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Can we talk about how uncomfortable the Fellowship's greeting in Caras Galadhon actually is?

erynion
Lorien

Apr 22 2013, 7:22pm

Post #1 of 14 (663 views)
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Can we talk about how uncomfortable the Fellowship's greeting in Caras Galadhon actually is? Can't Post

(warning: this is not meant to be a serious literary debate lol I'm half-joking. But let's have a look at it anyway, shall we? ^^)

Having only just got over that whole blindfolding business with Legolas and Gimli, the Fellowship isn’t even greeted by Galadriel, who leaves such dull formalities to Celeborn. He, however, just goes ahead and tells Aragorn he looks old (XD!) which could even be read as a passive-aggressive stab at a mortal man intending to marry Celeborn’s granddaughter. He goes on and doesn’t even seem to remember Legolas’ name, instead addressing him with “son of Thranduil” when even the unwelcome Dwarf gets a “Gimli son of Glóin” out of him. (Passive-aggressiveness also continues with a hint that Mirkwood Elves don’t visit Lothlórien enough.) Furthermore, upon hearing of Gandalf’s apparent death, the first thing Celeborn does is have a go at poor Haldír for not telling him - in Elvish no less, embarrassing him in front of many Elves present, when he had no way of knowing this news. Next Celeborn basically insults the Fellowship and most importantly Gimli, saying he wouldn’t have allowed them in if he’d known about Moria - and to top it all off, Galadriel then openly argues with him about this outburst!
HOW awkward?!
Let anyone call Elves purely wise, mellow and flawless again Laugh


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 22 2013, 8:54pm

Post #2 of 14 (437 views)
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Not only that, but [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel then telepathically tempts/interrogates them. How's that for "Hello, pleased to meet you?"

I agree it's a chilly reception. Nothing like the welcome the hobbits receive in Rivendell. A feast! Granted, the Lorien Elves are mourning Gandalf after they get the news, so a feast doesn't seem right, but the travelers seem socially ignored while they're there. No one else speaks Westron in that city?

It has always struck me as odd that Galadriel and Celeborn never had a meal with them until they left Lorien and had that little picnic. Unless that's a sign that they wanted them gone. :) It seems like the Lord and Lady should have given the travelers some advice, or at least listened to their woes and indecisions, after the loss of Gandalf. I don't really buy that "I'm not a counselor" bit from Galadriel. They needed some advice, and she had some to give.

Maybe the point of it all was to show how estranged people were in Middle-earth and that places like Bree and Rivendell where different races could mingle were the exception, not the rule. The travelers had chilly receptions in Rohan and Gondor too.


Erúmer
The Shire

Apr 22 2013, 9:09pm

Post #3 of 14 (425 views)
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We all know [In reply to] Can't Post

We all know that Celeborn gets grumpy on his bad hair days Laugh


Eowyn3
Rivendell

Apr 23 2013, 2:31am

Post #4 of 14 (368 views)
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Give him some of Thorin's shampoo/conditioner!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

" He has just as much reason to go to war as you do. Why can he not fight for those he loves?"


erynion
Lorien

Apr 23 2013, 5:07am

Post #5 of 14 (365 views)
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Thorin's secret ingredient [In reply to] Can't Post

Lush Curly Wurly? Laugh


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Apr 23 2013, 7:19am

Post #6 of 14 (373 views)
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One bit I did like from Lorien [In reply to] Can't Post

Was that Galadriel thought that she was been clever in tempting the Fellowship in offers to quit the quest, but she admitted that Frodo bettered her in tempting her by offering her the Ring, and this is from Galadriel one of the oldest and most powerful Elves in Middle-Earth been out-psyched by a 50 year old halfling!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 23 2013, 12:21pm

Post #7 of 14 (356 views)
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i also like that aspect [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... but to do true justice to frodo, he's not playing any psychological games with her, so it's not quid pro quo.

he is just offering. and it cannot be +that+ easy to do so. we've already seen that the ring has some power over him.

i think this suggests that, at least at one point, frodo would have been strong enough to destroy the ring, it's just that by the time he got to mount doom, the ring had gotten so much stronger, and he so much weaker, that he failed at that point.

(love this thread, btw...)


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


erynion
Lorien

Apr 23 2013, 4:01pm

Post #8 of 14 (324 views)
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This makes me remember something I was talking to someone about at HobbitCon... [In reply to] Can't Post

Jay Johnstone (this amazing artist) mentioned how characters throughout the series were often guided by the Valar in what they were doing, even without noticing it themselves - he was using Isildur's sudden burst of inspiration to cut the Ring from Sauron's hand, and the Ring later getting lost in water (Ulmo's realm) as an example. I suppose you could say Frodo was guided in this way quite often, and possibly one of those moments would have been when he offered Galadriel the Ring? But that would mean whichever Vala decided to do this was only interested in Galadriel's personality rather than saving Middle Earth, as it's actually quite a risk Shocked


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 23 2013, 4:03pm)


Rostron2
Gondor


Apr 23 2013, 6:17pm

Post #9 of 14 (314 views)
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This is what happens [In reply to] Can't Post

When elves don't get to be the producers of their own films.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 23 2013, 9:20pm

Post #10 of 14 (289 views)
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lol!!!!! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


dik-dik
Lorien


Apr 24 2013, 10:32am

Post #11 of 14 (292 views)
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I must say I never found anything ill-mannered about that passage. [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe it just seems uncomfortable to the eyes of the modern reader.
As far as Galadriel's silence is concerned, maybe it was a custom in Middle-earth for the royal couple to issue a single welcome through the husband? She does stand up to show respect to her guests, so maybe this was considered proper enough.
As for Celeborn's lines to Aragorn and Legolas, I take them to imply compassion for their plights, and find nothing awkward about Celeborn not mentioning Legolas's name - maybe it's a form of honorific address? I'm not familiar with ancient mannerisms even in our own world, so for me this would not be unimaginable in Middle-earth.
The rebuke to Haldir - maybe if Celeborn had known, he would have greeted them in a different manner (with these ancient proper conduct protocols, you never know Smile ), or would have postponed the welcome till the suffering company had rested? If I were in Celeborn's shoes, I'd also naturally assume that my guard would have taken an account of the company's doings before sending me information, so I'm not surprised at the slightest at his reaction, neither at the fact that he addresses Haldir in their own native tongue and spares him embarrassment in front of the entire Fellowship.
I find nothing insulting about Celeborn 'freaking out' at hearing about a living and very much active balrog a few miles away from Lothlorien; he does lose his temper, but he's distressed, and he apologizes afterwards: so for me, nowhere as offensive as let's say Aragorn before the doors of Meduseld. Tongue
Galadriel's rebuke of Celeborn is also fine with me, and I fully approved of it; he did speak unjustly in his outburst; but as far as I am concerned, that can happen to anyone. And being a kinsman to Thingol, I'll warrant Celeborn has quite the temper to overcome. At least Galadriel assured the Fellowship of their welcome, despite all the doom & gloom that they brought with them.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


(This post was edited by dik-dik on Apr 24 2013, 10:38am)


erynion
Lorien

Apr 24 2013, 11:17am

Post #12 of 14 (269 views)
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Actually it does mention that getting up for their guests is a custom of the Elves.. [In reply to] Can't Post

So they're definitely being polite. Well, to start with. Tolkien doesn't ever use many descriptives around dialogue, so whatever his characters say has to be approached in the same way stage plays are read: What does this character say and what do other characters say about them? And that's all you have to go with most of the time. In that case, Celeborn is sounding very very pissed and Galadriel sounds like she's just got out of bed and wants her hubby to shut up. Laugh

Anyway, of course it's not unjust. It's just not... perfect.


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 24 2013, 11:18am)


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 24 2013, 5:00pm

Post #13 of 14 (247 views)
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*chuckles* [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Galadriel sounds like she's just got out of bed and wants her hubby to shut up.

Apt and funny description. She sounds spacey at this point. Not the talkative, articulate person at the Mirror, or later at their picnic.


erynion
Lorien

Apr 24 2013, 8:41pm

Post #14 of 14 (321 views)
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quite.. [In reply to] Can't Post

she's positively hyper later on! I do wonder why she's flailing her arms so much. sometimes I do blame the animated LotR for having such overly animated movements...

 
 

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