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Frostbitten
The Shire
May 2 2013, 10:47pm
Post #51 of 57
(188 views)
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You're totally right about Tolkien. I think he attempted to put a lot of his emotion about WWI into his works. It's apparent throughout LOTR and The Silmarillion his feeling of loss of life in man and nature.
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 3 2013, 11:59am
Post #52 of 57
(173 views)
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very interesting thought, re the kinslayings being foreshadowings!
fwiw, according to the silmarilion timeline... i think orcs were already in existence at that point.
and -- mae govannen! -- welcome to the reading room, frostbitten. : )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 3 2013, 12:01pm
Post #53 of 57
(176 views)
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hi frostbitten --
in case you missed it, elthir posted a great, succinct timeline re orcs upthread:
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=599636#599636
this thread has a lot of +great+ thoughts... i probably won't be able to respond to them in depth until after work. a girl has patrol duty.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 3 2013, 2:17pm
Post #54 of 57
(171 views)
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Thanks Maciliel. I thought I would post the longer, even more boring version. Probably no one will read it unless they need a sleep aid, but if anyone wants to check my brief chronology earlier, or wants to quibble with the way I phrased things earlier, I based it on a longer post of mine, copied and pasted below.
With beautiful use of colours! But I will quibble with me for a moment...
... in slight 'correction' to what I said earlier, as I wasn't reading Tolkien's mind [obviously] while he wrote The Lord of the Rings -- what I should say rather is that Melkor creating Orcs [and not needing to corrupt already living beings] was in place before The Lord of the Rings was begun -- and seemingly returned to briefly, once the writing of the book [not all the appendices necessarily] was mostly 'finished'...
... thus the old idea of Melkor 'creating' orcs from stone and hatred would appear to be in place during the writing of the Treebeard chapter at least. If someone has evidence to contradict this, or anything below actually, please post it.
__________
1916-17 (Fall of Gondolin, later read at Exeter College in 1920): Melko made the Orcs 'bred of subterranean heats and slime' and they were the 'foul broodlings of Melko'
1920s: Tolkien was largely concerned with poetry in these years. His poetry includes references to orcs, but not necessarily any that indicate origin. Or that is, I'm too lazy at the moment to try any find any such references.
1930 (Qenta Noldorinwa): the Dark Lord now makes Orcs 'of stone' with 'hearts of hatred'
Mid to late 1930s: (Quenta Silmarillion) Melkor still makes Orcs: 'yet the Orcs were not made until he had looked upon the Elves.' (...) 'The Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.'
1940s and finishing up The Lord of the Rings:
Tolkien, perhaps while writing The Lord of the Rings, possibly shifts from Morgoth creating Orcs to Morgoth needing to pervert something already living, as Frodo thinks might be the case, although right now I'm unable to exactly date this passage from Frodo (The Tower of Cirith Ungol);
'No, they eat and drink Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them;...'
Appendix F merely states that the orcs were first 'bred' by the Dark Power in the Elder Days. Also Treebeard notes a few things that might speak to chronology [and the Great Darkness], but I'll ignore these here.
Early 1950s: in The Annals of Aman as first written Melkor still 'made' orcs from something -- but the idea now enters 'Silmarillion related texts' that Melkor cannot create a true living being, as the Elf Pengolodh will argue -- and a darker tale is noted among the Wise of Eressea, one that says Morgoth captured and perverted Elves, twisting them into orcs.
Christopher Tolkien chose this idea for the 1977 Silmarillion -- along with other texts from this 'phase' of writing incidentally.
1954: in both letter 144 and (draft) letter 153 Tolkien essentially explains that Morgoth cannot create a spirit, and the orcs are corruptions -- leaving open the possibility of other kinds of makings, which would be puppet-like by comparison.
Later 1950s (or around this time anyway): Tolkien will question whether it could be true that Orcs were actually Elves in origin, and if they could be 'immortal' if so, for example, and he writes various origins in order to figure out things. I'll call these (collectively) the Myths Transformed orc related essays, and use Christopher Tolkien's numbering of the texts. The various ideas include:
A) Orcs possibly created out of the discords of the Music (text VII). Tolkien writes: 'Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs the Eldar believed that Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.'
B) Orcs created from beasts; also some Maiar early on (text VIII) -- possibly an Elvish element too, but seemingly JRRT then reverts to orcs simply being perverted beasts.
C) Orcs from Elves (probably later from Men), some Maiar early on (text IX)
D) Orcs created from Men, some Maiar early on (text X) in this essay, soon after Morgoth's return he will have a great number of Orcs to command -- as it was left to Sauron to produce great numbers of Orcs (from Men) while Morgoth was in captivity. Tolkien is aware that he will need to adjust the existing chronology in order to allow the possibility of this origin from Men.
1969 or later: two notes on Orcs now accompany one copy of text X -- that is, the Orcs from Men essay (or D above)
1) one of these notes carries a statement that denies an essential conception found in D -- and I have tried to explain this conception under D above -- the denial hails from the detail that this later note suggests Morgoth had great numbers of Orcs at the height of his power and still after his return from captivity. And to muddy things further here, this may be a draft version for a variant passage that does not include this detail!
2) this short note concerns the spelling of the word orc: here Tolkien notes that he will spell it ork, just as he had noted in text IX (or C above), where Orcs were from Elves [and 'probably later also of Men'].
I think Christopher Tolkien's point with these notes is that they might throw some measure of doubt upon the seemingly 'final' idea that 'regular Orcs' were bred from Men (text X). That said, there is another late text which appears to have Elves stating that Men are the source for Orcs:
Late text (lacks date other than final period of Tolkien's writings): author's note (note 5) to The Druedain:
'To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock the Eldar answered: 'Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his shadow;...'
I can't really tell if this description is later or earlier than the two notes dated 1969 or later.
In my opinion Tolkien at least seems headed for the idea that Orcs were created from Men, although he never himself published much more than that the Orcs were made in mockery of the Elves (at least Treebeard says this much in the book) -- which as we see, need not necessarily mean they were made from Elves in any case.
Again corrections welcome. ZZZZ.
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Frostbitten
The Shire
May 3 2013, 3:07pm
Post #55 of 57
(159 views)
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Thanks for the link. I think in the end, JRRT simply decided that Melkor had created the Orcs in numerous fashions, and it makes sense that way. No two Orcs are the same!
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
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Frostbitten
The Shire
May 3 2013, 3:10pm
Post #56 of 57
(163 views)
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It says Sauron could not "create" them, but earlier we established that he carved them out of various forms. However, I assume everyone is firm in believing that a majority were bred from the earth, and that Morgoth demented numbers of Men and Elves.
It's quite confusing in many a passage, but I think we have founded a good idea of when and where they came from. Thanks so much for this great description!
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
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Frostbitten
The Shire
May 3 2013, 3:11pm
Post #57 of 57
(169 views)
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I think "mockery" is a metaphor, because the Elves existing at that time had not been changed into perversions, it was the earliest Eldar from Beleriand.
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
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