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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
**Silmarillion Discussion 2013, Chapter 9: Of The Flight of the Noldor
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Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 8:15pm

Post #51 of 72 (147 views)
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Vaire as a scribe and back-door narrator [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And similarly, when we get onto the confrontation between melkor/Morgoth and Ungoliant, there canít plausibly have been any witnesses to interview: we would have to be back to reconstruction, and perhaps that explains a shift back to less immediate language? Or not - what do you think?

if begun as a literary device, it quickly falls apart, so i don't hold it to a construct, strictly. perhaps this text comes not originally from elven scribes, but from vaire, who apparently sees everything, as everything is recorded in her weaving. then vaire discussed it with someone.
That is an exceptionally clever idea! Smile


Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 9:23pm

Post #52 of 72 (135 views)
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ha! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thanks. brethil!! : )

and coming from someone whose varied and fresh views always interest me, the compliment is especially sweet.

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 9:36pm

Post #53 of 72 (133 views)
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also, thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

 
also, thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my post. i did not have the time earlier in the week to write the long, considered response that nowimŽ's chapter thread deserved, so i thought it was exceedingly possible that my post might get no response at all (especially since additional threads on thus chapter have been started).

again, thank you. : ) you cheered my day.

ponies --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 10:28pm

Post #54 of 72 (120 views)
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Glad to have the chance to read your ideas! [In reply to] Can't Post

Was keeping an eye out for your post, since you had said you were rereading the chapter - wouldn't miss it!

In addition glad to see your view of the point we had discussed earlier on when any childhood issues were no longer enough influence for consideration in Feanor's choices.

(**A Pony, please**) for that Scribe idea....! Glad it cheered you though! And also thanks back for the kind words....!

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 19 2013, 10:29pm

Post #55 of 72 (124 views)
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Yes, I also think it's odd that Tolkien praises Feanor for loving his dad so much. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure if it's because Tolkien doesn't want Feanor to be too evil as a character--too simplistic, or if he personally feels Feanor is conflicted and tragic as Denethor is and deserves some recognition for that. It's a line that always jumps out at me.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 10:32pm

Post #56 of 72 (118 views)
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His love for Finwe adds to tragedy [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm not sure if it's because Tolkien doesn't want Feanor to be too evil as a character--too simplistic, or if he personally feels Feanor is conflicted and tragic as Denethor is and deserves some recognition for that. It's a line that always jumps out at me.




I think it underlines the tragic fashion of the loss, in that he has this well of (potential)l feeling for Finwe - yet made NO good decisions based on it, probably didn't communicate it in many years, and as I said in the other thread the realization comes too late to fix any of that. Sad statement as to what could have been.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 10:39pm

Post #57 of 72 (118 views)
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my tone in my post [In reply to] Can't Post

 
my tone in my post re feanor / blaming miriel might have gotten a little harrrumph-y. i think there were bits of harrumph speckled through. you can clearly see it, i think, when i reference the moriquendi.

gosh, feanor, feanor, feanor... he certainly captivates, he drives the plot, there's a lot to admire, and a lot to loathe.

one of the reasons he fascinates is he's a great foil to examine universal themes... such as the one we're talking about now... personal responsibility, how much of yourself do you inherit from your parents, your experiences, and -- even if those experiences are traumatic or awful -- at what point are you responsible for your actions?

i'm definitely swinging back to our miriel discussion -- i haven't forgotten... i just haven't had time to respond to all the great threads. +plus+ i was waiting for morgoth's ring (which arrived in the mail yesterday). i wish to read first-hand.

(funny, i could have sworn i had a copy of morgoth's ring... and i certainly had a copy of that buff-colored, barry humphries carpenter-edited letters of j. r. r. tolkien -- cannot find either.)


cheers + and ponies = pcheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 10:44pm

Post #58 of 72 (115 views)
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of what is feanor an amalgam? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
tolkien certainly seems fond of him, much over his value as a character or plot-driver.

perhaps some of feanor's qualities are those which tolkien feels he posseses, or some of the experiences? thus the far-leaning sympathy?

or tolkien take a read-through of the current feanor material and realized, "wow, he's quite the bounder," and puts something in to counterbalance?

you said something in another feanor-post about tolkien being in love with feanor -- not your exact words, and i'm afraid, between you and me, you're the best person to remember what post that was in, apologies. nonetheless, i'm in agreement with that sentiment.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 10:52pm

Post #59 of 72 (121 views)
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sometimes feanor repels, sometimes he draws you in [In reply to] Can't Post

 
and mind... this is all before the kinslaying, and before he dooms his own children (all of them) to pursue a cause he knows they cannot win and that will only bring death, and ruin, and heartache for all.

but... at that moment, before all of that, and despite anything that had transpired before, when he hears the news that his father is dead, and runs off into the night, my heart does certainly crumble for him. i absolutely do believe he loves his father deeply. many perpetually angry and controlling people do love others. in that instant, as he is streaking off in the blue-black haze of whatever light is sprinkling down to valinor from the stars, i see him as a small child, utterly alone, utterly lost.


peace, feanor --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 11:48pm

Post #60 of 72 (104 views)
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Broken Feanor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and mind... this is all before the kinslaying, and before he dooms his own children (all of them) to pursue a cause he knows they cannot win and that will only bring death, and ruin, and heartache for all.

but... at that moment, before all of that, and despite anything that had transpired before, when he hears the news that his father is dead, and runs off into the night, my heart does certainly crumble for him. i absolutely do believe he loves his father deeply. many perpetually angry and controlling people do love others. in that instant, as he is streaking off in the blue-black haze of whatever light is sprinkling down to valinor from the stars, i see him as a small child, utterly alone, utterly lost.

peace, feanor --

.




Very eloquently written...AngelicUnsure

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 20 2013, 12:09am

Post #61 of 72 (102 views)
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I think a hobbit burglar your Morgoth's Ring. They steal stuff like that. Thieves! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 12:38am

Post #62 of 72 (98 views)
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It's a harrrumphy topic....! But to clarify my parental view: [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
my tone in my post re feanor / blaming miriel might have gotten a little harrrumph-y. i think there were bits of harrumph speckled through. you can clearly see it, i think, when i reference the moriquendi.

gosh, feanor, feanor, feanor... he certainly captivates, he drives the plot, there's a lot to admire, and a lot to loathe.

one of the reasons he fascinates is he's a great foil to examine universal themes... such as the one we're talking about now... personal responsibility, how much of yourself do you inherit from your parents, your experiences, and -- even if those experiences are traumatic or awful -- at what point are you responsible for your actions?

i'm definitely swinging back to our miriel discussion -- i haven't forgotten... i just haven't had time to respond to all the great threads. +plus+ i was waiting for morgoth's ring (which arrived in the mail yesterday). i wish to read first-hand.

(funny, i could have sworn i had a copy of morgoth's ring... and i certainly had a copy of that buff-colored, barry humphries carpenter-edited letters of j. r. r. tolkien -- cannot find either.)

cheers + and ponies = pcheers --
.




for my part, I feel that Miriel's choice had unforeseen consequences - stress on unforeseen (so put down that watergun Ardamire!! Heehee!!). I don't mean that it is a large component in the sense of assigning blame; but from a developmental psychology viewpoint the lack of nurturing at an early age, particularly parental nurturing, in all of us (primates, humans, Elves...!) results in diminished capacity to form functional adult bonds later in life. That's how we grow sociopaths. If one read's any bio of say, Ted Bundy, one can see the inherent danger of a bright humanoid who is brought up with an emotional singularity (especially in the presence of violence - not relative in Feanor's case) can become the most dangerous animal on the planet, bar none. And actually studies suggest that children raised in emotionally unstable or unavailable families develop numerous coping 'mannerisms' and are 'hypervigilant' in their responses to human and life stimuli : often becoming what we perceive as the tortured genius. I see a lot of psych issues in my practice, as brains are my specialty as it were, and there is so much we can do medically for 'disease (ie: schizophrenia); but there's almost nothing we can do for personality disorders and their consequences.

So I do feel pity for Feanor. And I see the impact of Miriel's choice.

As far as Books: My Letters got moldy, most of HoME did too, and some just up and disappeared!!!!! Been replacing like crazy lately.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 20 2013, 12:43am

Post #63 of 72 (92 views)
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maybe your books and my books [In reply to] Can't Post

 
....went out the front door on an adventure, without their pocket handkerchiefs (which is a funny word to type... go on, try it...).


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 12:49am

Post #64 of 72 (88 views)
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And surely our books rode away on ponies, no less...! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
....went out the front door on an adventure, without their pocket handkerchiefs (which is a funny word to type... go on, try it...).
.





Cool

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 20 2013, 1:01am

Post #65 of 72 (93 views)
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yes, i'm understanding you much better now... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
+so+ much better. yes, absolutely unforeseen consequences.

fwiw, i was a psych major in college, and was aiming to be a psychologist... my senior year i did an about-face and decided no. i absolutely get what you're saying here about attachment disorder. what are your experiences/thoughts re when one parent is missing, but another parent is still in the picture from the get-go, and who is absolutely loving and supporting?

i hadn't heard of hypervigilance associated with emotionally unstable homes... i definitely have heard/read of its association with violent homes and homes in which sexual abuse occurs.

re personality disorders... i suppose you mean disorders with a capital dsm. i think i'd wish to hear more about which disorders cannot be treated successfully... i know that a lot of serious trauma like childhood neglect, violence, and sexual abuse can percolate into personality disorders (but i want to be very careful about the use of the word "disorder"); also, talk therapy in combination with emdr is incredibly effective for so many with these types of traumas.

i definitely feel pity for feanor in many respects. one of the most interesting aspects of his life (to me) is his relationship with nerdanel. this was his noontide. where he was able to give and receive love as an adult, however small that window was. i would have loved to learn more about the effects of that love on him, did it open him up a bit, make him more trusting for a time? what did he see in her, besides her superior mind and skill? did she remind him of his idealized mental picture of his mother? or was she the opposite of that mental picture?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 20 2013, 1:05am)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 20 2013, 1:02am

Post #66 of 72 (84 views)
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ah, thanks, b// [In reply to] Can't Post

,


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 2:14am

Post #67 of 72 (79 views)
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Analyzing Feanor.....!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

fwiw, i was a psych major in college, and was aiming to be a psychologist... my senior year i did an about-face and decided no. i absolutely get what you're saying here about attachment disorder. what are your experiences/thoughts re when one parent is missing, but another parent is still in the picture from the get-go, and who is absolutely loving and supporting? I am not surprised that you were drawn to psychology, with your insight! I think there is some small variability with an engaged single parent but I think that person is MUCH more likely to have a positive outcome and still be able to attach, whether it is same or opposite sex parent. In Feanor's case I guess we have to ask how engaged Finwe was, or if there was a distracted element with the new family forming; or if Feanor simply did not perceive his father's affection for what it was.

i hadn't heard of hypervigilance associated with emotionally unstable homes... i definitely have heard/read of its association with violent homes and homes in which sexual abuse occurs. I think it results from the individual attempting to react appropriately and often proactively in a defensive fashion to shifting and unpredictable adults.re personality disorders... i suppose you mean disorders with a capital dsm. i think i'd wish to hear more about which disorders cannot be treated successfully... i know that a lot of serious trauma like childhood neglect, violence, and sexual abuse can percolate into personality disorders (but i want to be very careful about the use of the word "disorder"); also, talk therapy in combination with emdr is incredibly effective for so many with these types of traumas. Exactly the ones I mean - borderline, narcissistic, histrionic, etc. disorders. The biggest issue with talk therapy (or any therapy) is the concomitant lack of insight present with these issues, which inhibits the person from seeing the consequences of their behaviors, and maintaining a regimen even if begun. Very tricky, very difficult for the patient and for their loved ones.

i definitely feel pity for feanor in many respects. one of the most interesting aspects of his life (to me) is his relationship with nerdanel. this was his noontide. where he was able to give and receive love as an adult, however small that window was. i would have loved to learn more about the effects of that love on him, did it open him up a bit, make him more trusting for a time? what did he see in her, besides her superior mind and skill? did she remind him of his idealized mental picture of his mother? or was she the opposite of that mental picture? SUCH a good question. We have so little to go on - it certainly seems she was strong character, though JRRT writes not one that wanted to master others as Feanor did. She was involved, I believe, (?) with her father's smithwork in some way - so they had a love of crafting in common perhaps. Miriel seems like more of a negative, quiet person - but depending on the text you read, how much of his mother did Feanor know, to even model a mate after? If we go with Miriel departing with Feanor very young, I guess his 'model' would be more random...I wonder what drew him to Nerdanel - the smithing, and her father? A warm but not controlling nature? Wish we had a deeper picture of her and their relationship, because it would give is insight into Feanor. And sad that it did not last.



.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


telain
Rohan

Apr 20 2013, 5:34pm

Post #68 of 72 (77 views)
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"place" matters -- even on vacation [In reply to] Can't Post

it's rather long, but I thought you might be interested...

Perhaps one of the reasons you think "Why did I bother bringing that back?" was because that thing was of a particular place (and of course, of a particular time -- your vacation.) Consider a Hawaiian shirt: (and really, now, who doesn't?) the shirt makes sense in Hawaii; it is of that place. The colours and patterns work there because the culture of the place supports it, and as I recently learned, even the wavelength of sunlight may support it. This has to do with places nearer the Equator receiving more direct (or shorter wave) light, therefore the colour scheme -- even natural things like bird plumage and flower colours -- is brighter to correspond to it. It feels harmonious and "in place". Contrast Hawaii to a place like England -- and, to make this post Tolkien-adjacent, I think Tolkien's colour word choices support this -- things feel more "grey"; colours compared to bright tropical colours appear more "misty".

But now you've brought your shirt back to your non-Hawaiian home (apologies if you actually live in Hawaii, hopefully this all still makes sense...) and it ... doesn't ... fit in anymore. It is technically now "out-of-place."

Anyway, hopefully that made some sense and my education in human geography has made a useful contribution!


sador
Half-elven


Apr 21 2013, 6:39am

Post #69 of 72 (62 views)
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Some responses [In reply to] Can't Post



In Reply To



feanor seems to have gotten to a point where he's not only creating for himself, but he's hoarding his creations. the valar aren't really much better. true, the light of the trees was made for many in valinor -- but it's only in valinor. the moriquendi are out of luck. the valar have abandoned them, which i do not understand at all, and is negligent on a god-like scale.

if feanor had sacrificed the silmarils (which i think was the better choice), the light of the trees would have been restored -- for valinor. tough luck, moriquendi.




That's an important point (and I'm not saying it just because I made a similar one myself). In a way, I am sure that the Valar's shabby treatment of the Moriquendi and Middle-earth was one of the things which Feanor resented (he specifically mentions it in his speech). It might not have been an original concern with him, though - I am sure Melkor had discreetly pointed it out to those willing to listen, and the rumor came to Feanor's ears. Sadly, he was intelligent enough to grasp it and use it to harden his heart against the Valar.



(earlier in your answer no. 2)



In Reply To



i think yavanna was speaking emotionally, not with any calculation.



I wonder. NoWizardMe has asked whether the Valar really could use the light to rekindle the Trees (in most versions of the Last Prophecy of Mandos, Tolkien indicates that only Feanor could), and I'm not quite sure how Yavanna herself was feeling. In earlier chapters, Tolkien names Yavanna as one of the few Valar who actually cared for the dark Middle-earth; so she was in a moral quandary - feeling that the light of Her Trees has become exclusive, and sorry in a way that it had become the private property of the Valar - but now she is both asking Feanor to do better than she and her brethen did, and also denying Middle-earth the opportunity to be re-lit!
As one of the Valar who seem less self-centered and more empathetic with lesser creatures (I would name only Ulmo, and possibly Orome as her peers in empathy - Nienna is never said to be mourning for the lesser things, only for the great), Yavanna was really the most distressed, and not just because it was her creations that Melkor destroyed.








In Reply To

it's art, yes, but what makes the silmarils
special is that they're filled with the tree-light. it's yavanna's art which
everyone keens for. feanor made lovely settings.




A. I would say Varda's.
B. It appears that the Silmarils were greatly desired by the Valar themselves during the Noon-tide of Valinor. That indicates they were far more than just lovely settings.






In Reply To

btw, this statement of feanor's +reeks+ of
narcissism. the first to be slain in arda would be his +mother+, miriel.
perhaps he meant died unwillingly, which then would not be narcissistic. i
think the statement can be read either way, and feanor does not have a good
track record of thinking of others.




Had this been about Nerdanel, or Fingolfin, I would agree. But Feanor was obsessed with his mother, and Tolkien states that he loved his father more than anyone else since. Yes, you've challanged this assertion below - but even if Tolkien did overstate the case a bit (and I'm not sure he did) - at the very least, you should give Feanor credit for thinking of his mother. But she laid down her life willingly, and wasn't slain.

If you read carefully, you'll notice that Feanor's rebellious thoughts came after Mandos' cryptic remark. I would suggest, rather, that Feanor was sure Mandos was refering to Miriel, and was indulging in a bit of shallow one-upmanship - understanding him as little as Tulkas, but making petty witticisms rather than brash demands.






In Reply To

yes, feanor has suffered, but... please. speaking
as a mortal edain, i've had more to deal with and fewer resources with which to
do it.




If you'll excuse me, this is a particularly unhelpful remark - not that Feanor asked for you help... but it reminds me of my mother provinbg to my sister that she has had more to deal with and fewer resources. It didn't work.
Ultimatley, you can never compare what two different people have to cope with - and for an immortal, to be betrayed like that by his parents, and to live for eternity under the benevolent oppression of the Valar, which curbs all his potential growth? One needs to have a very powerful imagination, combined with a very acute sense of the immortality of one's own soul, to be even able to comprehend what Feanor was feeling, let alone compare to your own experiences. I for one don't have either.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 21 2013, 1:00pm

Post #70 of 72 (58 views)
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some responses... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In Reply To
In Reply To

(i think yavanna was speaking emotionally, not with any calculation. )


I wonder. NoWizardMe has asked whether the Valar really could use the light to rekindle the Trees (in most versions of the Last Prophecy of Mandos, Tolkien indicates that only Feanor could), and I'm not quite sure how Yavanna herself was feeling. In earlier chapters, Tolkien names Yavanna as one of the few Valar who actually cared for the dark Middle-earth; so she was in a moral quandary - feeling that the light of Her Trees has become exclusive, and sorry in a way that it had become the private property of the Valar - but now she is both asking Feanor to do better than she and her brethen did, and also denying Middle-earth the opportunity to be re-lit!
As one of the Valar who seem less self-centered and more empathetic with lesser creatures (I would name only Ulmo, and possibly Orome as her peers in empathy - Nienna is never said to be mourning for the lesser things, only for the great), Yavanna was really the most distressed, and not just because it was her creations that Melkor destroyed.



what i mean, more precisely, is that i do not think yavanna was being manipulative (i.e., complimenting feanor to try to prod him on a certain path; her relief is speaking).

i do think (and agree with you) that yavanna is in an awkward position. i think it is frequently on her mind that there is bliss in valinor but darkness on the main continent, but i'm not sure she's thinking about that at this precise moment. if she is (which is possible) it would put a double-edged and possibly a manipulative edge on what she's saying to feanor.





In Reply To
In Reply To

(it's art, yes, but what makes the silmarils
special is that they're filled with the tree-light. it's yavanna's art which
everyone keens for. feanor made lovely settings. )


A. I would say Varda's.
B. It appears that the Silmarils were greatly desired by the Valar themselves during the Noon-tide of Valinor. That indicates they were far more than just lovely settings.



yes, i'm simplifying (and perhaps oversimplifying), but what makes the silmarils so evocative to most/all is not feanor's art in the main, but varda's (yes, i mistyped; i did indeed mean varda.... thank you for catching that).






In Reply To
In Reply To

(btw, this statement of feanor's +reeks+ of
narcissism. the first to be slain in arda would be his +mother+, miriel.
perhaps he meant died unwillingly, which then would not be narcissistic. i
think the statement can be read either way, and feanor does not have a good
track record of thinking of others. )


Had this been about Nerdanel, or Fingolfin, I would agree. But Feanor was obsessed with his mother, and Tolkien states that he loved his father more than anyone else since. Yes, you've challanged this assertion below - but even if Tolkien did overstate the case a bit (and I'm not sure he did) - at the very least, you should give Feanor credit for thinking of his mother. But she laid down her life willingly, and wasn't slain.

If you read carefully, you'll notice that Feanor's rebellious thoughts came after Mandos' cryptic remark. I would suggest, rather, that Feanor was sure Mandos was refering to Miriel, and was indulging in a bit of shallow one-upmanship - understanding him as little as Tulkas, but making petty witticisms rather than brash demands.



i am actually not convinced feanor was thinking about miriel in that moment. i think he is transfixed by the possibility that the silmarils would be broken, by his hand, at the request of those with whom he had a contentious, sometimes antagonistic, relationship.

re where this takes place in the text and what comes after... feanor's rebellious thoughts are in succession to many other events as well -- a lot transpires. his "rebellion" also comes after he learns his father is dead. i don't see a cause and effect relationship, as you've described it. but perhaps i'm not fully understanding you.

re feanor's love for his father. given all the father/child relationships that exist at that point and will exist, i think this statement is nothing but author's hyperbole. it doesn't seem to fit the narrative, and it jolts me out of the story. i can certainly believe feanor loved his father dearly, but to state "most," out of every loving bond of every other father and child... it's just not the sort of thing that is believable.

additionally, love is not just feeling. love is not just statement. love is also action. that statement of tolkien's butts violent heads with feanor's actions in another chapter, when he takes a blade to fingolfin -- his father's child.

yes, i reassert that that sentence is author hyperbole. i get what i +think+ tolkien was trying to communicate... that feanor was capable of love, and dearly loved his father, but that statement is a bunch of odd angles that do not make a circle.






In Reply To
If you'll excuse me, this is a particularly unhelpful remark - not that Feanor asked for you help... but it reminds me of my mother provinbg to my sister that she has had more to deal with and fewer resources. It didn't work.
Ultimatley, you can never compare what two different people have to cope with - and for an immortal, to be betrayed like that by his parents, and to live for eternity under the benevolent oppression of the Valar, which curbs all his potential growth? One needs to have a very powerful imagination, combined with a very acute sense of the immortality of one's own soul, to be even able to comprehend what Feanor was feeling, let alone compare to your own experiences. I for one don't have either.



yes, i can see how it would be unhelpful in certain applications. it is the type of thing (as you recapped re your mother/sister interaction) that i would not necessarily say to someone who i was trying to help. but i am not speaking to feanor here, and in (many) previous posts, i've spoken of much empathy and sympathy for him.

i do assert what i state is correct; and i suspect it (the degree of hardship suffered, and the available resources) applies not just to me, but a vast swath of people in the world, and probably many in this forum. but i don't wish to drift into an examination of our lives in detail, in pursuit.

in closing, i wish to swing back to the moriquendi... we are so focused (as is the text) on the caliquendi that they are neglected, by comparison. i would welcome more discussion on the responsibility of the valar to them, where they succeeded, and where they failed.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 21 2013, 1:04pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 21 2013, 1:24pm

Post #71 of 72 (50 views)
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Loss among the Firstborn, particularly Feanor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

what i mean, more precisely, is that i do not think yavanna was being manipulative (i.e., complimenting feanor to try to prod him on a certain path; her relief is speaking).

i do think (and agree with you) that yavanna is in an awkward position. i think it is frequently on her mind that there is bliss in valinor but darkness on the main continent, but i'm not sure she's thinking about that at this precise moment. if she is (which is possible) it would put a double-edged and possibly a manipulative edge on what she's saying to feanor.








In Reply To

i am actually not convinced feanor was thinking about miriel in that moment. i think he is transfixed by the possibility that the silmarils would be broken, by his hand, at the request of those with whom he had a contentious, sometimes antagonistic, relationship. I think the issues with Miriel are subconscious, and though they "make the Elf" I don't think it is an internally verbalized equation in Feanor's head. Perhaps it would be better if it was, and with that insight he could have come more to terms with his true issues. But I do think in THAT moment all he can picture is losing the Jewels as 'his', and he has a low threshold for loss.

yes, i can see how it would be unhelpful in certain applications. it is the type of thing (as you recapped re your mother/sister interaction) that i would not necessarily say to someone who i was trying to help. but i am not speaking to feanor here, and in (many) previous posts, i've spoken of much empathy and sympathy for him.
i do assert what i state is correct; and i suspect it (the degree of hardship suffered, and the available resources) applies not just to me, but a vast swath of people in the world, and probably many in this forum. but i don't wish to drift into an examination of our lives in detail, in pursuit.
What I would say is that you having that emotional reaction points to how changed the world will become from its beginnings, and how much the Firstborn will eventually have to absorb in losses before they learn better coping - because the losses WILL come. It's like children learning to walk....compare for example Feanor's reaction to losses with Elrond's later on. A progression in maturity and sad knowledge of the ills that may come to pass, and how to move on and remain in Grace.

in closing, i wish to swing back to the moriquendi... we are so focused (as is the text) on the caliquendi that they are neglected, by comparison. i would welcome more discussion on the responsibility of the valar to them, where they succeeded, and where they failed. So true, living in Starlight and sort of off the radar. I would guess really that Ulmo is the only one really looking out for them in this period - the Valar are so consumed by events in the Blessed Realm. (No wonder they are "more wild and less wise" in the days of TH!)


.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 21 2013, 2:00pm

Post #72 of 72 (53 views)
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heya, brethil... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
just want to say, i think you stated this wonderfully... really wonderfully...


In Reply To
What I would say is that you having that emotional reaction points to how changed the world will become from its beginnings, and how much the Firstborn will eventually have to absorb in losses before they learn better coping - because the losses WILL come. It's like children learning to walk....compare for example Feanor's reaction to losses with Elrond's later on. A progression in maturity and sad knowledge of the ills that may come to pass, and how to move on and remain in Grace.




also, i know i've stated this before (and probably was not the first to voice it), but miriel's loss has some firsts in aman... she is the first to die in aman... and this affects feanor, finwe, and any family that miriel has there.

but... feanor is not the only elda to have to go without a parent. many elves were captured or killed by morgoth or his servants.

if killed, they went to mandos, and in time will be reborn (in that they differ from miriel, but at the moment of this chapter, it is likely that many elda are missing a parent, perhaps two, and siblings, and children and other family members).

if they are alive and thralls slaving away in melkor's dark places, they are still sundered -- and are also suffering immensely -- think of the eldar who have no mother, father, sibling, child, etc., and who have no news of their fate, and can only speculate what horrors they may be experiencing for literally ages.... for they cannot pass to mandos until their physical body is dead.

feanor may have experienced something horribly unique in that his mother just would not return, but aside from that unique facet, others shared very similar griefs and losses.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 21 2013, 2:01pm)

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