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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Bilbo kills an Orc
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 21 2013, 6:43pm

Post #1 of 48 (1501 views)
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Bilbo kills an Orc Can't Post

I was pissed off by that a lot.

I know it doesn't look special to many, but imo Sting plays a very special role in TH and LOTR. And the very reason Bilbo names it "Sting" is because the first thing he kills with it is a spider. I was actually surprised seeing Bilbo kill a warg and then an orc in the climax, remembering the scene from Rivendell where Balin says "swords are named .." bit.

In short, imo Bilbo killing a warg + orc is completely out of sync of what he would do in Mirkwood. And a lot of the emotional connection with Sting, I think, is lost with this.

Besides that, how can someone who is handling a sword for the first time kill a well-built full grown orc? And so easily? I think that makes no sense at all.

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 21 2013, 7:09pm

Post #2 of 48 (709 views)
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Yup, action takes priority over story [In reply to] Can't Post

...and as a result Bilbo becomes a well-trained orc-slaying warrior. It's just one of those annoying things that happen in movie adaptations, I'm afraid. Just do what I do and pretend 80% of the film didn't actually happen and then enjoy the rest.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 21 2013, 7:37pm

Post #3 of 48 (642 views)
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Yes, should he not have named his sword "Baby Orcrist"? [In reply to] Can't Post

The orcs/baddies in the films do seem to conform to that movie "1 Cowboy, 10 Indians" rule where the background stooges are utterly useless when the film calls upon them to be, just kind of standing there and waiting for the good guy to kill them. But in that Orc's defense, wouldn't you be somewhat stunned if a shrieking, sword-wielding Martin Freeman jumping on you from of nowhere? Tongue

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Apr 21 2013, 8:05pm

Post #4 of 48 (667 views)
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To be honest, the entire scene bugs me. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Bilbo slaying an orc thing is among the top issues for me as well, though. PJ opted to give Bilbo his big moment here, therefore diluting the moment to come in Mirkwood. I suspect this only came about because of the change from 2 films to 3, otherwise we probably wouldn't have had all this Azog-almost-kills-Thorin-Let's-get-all-dramatic stuff.

Add this development onto the the "climax" of the Thorin-Azog plot (which feels very hollow to me) and all the CGI-ness of the scene, and it's just a very boring sequence for me (especially the slo-mo Thorin/Azog showdown - I just kept thinking "Is all this really necessary?").

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Apr 21 2013, 11:53pm)


LordotRings93
Rohan


Apr 21 2013, 8:13pm

Post #5 of 48 (606 views)
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I don't mind it [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo had to have some highlight in the film now that it is split into three, and he has to seem somewhat competent. Killing the warg was a complete accident, and pure luck for Bilbo. And with him slaying the orc, you can see how frightened and confused he is while doing it.

I'm glad they had Bilbo do something heroic. It makes me like him all the more. With adaptions, some things have to be changed to fit the medium. With film, some things, especially characterization, have to be altered to fit a movie-going audience.

Lover of Medieval Fantasy
"I know what I must do. It's just... I'm afraid to do it."


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 21 2013, 8:30pm

Post #6 of 48 (584 views)
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They could have shown Bilbo's growing heroism without his killing anything... [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo doesn't use a sword for the entirety of all three LotR novels, even during the Scouring of the Shire, if I'm not mistaken.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Apr 21 2013, 8:49pm

Post #7 of 48 (586 views)
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One of My Favorite Scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

This scene takes place right after Bilbo once a for all throws in his lot with the dwarves. He is not holding back any longer. And remember that Thorin saved his life not too long ago when Thorin didn't particularly care if Bilbo lived or died. Bilbo sees a lost cause and his Tookish side takes over and he goes to Thorin's aid. This seems natural and right to me.

And it may be that this is a set-up scene that will make Bilbo's actions with the spiders more believable.


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 21 2013, 9:04pm

Post #8 of 48 (544 views)
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How's it going to make the spiders-scene more believabele? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And it may be that this is a set-up scene that will make Bilbo's actions with the spiders more believable.


Bilbo is invisible the whole time when he fights the spiders. Naturally, killing a spider when he is invisible is more in character for him than killing and orc in front of Azog himself.

As someone else pointed out, Bilbo's transition could have been pointed out without killing. I would have been okay if Bilbo had injured the orc. And then when the orc tries to kill him, all the dwarves jump in. THAT is a lot more sensible route. And it doesn't risk Bilbo's characterization.

I hate almost the whole scene till the coming of eagles. It was all okay untill Thorin's march.

The dumbest things which I found dumb from the scene:

1. Thorin's "epic" march towards Azog and then his instantaneous fall after a single hit. ( it might have been much better. And the fire on the trees did set up the mood for that. But PJ failed big time.)
2. Bilbo kills the orc. As I said, it's totally senseless for someone used to "conkers" to kill an orc. And in no way I think, this helps the spider-scene in Mirkwood.

3. What were all the dwarves doing there by then? Huh? In the beginning we get a dialogue "loyalty, honour, a willing heart." And it's totally inconsistent to the fact that the dwarves do absolutely nothing but watch untill Bilbo gets his shine! I know some of you would say it's important to give Bilbo more characterization, but that's where you miss! Bilbo's strength lies in courage ad not power. After getting inspired, he can stand up against fear but he does not has the strength to kill warriors. He is not a warrior!

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?


TheSexyBeard
Lorien

Apr 21 2013, 9:05pm

Post #9 of 48 (529 views)
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I didn't mind it [In reply to] Can't Post

I felt like it the sequence was there due to the 3 film split resulting in Bilbo not winning over the Dwarves if it had not been added. Finally got round to seeing AUJ for the second time and I think Bilbo kills the orc via the element of surprise and luck, he seems quite clumsy when attempting to kill the orc. Maybe it would have been more believable for some if it had been a weedier orc rather than the quite brutish looking one Bilbo kills in the film.

Yes, my username is terrible.


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 21 2013, 9:09pm

Post #10 of 48 (518 views)
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Sting! Sting! [In reply to] Can't Post

Then how do you think he's supposed to name "Sting"? In the book he named it that because it's the first thing he killed.
As someone pointed, should Bilbo rename his sword something related to orcs? Oh,oh that can't be. PJ's already made LOTR. Wink
Also, as I said, it reduces the emotional connect between Bilbo and Sting.

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Apr 21 2013, 9:26pm

Post #11 of 48 (528 views)
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Gotta agree with others here-- [In reply to] Can't Post

this scene is not a favorite of mine, owing largely to it's execution (and reliance on Azog). The pumped up drama seems forced and not particularly effective. And as someone said earlier, it is possible for Bilbo to be heroic and still have his first kill come later in the story, as it is in the book, so that it ties in better to Tolkien's mythology behind Sting. I was originally all for the switch from 2 to 3 films, because, the more Tolkien the better. But it's seeming more and more that that late decision led to a lot of bad choices being made.

The more i think about it, the more i realise that Jackson/Walsh/Boyens were much too quick to discard Tolkien this time around.


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Apr 21 2013, 9:45pm

Post #12 of 48 (504 views)
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Because this scene shows Bilbo can [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
And it may be that this is a set-up scene that will make Bilbo's actions with the spiders more believable.


Bilbo is invisible the whole time when he fights the spiders. Naturally, killing a spider when he is invisible is more in character for him than killing and orc in front of Azog himself.

As someone else pointed out, Bilbo's transition could have been pointed out without killing. I would have been okay if Bilbo had injured the orc. And then when the orc tries to kill him, all the dwarves jump in. THAT is a lot more sensible route. And it doesn't risk Bilbo's characterization.

I hate almost the whole scene till the coming of eagles. It was all okay untill Thorin's march.

The dumbest things which I found dumb from the scene:

1. Thorin's "epic" march towards Azog and then his instantaneous fall after a single hit. ( it might have been much better. And the fire on the trees did set up the mood for that. But PJ failed big time.)
2. Bilbo kills the orc. As I said, it's totally senseless for someone used to "conkers" to kill an orc. And in no way I think, this helps the spider-scene in Mirkwood.

3. What were all the dwarves doing there by then? Huh? In the beginning we get a dialogue "loyalty, honour, a willing heart." And it's totally inconsistent to the fact that the dwarves do absolutely nothing but watch untill Bilbo gets his shine! I know some of you would say it's important to give Bilbo more characterization, but that's where you miss! Bilbo's strength lies in courage ad not power. After getting inspired, he can stand up against fear but he does not has the strength to kill warriors. He is not a warrior!


kill giant spiders. Because up until this moment the movie-going audience has no reason to suppose he can. Besides, if he is going to become a real member of the company in Thorin's eyes he is going to have to fight for them. This moment occurs in the book at the killing of the giant spider. Tolkien writes that the dwarves begin to take Bilbo more seriously and he begins to become the leader of the company after this episode. PJ moved that up to this point. It may have been clumsy but from a film-making POV he thought he had to do it.

As to the other dwarves. Dwalin tried to come to Thorin's aid a almost fell out of the tree. Dori and Ori are being held up by Gandalf and the others are in pretty much the same pickle. They are able to save themselves when everyorc's attention is turned to Bilbo.


The Mitch King
Rohan


Apr 21 2013, 9:49pm

Post #13 of 48 (489 views)
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Hmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

So you have a problem with him killing a couple bad guys? The spider situation is much more reliant on Bilbo taking action and I'll bet no one will be thinking about that orc scene when Bilbo has to cut through all these spiders by himself. Of course I am assuming PJ won't put elves in the spider scene(which he better not).


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Apr 21 2013, 10:16pm

Post #14 of 48 (471 views)
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Alas [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So you have a problem with him killing a couple bad guys? The spider situation is much more reliant on Bilbo taking action and I'll bet no one will be thinking about that orc scene when Bilbo has to cut through all these spiders by himself. Of course I am assuming PJ won't put elves in the spider scene(which he better not).


PJ will be putting elves in the spider scene, unless he changes his mind.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 21 2013, 10:57pm

Post #15 of 48 (456 views)
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Bilbo is visible when he kills his first spider. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a little clarification:


Quote
Bilbo is invisible the whole time when he fights the spiders.


True, when he's fighting the lot of them, he's invisible. But in the book, Bilbo is not wearing the Ring when he first awakens to find a spider trying to wrap him up. He uses his sword to cut the webbing, then stab the spider; he then swoons, and when he awakens again he decides to give his sword a name.

I'd say that the "swooning" is the part that's most "in character" for Bilbo, at that point! Laugh

As far as that scene goes, Bilbo's fighting does not bother me; in fact, it brings to mind Merry's decision to attack the Witch King when he sees Eowyn in peril: "there is a seed of courage hidden (often deeply, it is true) in the heart of the fattest and most timid hobbit, waiting for some final and desperate danger to make it grow". Bilbo does not have time, at that point, to even consider naming his sword. I'm very interested in seeing how it's worked out in Mirkwood.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






StoneHex104
Rivendell

Apr 21 2013, 11:45pm

Post #16 of 48 (443 views)
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The Book is different from the Movie, get over it [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps it will play a bigger role in DOS.
HAHAHA you didn't expect Bilbo to survive without even defending himself? That's rubbish.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 22 2013, 12:08am

Post #17 of 48 (451 views)
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who's to say Bilbo will even be in the spider scene... [In reply to] Can't Post

with the rumors of Tauriel and Legolas battling spiders could it be possible they have changed this situation and taken it from Bilbo to give it to Tauriel so she has something important to do? I know there has been mention of elves dealing with spiders, but has there been any confirmation of Bilbo actually dealing with spiders?

I'm hoping for Bilbo and some spider killing Wink but I'm not gonna get my hopes up for him to battle multiple spiders. I think were gonna see more elves vs spiders than Bilbo vs spiders Unsure


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Apr 22 2013, 12:44am

Post #18 of 48 (412 views)
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Ugh... [In reply to] Can't Post

That would be the final nail in the coffin for me. I enjoyed AUJ for what it was, but to have Bilbo not take on the Spiders at all would be too much. Unsure

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 22 2013, 12:44am)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 22 2013, 1:03am

Post #19 of 48 (415 views)
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I hope they at least have Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post

fighting the spiders and maybe they get a bit overwhelming and the elves step in at the most. But I know with LOTR Jackson changed lines of dialogue and actions between characters. I'm hoping he doesn't do that here. But has anything with Bilbo fighting spiders been confirmed? I only know of the talk that was on here a while ago about Legolas and Tauriel fighting spiders. And with the change of dialogue and actions from LOTR springing to mind I'm wondering if they aren't going to do the same here. It would make Tauriel more important to the overall story rather than just being Thranduil's guard or whatever she is.


jtarkey
Rohan


Apr 22 2013, 2:01am

Post #20 of 48 (396 views)
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There is the picture of Bilbo holding Sting, covered in webs [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, the scroll showed Bilbo in Mirkwood with Sting.

I will seriously walk out of the theater if they don't include/change that sequence. I highly doubt PJ is dumb enough to mess with it too much though.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Apr 22 2013, 2:04am

Post #21 of 48 (399 views)
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Yeah, but nothing in LotR... [In reply to] Can't Post

...was changed to the degree of this (if it turns out to be so). This is a major defining moment for Bilbo, and to have him not fighting the spiders would be much too big of an alteration. We're talking about the main character of the story here. You can't eliminate such a major moment of development for the character.

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 22 2013, 2:57am

Post #22 of 48 (397 views)
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Worst PJ crime [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Nothing in LOTR was changed to the degree of this (if it turns out to be so).


Except Filmamir, the worst PJ-crime ever.

Will PJ break his own record in DOS?

If he does, I'm out of TABA.


And it looks like I do have to get over the killing orc thing as I did for so many things in TTT.
It's actually nothing compared to it. Cool


(Correction taken for the one who pointed about the invisibility thing. Me mind slipped. Tongue)

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?

(This post was edited by Smeagol Bagginsess on Apr 22 2013, 2:58am)


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 22 2013, 3:12am

Post #23 of 48 (366 views)
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So ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
And it may be that this is a set-up scene that will make Bilbo's actions with the spiders more believable.


Bilbo is invisible the whole time when he fights the spiders. Naturally, killing a spider when he is invisible is more in character for him than killing and orc in front of Azog himself.

As someone else pointed out, Bilbo's transition could have been pointed out without killing. I would have been okay if Bilbo had injured the orc. And then when the orc tries to kill him, all the dwarves jump in. THAT is a lot more sensible route. And it doesn't risk Bilbo's characterization.

I hate almost the whole scene till the coming of eagles. It was all okay untill Thorin's march.

The dumbest things which I found dumb from the scene:

1. Thorin's "epic" march towards Azog and then his instantaneous fall after a single hit. ( it might have been much better. And the fire on the trees did set up the mood for that. But PJ failed big time.)
2. Bilbo kills the orc. As I said, it's totally senseless for someone used to "conkers" to kill an orc. And in no way I think, this helps the spider-scene in Mirkwood.

3. What were all the dwarves doing there by then? Huh? In the beginning we get a dialogue "loyalty, honour, a willing heart." And it's totally inconsistent to the fact that the dwarves do absolutely nothing but watch untill Bilbo gets his shine! I know some of you would say it's important to give Bilbo more characterization, but that's where you miss! Bilbo's strength lies in courage ad not power. After getting inspired, he can stand up against fear but he does not has the strength to kill warriors. He is not a warrior!


kill giant spiders. Because up until this moment the movie-going audience has no reason to suppose he can. Besides, if he is going to become a real member of the company in Thorin's eyes he is going to have to fight for them. This moment occurs in the book at the killing of the giant spider. Tolkien writes that the dwarves begin to take Bilbo more seriously and he begins to become the leader of the company after this episode. PJ moved that up to this point. It may have been clumsy but from a film-making POV he thought he had to do it.

As to the other dwarves. Dwalin tried to come to Thorin's aid a almost fell out of the tree. Dori and Ori are being held up by Gandalf and the others are in pretty much the same pickle. They are able to save themselves when everyorc's attention is turned to Bilbo.




... he became a real member of the company in Thorin's eyes because he killed an orc and saved him? I think it would work equally well if he just had attacked the orc and stand up in front of Thorin to protect him. And why is it necessary for the dwarves to take Bilbo more seriously in and within AUJ itself? Then why is 3 movies required if PJ's gonna fast forward the "real" scenes and elongate the action scenes?

It's only Dori and Ori who cannot come and I'm okay with that. But the remaining 10 dwarves felt no emotion in their hearts when Thorin fell and just watched on like a show? While only Bilbo was moved and attacked? If you look carefully, you'll see (as I did) all of the dwarves are not on a tight spot. It was quite easy for them as was for Bilbo to save Thorin. But they chose not to. And it's a shallow plot hole.

I really can't see why just injuring the orc would not have worked as a reference to Bilbo's heroism, as so many of you are saying.

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Apr 22 2013, 3:15am

Post #24 of 48 (366 views)
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Faramir isn't the main character of the story. [In reply to] Can't Post

So I would argue that changes to his character rank smaller than any changes they would make to Bilbo. An equivalent would be if they'd significantly altered a major character aspect of Frodo in LotR.

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 22 2013, 3:15am)


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 22 2013, 3:16am

Post #25 of 48 (358 views)
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A bit wrong there. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

As far as that scene goes, Bilbo's fighting does not bother me; in fact, it brings to mind Merry's decision to attack the Witch King when he sees Eowyn in peril: "there is a seed of courage hidden (often deeply, it is true) in the heart of the fattest and most timid hobbit, waiting for some final and desperate danger to make it grow".


Yeah. Except the fact that Merry injured the Witch-King and didn't kill him. Similarly, Bilbo injures the orc and does not kill him. See the similarities?

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?

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