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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Things Tolkien never stated but that you always assumed.
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Arannir
Valinor

Apr 25 2013, 1:09pm

Post #1 of 39 (1178 views)
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Things Tolkien never stated but that you always assumed. Can't Post

Are there any?


I will have to think about more, but one thing I always assumed is that the marriage between Eomer and Lothriel was an arranged marriage. It seems too much of a coincidence for them to fall in love imho (although not impossible, of course) and politically it seems very logical for both Imrahil and Eomer.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Apr 25 2013, 1:16pm

Post #2 of 39 (664 views)
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A couple of things... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Blond Legolas

2. Beardless Aragorn

3. Orcs retaining at least a measure of Elven long-life.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Ermer
The Shire


Apr 25 2013, 10:34pm

Post #3 of 39 (585 views)
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Gollum [In reply to] Can't Post

That Gollum was 'like a starved frog' but not ACTUALLY a starved frog (I believe I saw one adaptation of him as an actual frog)Tongue


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 25 2013, 10:47pm

Post #4 of 39 (610 views)
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Assumptions never verified [In reply to] Can't Post

The Woses (Ghan-Buri-Ghan) made the Pukel-men of Dunharrow.

Frodo's mithril-shirt could turn away knives from the Black Riders. It's Bilbo who says it might, and he seems to say it without authority, more that he wishes it were true for Frodo's sake. And since Frodo's been stabbed once by them, I'd like to think that something (i.e., the mail shirt) would prevent it happening again.

There was a stray Ent in the North Farthing.

Good question!


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 25 2013, 11:40pm

Post #5 of 39 (538 views)
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I always figured that was an Ent Wife [In reply to] Can't Post

Wanted Merry to mention that to Treebeard in the worst way.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Apr 26 2013, 12:21am

Post #6 of 39 (529 views)
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That Sauron was an eye by the time of the 3rd age! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2013, 12:52am

Post #7 of 39 (564 views)
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that [In reply to] Can't Post

 
that balrog wings tasted good. especially with honey-mustard dipping sauce.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 26 2013, 12:52am)


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Apr 26 2013, 8:18am

Post #8 of 39 (484 views)
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That the Valar came to Middle-earth in the War of Wrath [In reply to] Can't Post

It was recently pointed out to me in another thread that Tolkien never mentions any Valar in the War of Wrath. I always assumed that they were there and that their god-like power was what destroyed Beleriand. Apparently, not all fans agree on this.

I also assumed that the Stone-giants were human-like in appearance. Peter Jackson's living stone version really threw me the first time I saw it.


dreamflower
Lorien

Apr 26 2013, 1:14pm

Post #9 of 39 (494 views)
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Always assumed [In reply to] Can't Post

That Frodo was raised by Merry's parents in Buckland between the time of his parent's death and his adoption by Bilbo. (It would account why he was so close to a cousin 14 years his junior.)

That the Fell Winter could have been the reason that Bilbo became more serious and set in his ways before Gandalf came along to awaken his dormant Tookish side.

That most of the things hobbits had that were not seen in the rest of Middle-earth were made by Dwarves (umbrellas, clocks, etc.)

That Merry's and Pippin's quick recoveries from their injuries in battle were partially due to lingering effects of the Ent draught.


dreamflower
Lorien

Apr 26 2013, 1:21pm

Post #10 of 39 (470 views)
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Chance if chance you call it [In reply to] Can't Post

JRRT did not seem at all fond of arranged marriages in his world (aside from the ones HE arranged, LOL!)

In other words, no coincidences in M-e. OTOH, it could have been partly arranged--Imrahil taking a chance on introducing his daughter in the hopes that they'd fall in love. Yes, there's a political advantage there, but with Tolkien's love of parallelism, I'm guessing that he had a love match in mind. (It would parallel the match between Faramir--Imrahil's nephew--and Eowyn).


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Apr 26 2013, 4:49pm

Post #11 of 39 (433 views)
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Nice one. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll have you know it took a heroic act on my part to save my laptop from death via caffeine by sacrificially spewing coffee on my shirt instead. These boards are costing me a fortune in laundry detergent. I am looking into switching to water in the mornings...


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment

(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Apr 26 2013, 4:50pm)


elaen32
Gondor

Apr 26 2013, 5:44pm

Post #12 of 39 (475 views)
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A few assumptions- some more serious than others..... [In reply to] Can't Post

(Second attempt since my browser crashed as I sent the last!)

That Elves, Hobbits etc have pointy ears- I can't find anywhere in Tolkien that mentions this, although admittedly there is much that I have not read

That Eowyn had been betrothed to Theodred but that the marriage had never occurred due to the treachery of Wormtongue (an aristocratic woman of her age in that sort of culture was very unlikely to be unmarried let alone not even betrothed. Theodred seems to be the only likely candidate, even though he is her cousin)

That orcs have poor fashion sense and smell bad

That Gimli and Legolas are both only children and that their mothers are around in the background

That Faramir, with his love of lore, wizards and elves would have been a great Tolkien geek on these boards if he had been born a few millenia later

That Thorin is NOT hot in the real Middle-earth (Alas!)

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 26 2013, 5:58pm

Post #13 of 39 (401 views)
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I really like thinking of book-Faramir as a TORN member. Great thought. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elizabeth
Valinor


Apr 26 2013, 6:37pm

Post #14 of 39 (456 views)
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About those ears: [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien described Bilbo this way, for purposes of illustration in a letter to Houghton Mifflin (c. 1938):

Quote
I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf).


The reference to "elvish" ears could mean he saw Elves as having pointed ears, although some analysts have pointed out that he may have just been referencing elves of popular folklore.








elaen32
Gondor

Apr 26 2013, 6:43pm

Post #15 of 39 (386 views)
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Thank you Elizabeth [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't know about this reference. I wonder how, in folklore, that pointed ears came to represent " otherness", rather than some other feature. I imagine that's deep in the mists of time!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 26 2013, 6:43pm

Post #16 of 39 (414 views)
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Too bad the movie-makers didn't see that letter [In reply to] Can't Post

Not that I'm a fan of hairy feet and regret their less-hairy choice, and maybe audiences wouldn't either, but the movie hobbits didn't seem to have "feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur." It was more patchy and wispy. I suppose it would have made them seem like Pan or various goat-men figures from mythology. The latter were furry from the waist down, not just the ankles, but the impression might be the same.


Elthir
Gondor

Apr 26 2013, 7:57pm

Post #17 of 39 (408 views)
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a further 'point' (pun alert)... [In reply to] Can't Post

... note also the date of the letter Elizabeth referenced, 1938 -- as, around the same time, Tolkien noted that Elvish ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than human ears -- in a linguistic text called Etymologies, in an entry for the base LAS.

So even if the letter does not refer to Tolkien's Elves, it seems Tolkien thought his Elves had 'more' pointed ears than humans at this time.


However it's not known if Tolkien held to that idea in the 1950s and 1960s.

Around 1960 Tolkien [essentially] revised his entry for LAS in a new text called Words, Phrases And Passages, and even though JRRT still notes a possible relationship between Elvish 'leaf related' words [base LAS] and Elvish 'ear related' words [base SLAS], here he drops any actual comparison to Elvish ears and Human ears.


In other words, the specific description [at least] of Elvish ears appears to be dropped by 1960, or around this time -- again if one compares what Tolkien writes about words derived from (S)LAS- in both Etymologies and the updated text Words, Phrases, and Passages.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 26 2013, 8:00pm)


Elthir
Gondor

Apr 26 2013, 8:08pm

Post #18 of 39 (419 views)
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Entwives were not nearly... [In reply to] Can't Post

... tall enough though... assuming Entwives were of similar enough height to Ents anyway Wink


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 11:17am

Post #19 of 39 (414 views)
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Assumption: the characters are white, and "straight" [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think the text has much to say on either the subject of skin colour or sexual orientation. The story isn't about these matters.

I was first reading these stories in the 1970s London suburbs. Most of the people I knew were white, and homosexuality was not something being discussed much around me - I guess I populated Middle-earth based on the social norms I saw around me (insofar as I thought about it at all). A friend at school did suggest a pair of the characters as a gay couple, but we were young enough that anything about sex was a matter for puerile sniggering: he wasn't advancing this as a serious idea. I only even discovered I'd been assuming "white and straight" later, when I tried the thought experiment of imagining alternatives.

So, as came up in another thread. ( http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=589050#589050 ) if you want to imagine casting Grace Jones as one of the Guards of the Citadel, the text does not contradict you.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowim I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 12:07pm

Post #20 of 39 (333 views)
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ha! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'll have you know it took a heroic act on my part to save my laptop from death via caffeine by sacrificially spewing coffee on my shirt instead. These boards are costing me a fortune in laundry detergent. I am looking into switching to water in the mornings...


is it wrong that this made me laugh out loud, even though it also made me empathize with your new laundry chore?

sincere apologies!

i can recommend two possible solutions:

1. "lol guard" -- a revolutionary material used by nasa. it's light, transparent, and wraps itself around your laptop like a gossamer cocoon. developed by white-shirted mission control scientists because astronauts are +really+ funny (who knew?).

2. "tide-al springs" -- proctor & gamble's debut into the designer bottled water market. made from h20 derived from the purest, antediluvian springs, with a generous serving of foaming detergent. spit up on your shirt? no problem! you're actually +washing it+.


many cheers, and good luck! ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 27 2013, 12:09pm)


malickfan
Gondor

Apr 27 2013, 12:39pm

Post #21 of 39 (375 views)
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I've always assumed that Celeborn and Sam left the havens togther, with Cirdan [In reply to] Can't Post

-Even though it is left entirely open to speculation in the book.

Celeborn was said to have the last living memories of the elven days, but there was no record of the day he left the havens-just as Sam's journey over sea was only rumoured-I always kinda assumed they left together- as sam would be reunited with Frodo and Celeborn with Galadriel, with sams' fixation with elves it would be a nice reward for him to set sail with the two oldest left in M.E, and it be a good act of closure on the story. As for Cirdan I've always got the impression he didn't leave with Gandalf and Co, but somewhen before the death of Arwen (the havens seem to be abaondoned by the time of Arwen's death, and legolas has to build his own ship) Cirdan was said to wait until the last ship set sail-and he was older than Celeborn so unless Celeborn and/ or Sam set sail by themselves he too left with the 'last living memory' of the elder days:


http://paulashwellreviews.wordpress.com/...e-tolkien-fans-only/

As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said All is now ready.

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Apr 27 2013, 2:17pm

Post #22 of 39 (317 views)
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Either solution is preferable to the third option... [In reply to] Can't Post

which is giving up TORn! (I am leaning toward Solution #2, however. Do you suppose it also gets out honey-mustard sauce? Cool)


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment



Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 3:48pm

Post #23 of 39 (305 views)
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most certainmentally!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

(breaks open a new pack...)

here you go....

one drawback -- when in use, you are likely to be perceived as having contracted hydrophobia.


cheers. --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Apr 28 2013, 10:15am

Post #24 of 39 (278 views)
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Might not be such a bad thing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

one drawback -- when in use, you are likely to be perceived as having contracted hydrophobia.



Then I wouldn't have to share my balrog wings. Evil


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment



Frostbitten
The Shire


May 2 2013, 3:49pm

Post #25 of 39 (185 views)
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Gollum=FROG?? [In reply to] Can't Post

lol. Yep, that was one of the old animated ones. I took one glance and said, "That's not Smeagol, that's a frog."

“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”

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