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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Issues about the White Council

Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 23 2013, 11:01am


Views: 1294
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Issues about the White Council Can't Post

I have a lot of issues with that scene and would like to discuss it here.

1. The White council was not a four member union. Besides Gandalf, Saruman, galadirel and Elrond there were many elves (especially Cirdan) and if IIRC Radagast too. So I'm still not sure if it should be called the White Council. And I'm surprised because I think it could have been easily "filled up". Like all the unnamed dwarves and elves present at the Council of Elrond, here too elves could have been there. In a 4-member meeting the council seems sort of empty.

2. Disagreeing Saruman. I know that's what Saruman should have been doing at this time, but his behaviour was so obvious that even a kid could tell from seeing that he was scheming some plans of his own. And what's more Gandalf seems to be intimidated by his presence. When Saruman first appears Gandalf first looks uncomfortable before he puts on a fake-ish smile. This shouldn't have been. Okay, Gandalf is not expected to be best buds with Saruman at this point but he admired Saruman's wisdom and power. That clearly doesn't show up.

3. I don't like Gandalf answering to everyone's questions in the scene at all. It makes him look inferior to all the three. Why does he have to give proofs and all? Why does he have to account for Elrond's question about orcs etc etc? Being a Maia, he's obviously superior to both Elrond and Galadriel. And the scene actually looks more like the two of them (leaving out Galadriel) interrogating Gandalf. Don't like a bit.

4. Telepathetic Galadriel? In FOTR I imagined Galadriel to be able to talk telepathetically to Frodo because he was less powerful than her. But in the council scene, it seems Galadriel is superior to Saruman himself! She and Gandalf enjoying a telepathetic conversation while Saruman goes on babbling! This is so false. Again, Saruman is the superior one since he's a Maia. If Galadriel and gandalf are using telepathy, it's expected that it won't get unnoticed by Saruman!

5. This is from the next scene between Galadriel and Gandalf. Why does Gandalf bow in front of Galadriel? Galadriel is in no way superior in power and knowledge than Gandalf. It's actually the opposite. I'm afraid this is on the basis of Philippa Boyens' completely false statement about Galadriel being the most powerful being on Middle-earth. And if the both of them are friends, then I don't think friends usually bow to each other. Wink


Well, that's the lot. I found the scene quite boring. The performances were awesome, really! I cannot imagine the two most powerful wizards and two most powerful Elves in a single scene, but if they had kept the facts straight it could have been so much better.

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?

(This post was edited by Smeagol Bagginsess on Apr 23 2013, 11:05am)

Subject User Time
Issues about the White Council Smeagol Bagginsess Send a private message to Smeagol Bagginsess Apr 23 2013, 11:01am
    My take on it. Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 23 2013, 11:34am
    Yes. Radagast was technically a member of the Council, but... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 23 2013, 2:42pm
        This... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 23 2013, 3:09pm
        That's a very good point MatthewJer18 Send a private message to MatthewJer18 Apr 23 2013, 4:16pm
            Also, painjoiker Send a private message to painjoiker Apr 23 2013, 4:36pm
    Agreed about Philippa Boyens' comment about Galadriel being "the most powerful being in Middle-earth" Radagast-Aiwendil Send a private message to Radagast-Aiwendil Apr 23 2013, 4:39pm
        the boyens quote Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 23 2013, 6:40pm
            What amuses me so much Radagast-Aiwendil Send a private message to Radagast-Aiwendil Apr 23 2013, 6:51pm
                peter, peter... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 23 2013, 6:55pm
                (i tease peter jackson) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
                Zing! I want Cobert to be present at all scripting decisions, if we cannot do so, for he AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 24 2013, 3:48am
            Sauron dubulous Send a private message to dubulous Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
                It needs to be put under a microscope if that is her sincire opinion and if it is going to colour AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 24 2013, 3:55am
    Telepathic Galadriel Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Apr 23 2013, 4:43pm
        And one does not mess with one's mother-in-law! Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 23 2013, 4:48pm
        Quite True - he almost gave her a look like - oh well, here is the (more powerful) mother-in law checking in on me again ltnjmy Send a private message to ltnjmy Apr 23 2013, 6:19pm
    I agree MorgolKing Send a private message to MorgolKing Apr 23 2013, 5:49pm
        I took it as... sauget.diblosio Send a private message to sauget.diblosio Apr 23 2013, 7:13pm
    Telepathic communication Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 23 2013, 5:55pm
        Doesn't Saruman... cats16 Send a private message to cats16 Apr 23 2013, 6:10pm
            It's not the rings Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 23 2013, 6:20pm
                Sorry I should clarify cats16 Send a private message to cats16 Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
                    Rings or telepathy Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 23 2013, 7:16pm
                        Haha thank you cats16 Send a private message to cats16 Apr 23 2013, 7:23pm
                            No problem! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 23 2013, 7:29pm
    Huge agreement on 1 (Ahh, Glorfindel, where art thou), 3 (Gandalf is no one's lackey) And 5(Ainur are higher than Elves) AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 23 2013, 6:09pm
    My thoughts dubulous Send a private message to dubulous Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
        I agree with your points, dubulous Kristin Thompson Send a private message to Kristin Thompson Apr 24 2013, 1:46am
            Galadriel... Guillaume Send a private message to Guillaume Apr 24 2013, 2:01am
                Again, just talking about the book and not the film, Kristin Thompson Send a private message to Kristin Thompson Apr 24 2013, 2:41am
            Telepathy in your book Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 24 2013, 2:38am
                Thanks! Kristin Thompson Send a private message to Kristin Thompson Apr 24 2013, 3:10am
                    Magic Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 24 2013, 4:02am
            Galadriel vanishing Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 24 2013, 3:28am
                Passage of time Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 24 2013, 4:05am
                Good explanation! Eleniel Send a private message to Eleniel Apr 24 2013, 6:41am
                    100% Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 7:29am
            In some places I must disagree. In others not. Glorfindel and Cirdan would be no more confusing AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 24 2013, 4:13am
                A discussion re-visited ;-) Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 7:28am
                    I can see the meaning of the defense, but it doesn't work for me. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 12:16am
                        Well, I do talk to people who have no lore-interest... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 25 2013, 6:51am
                            Interesting, for I often hear the opposite from those not familliar with the lore. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 9:58pm
                                Well... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 26 2013, 6:47am
            Galadriel's disappearance dubulous Send a private message to dubulous Apr 24 2013, 7:08am
            Introducing other Council members need not be confusing Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 2:12pm
                I wonder if Cirdans appearance would be confusing to the general audience? imin Send a private message to imin Apr 24 2013, 2:19pm
                    Círdan did already appear in Jackson's RotK Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 2:35pm
                        And how much did we see of him there? Or hear from him? or have anything spoken about him? imin Send a private message to imin Apr 24 2013, 3:32pm
                            He was also shown in closer detail in the prologue... Eleniel Send a private message to Eleniel Apr 24 2013, 3:35pm
                            Círdan Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 8:33pm
                                no i completely agree imin Send a private message to imin Apr 24 2013, 9:41pm
                I actually think a skilled director leaves such characters out... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 2:25pm
                    That would depend on circumstances... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 2:49pm
                        However... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 2:57pm
                            Well I would contend that the White Council is an established entity within Tolkien's canon... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 3:14pm
                                I certainly have nothing against what you describe... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 3:22pm
                                I have to admit that my disappointment comes from sauget.diblosio Send a private message to sauget.diblosio Apr 24 2013, 3:30pm
                                    Precisely. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 12:17am
                    But such characters have already appeared sauget.diblosio Send a private message to sauget.diblosio Apr 24 2013, 2:59pm
                    Then why not pair the Council of Elrond down to none save Elrond and The Fellowship??? AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 12:23am
                        I commented on this before... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 25 2013, 6:48am
                            You have all the free people accounted for with the fellowhsip alone. No need for anyone else.. . except AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 9:45pm
                                Well, exactly... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 26 2013, 6:50am
                Amen. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 12:21am
        It gives a great many false notions and misconceptions to the many audience members who AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 24 2013, 3:14am
    I was under the impression Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Apr 23 2013, 9:51pm
    I agree with all your points Elenorflower Send a private message to Elenorflower Apr 24 2013, 11:25am
    problems with the WC IMO Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Apr 24 2013, 12:47pm
        The tension wasn't invented...? Saruman was like this in the book // QuackingTroll Send a private message to QuackingTroll Apr 24 2013, 12:55pm
            I'm going strictly by the films here. Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Apr 24 2013, 12:59pm
                Well, what if Gandalf and Saruman make up in film 2 or 3 QuackingTroll Send a private message to QuackingTroll Apr 24 2013, 1:19pm
                    wishful thinking IMO to be honest Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Apr 24 2013, 1:36pm
        I said this earlier, but i never got the feeling that sauget.diblosio Send a private message to sauget.diblosio Apr 24 2013, 2:54pm
            I guess people see things differently Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Apr 24 2013, 3:27pm
    The one change I'd make Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Apr 24 2013, 1:40pm
    I also didn't care for how sheepish Gandalf was. RosieLass Send a private message to RosieLass Apr 24 2013, 4:01pm
    I had many problems with the way the White Council was handled. jtarkey Send a private message to jtarkey Apr 25 2013, 4:51pm
        They couldn't resist the lure of the SUPER drama of discovery. It would have been SOO much more plausible if they had stuck to the Appendices AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 10:09pm
    concerning authority and the Istari Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Apr 25 2013, 10:23pm
        Prophets/Mystics. . . though they don't always hold to the prescribed edicts. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 10:37pm

 
 
 

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