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Rivendell 0 secs ago **Silmarillion Discussion 2013, Part 3 of Chapter 9: Of The Flight of the Noldor
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noWizardme
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Apr 19 2013, 9:52am

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Rivendell 0 secs ago **Silmarillion Discussion 2013, Part 3 of Chapter 9: Of The Flight of the Noldor Can't Post


In an earlier thread we discussed the first part of the Chapter. The Valar and Elves gather on the curiously named "Ring of Doom" to discuss their next steps after the attack on their Trees. Feanor is asked to give up the Silmarils for an attempt to heal the Trees, but will not. Manwe is curiously passive when one might expect him and the other Valar to see that the attack on the Trees may have gravely undermined their authority with the elves. Then news arrives that the Silmarils have been stolen by Melkor (now also named Morgoth), who has also murdered Feanor's father Finwe. That scene ends with Feanor running off wildly, and the action cuts to the escaping raiders, Melkor and Ungoliant, whose falling out over the loot we are discussing in a parallel thread.

Meanwhile, things begin to get out of hand in Valinor:
leading to a grim story of oaths, battles, prophecies and treachery.


Many of the Noldor have returned to their city Tirion. Fëanor appears - this is an act of defiance, (because he is banned from being there and so is breaking parole). Fëanor delivers an impassioned speech, claiming kingship of all the Noldor, and urging them to return to Middle-earth, both to revenge their slain king, and for the opportunities they will find there (“he echoed the lies of Melkor, that the Valar had cozened them and would hold them captive so that Men might rule in Middle-earth”).
Fëanor and his sons then swear a “terrible oath” (or, as Tolkien calls it in a letter


Quote
“a terrible and blasphemous oath of enmity and vengeance against all or any, even the gods, who dares to claim any part or right in the Silmarilli”
- Letter to Milton Waldman, 1951, reproduced in 2edn of Silmarillion)

This commits them utterly, as they no doubt intend (“For so sworn,good or evil, an oath may not be broken , and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world’s end”)
What on Earth possesses them to do something do extreme as this spectacular oath?
Do we already sense as readers (remember “your first time” if you can) that this oath is going to backfire spectacularly? If we don’t pick that up ourselves, we get a hint before the end of the chapter: “their oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue”?
It seems completely reasonable to believe that Fëanor is undertaking something he doesn’t have the power to do (and should he not realise this, the Valar are at pains to point this out). The glory of a quest of such daring seems to be a factor driving the Noldor on, despite the apparent odds. Should we contrast this with the great daring against seemingly hopeless odds of, say, the Rohirrim deciding to fulfill their oath to ride to the assistance of Gondor in Return of the King? Or is it more like the foolish - and most likely drunken - boast of Baldor son of Brego (Prince of Rohan who boasted that he would walk the Paths of the Dead, and whose remains are found there by Aragorn)? Are there interesting compare/contrasts to be done with other oaths from Tolkien's writings, or from other stories?
Or should we think of Elrond determined that the Fellowship of the Ring should **not** be bound by oath?
How is the oath "blasphemous"?

After a debate, the greater part of the Noldor resolve to depart, and Fëanor drives them on in haste, fearing that he will lose them if there is a delay. As the Noldor set out a messenger from the Valar arrives to tell the Noldor that they may leave (i.e. refuting Fëanor’s allegation that they are effectively being held prisoner) , but that their quest has no chance of success. Morevoer, Fëanor is declared banished. This fails to calm things down.

What’s driving the Noldor? There’s a hard core (Fëanor & sons) bent on revenge and recovery of the Silmarils. In any case, Fëanor has just been banished by the Valar. But clearly Fëanor knows that the whole group is note behind this; and that his hold on the rest is shaky (so he is at pains to get them all committed fast). What motivates the others? A further group are interested in the opportunities that might await in Middle-earth - for example Galadriel “was eager to be gone...she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and rule there a realm at her own will.” Others are more reluctant. Fingolfin (Feanors step- brother) is in the classic moderate’s bind that “he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash councils of Fëanor”.

Meanwhile, what is motivating the Valar? Manwe is “aggrieved” to be accused of evil intent towards the Eldar, or of holding them captive. And the Valar do not believe that Fëanor can hold the Noldor to his will. If the Valar have a plan to put things right, they do not articulate it. Is there something of a teenager/parent confrontation here?- the Noldor as the teenagers, no longer content to live under the parental roof and parental rules with these old fogeys who don’t get it? And the Valar as the parents, too affronted by the challenge to their rule (and too cocksure that the teenager will back down) to offer compromise or a win-win outcome?
Perhaps the miscalculation is a two-way one:, I was impressed by Brethil's suggestion that

Quote
[Feanor's] anger congeals and the Valar are an easy target as he is confident that, unlike Melkor, the Valar will not strike at him.
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=595708#595708


Alternatively, let’s consider Fëanor ‘s case as if he’d just made himself the Leader of the Opposition. let’s ignore his wilder points for now - Melkor is not part of a conspiracy with the rest of the Valar. But it does seem that the Valar have not been terribly competent as an administration. They have partitioned Arda and brought the Eldar to the nice bit. The grand bargain seems to be that the Eldar will be protected and looked after in return for obedience (the rest of Middle-earth will have to look after itself for now, it seems). But the Valar have just proved themselves unable to keep their side of the bargain, miserably failing to defend themselves against an act of war, by one enemy they let escape, and another they seem to have been unaware of.
Do you agree/disagree with these analogies (or have others)?
Should the Valar have handled things differently? - e.g. revealed their plan, been conciliatory, taken steps to rebuild trust in their leadership?
I want to remind Finwe ("as in the Reading Room contributor known as..." )That he felt Manwe had a plan, albeit one with a miscalculation : time to tell us your thoughts, my friend

Realising that his host will need boats, Fëanor leads them to Tuna and tries to negotiate for the boats of the Teleri. But, echoing back Fëanor’s own sentiment about not being able to repeat one’s finest work, the Teleri will not give the Noldor their boats. Nor do they want to aid them in other ways. The Noldor seize the boats by force, ironically aided by Fingolfin’s part of the Noldor host, who join the battle without understanding the cause of it.
Does anyone have an argument to support Feanor about this, or is this simply inexcusable? Do we have any more sympathy for the late-commers misunderstanding the situation and joining the battle, perhaps later realising that that was wrong?

The Noldor sail away, mostly survive a storm, and encounter a further messenger from the Valar, possibly Mandos himself. This messenger gives a prophecy, or curse. They are left in no doubt that Fëanor and anyone following him will not be allowed back into Valinor; and that they are not going to have a successful or pleasant stay in Middle-earth.


Its not clear to me whether this is a prediction, a prophesy or a curse (or several of those). my dictionary has "prophesy" as meaning either "prediction" (like Fredegar Bolger's doctor telling him what's likely to happen if he won't cut down on the pies), but also its what a prophet does (divinely inspired revelations about the future). Mandos is supposed to have knowledge of the future, so in this case, it’s credible that this is a magically reliable prediction (thought that of course opens up a philosophical can of worms about fate and free will. Or should a philosophical cam be filled with philosophers, rather than worms?)
A curse, though is "a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment" so what is going on here? The Valar are warning the Noldor of what will happen? Or that the Valar are giving out punishment (or both?) Some of it (that any of the Noldor why die will be stuck in Mandos - don't pass go don't collect £200) sounds like threats rather than prediction.
Prediction? Prophecy? Curse? All of those? Are the Valar trying to help here, or to punish? Or both?


A section of the host under Finarfin (Feanors second step-brother) turns back at this, is pardoned, and returns to Valinor. The rest carry on to Helcaraxë, where there are not enough ships to ferry the whole host across. Suspicion is awakening, and part of the host, under Fingolfin is beginning to “murmur” and blame Fëanor for the hardships they are suffering. In a sign of awakening suspicions, no part of the host is willing to let any other part set off first in the boats. Fëanor and his sons betray the rest, seizing the ships and sailing away with their faction, and then burning the boats on arrival in Middle-earth. Fingolfin’s faction, left behind, can see the flames from the burning boats and know they’ve been betrayed. They take a long, hard land road, and finally arrive in Middle-earth eager to find Feanor again and have their revenge.

So, nice one Feanor! His list of allies grows thin. He has fairly terminally annoyed the gods. He's had fatal falling a out with each of his two step-brothers, and carried out an act of war against the Teleri, a tribe which has branches occupying Middle-earth (the Sindar, Nandor and Laiquendi being parts of the Teleri tribe which did not go to Valinor.)



So to recap, (and for cutting & pasting if you want to label any answers) my rambly starter questions are about:

  1. Oaths - why do Fëanor and his sons swear such a dramatic one? How is it like/unlike other oaths from Tolkien’s stories, (or his influences)

  2. What is driving the Noldor on?

  3. Is there any excuse for their stealing the boats of the Teleri? (is that even a debatable point?)

  4. Could the Valar be handling things better? What id motivating them? Are we discovering things about their relationship with the elves, or the limitations of their project to partition Arda and bring the Children of Illuvatar to the nice bit?

  5. Prophecies Predictions and Curses - which of these are being hurled at the Noldor, (and does the distinction matter)?
I do have one final question, however - why is it "On The Flight of the Noldor"? I'm supposing "flight "comes from "feeing" - but what are they fleeing?



Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 19 2013, 10:00am)


noWizardme
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Apr 19 2013, 10:48am

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"Rivendell 0 secs ago ?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry about that - my cunning scheme involving multiple browser tabs and use of the Edit period did allow me to make two threads whose starter post link to each other Shocked
(You're impressed right Cool?)

But


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Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possesses ourselves

I seem to have ended up with "Rivendell 0 secs ago" in the title of this one and with some unintentional bolding and formatting. Hope that's not too distracting....

Just pretend you didn't notice Blush

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....


dernwyn
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Apr 19 2013, 5:02pm

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I'd offer to edit it out of there, but it's one of the most amazing subject lines I've ever seen! Shocked


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






noWizardme
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Apr 19 2013, 5:10pm

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Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
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Apr 19 2013, 5:15pm

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Meanwhile, things begin to get out of hand in Valinor:
leading to a grim story of oaths, battles, prophecies and treachery.


Many of the Noldor have returned to their city Tirion. Fëanor appears - this is an act of defiance, (because he is banned from being there and so is breaking parole). Fëanor delivers an impassioned speech, claiming kingship of all the Noldor, and urging them to return to Middle-earth, both to revenge their slain king, and for the opportunities they will find there (“he echoed the lies of Melkor, that the Valar had cozened them and would hold them captive so that Men might rule in Middle-earth”)Fëanor and his sons then swear a “terrible oath” (or, as Tolkien calls it in a letter


Quote
“a terrible and blasphemous oath of enmity and vengeance against all or any, even the gods, who dares to claim any part or right in the Silmarilli”
- Letter to Milton Waldman, 1951, reproduced in 2edn of Silmarillion)

This commits them utterly, as they no doubt intend (“For so sworn,good or evil, an oath may not be broken , and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world’s end”) What on Earth possesses them to do something do extreme as this spectacular oath? Does it speak to that 'gap' of understanding between the Valar and the Firstborn? Feanors speech is so full of resentment (some of which on the face of it makes sense - almost like Saruman's speeches do!) against the Valar that I think the emotion takes him to this next level. Do we already sense as readers (remember “your first time” if you can) that this oath is going to backfire spectacularly? If we don’t pick that up ourselves, we get a hint before the end of the chapter: “their oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue”? ABSOLUTELY! Even on my first read - you just know nothing good will come of this, and in "Monkey's Paw" fashion it will be grimly unexpected!
It seems completely reasonable to believe that Fëanor is undertaking something he doesn’t have the power to do (and should he not realise this, the Valar are at pains to point this out). The glory of a quest of such daring seems to be a factor driving the Noldor on, despite the apparent odds. Should we contrast this with the great daring against seemingly hopeless odds of, say, the Rohirrim deciding to fulfill their oath to ride to the assistance of Gondor in Return of the King? Or is it more like the foolish - and most likely drunken - boast of Baldor son of Brego (Prince of Rohan who boasted that he would walk the Paths of the Dead, and whose remains are found there by Aragorn)? Are there interesting compare/contrasts to be done with other oaths from Tolkien's writings, or from other stories? Or should we think of Elrond determined that the Fellowship of the Ring should **not** be bound by oath? No, I think it's more of a striking out by the Noldor to 'come of age' and address the grievances and the confusing events that have happened. The Valar have been so unresponsive to the events, really, that I think Feanor strikes at just the right time and at a people who is looking for 'answers'; in the height of emotion (and for your science-head NoWiz, level of sympathetic stimulation and catecholamine release) physical action may seem like the only possible response. Not at all like Rohan - which represents a huge risk but is actually the mature FULFILLMENT of their culture and an honorable oath, not a primarily emotional response. Drunken Brego - no that I think is more directly arrogant; Feanor himself may have some arrogance issues, but I think its more fear and reaction against events and a clear focus of anger - the Valar - that inspires the Noldor. Another 'Oath" I think of is the Ring speaking through Frodo at Gollum, warning him off, on Mount Doom - having unintended consequences as well; as indeed Gollum is cast into the Fire but so is the Ring.
How is the oath "blasphemous"? Great question. It is blasphemous because it compels the Holders to seek their own goals, their own needs, over the needs of all others and even promises harm against the Divine in carrying it out.

After a debate, the greater part of the Noldor resolve to depart, and Fëanor drives them on in haste, fearing that he will lose them if there is a delay. As the Noldor set out a messenger from the Valar arrives to tell the Noldor that they may leave (i.e. refuting Fëanor’s allegation that they are effectively being held prisoner) , but that their quest has no chance of success. Morevoer, Fëanor is declared banished. This fails to calm things down
. Surprise...!

What’s driving the Noldor? There’s a hard core (Fëanor & sons) bent on revenge and recovery of the Silmarils. In any case, Fëanor has just been banished by the Valar. But clearly Fëanor knows that the whole group is note behind this; and that his hold on the rest is shaky (so he is at pains to get them all committed fast). What motivates the others? A further group are interested in the opportunities that might await in Middle-earth - for example Galadriel “was eager to be gone...she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and rule there a realm at her own will.” Others are more reluctant. Fingolfin (Feanors step- brother) is in the classic moderate’s bind that “he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash councils of Fëanor”. I think they are motivated by 'the opportunities in ME' because of their desire to fully grow and mature, and not be pets or children of the Valar any more; a gain that gap in understanding that occurs when a 'lower' and less powerful people are watched over by a race of unique beings who, like them, do not age but do not form families, have real children of their own, and complete the cycle of growing up. Feanor's ideas fall on fertile ground because this has been coming for a long time, and with all the recent events the Firstborn are probably feeling this sense of constraint PLUS fear.

Meanwhile, what is motivating the Valar? Manwe is “aggrieved” to be accused of evil intent towards the Eldar, or of holding them captive. And the Valar do not believe that Fëanor can hold the Noldor to his will. If the Valar have a plan to put things right, they do not articulate it. Is there something of a teenager/parent confrontation here?- the Noldor as the teenagers, no longer content to live under the parental roof and parental rules with these old fogeys who don’t get it? And the Valar as the parents, too affronted by the challenge to their rule (and too cocksure that the teenager will back down) to offer compromise or a win-win outcome?
Yes, there is a coming-of-age conflict here, plus the gulf as I stated above. The Valar have always sort of both idealized and infantisized the Firstborn, without seeing their complexity and recognizing their differences - nor have they ever seemed to grasp that because the Song has darker notes, the Firstborn have the latitude to behave in ways they may not like very much. Is this part of the weakness of the Valar not having the 'full picture' - maybe. Potentially the one having the fullest sense of all that could happen in creation is probably Melkor, being given great power and knowledge. Of course he isn't playing for their team anymore...
Perhaps the miscalculation is a two-way one:, I was impressed by Brethil's suggestion that

Quote
[Feanor's] anger congeals and the Valar are an easy target as he is confident that, unlike Melkor, the Valar will not strike at him.
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=595708#595708

(Thanks NoWizAngelic) It's also a parental-type relationship: the Noldor and Feanor know they can act out without the Valar moving violently against them because they KNOW they are loved, and they know the Valar to be good. That gives them a certain amount of latitude that of course they can never have with a true Enemy. Alternatively, let’s consider Fëanor ‘s case as if he’d just made himself the Leader of the Opposition. let’s ignore his wilder points for now - Melkor is not part of a conspiracy with the rest of the Valar. But it does seem that the Valar have not been terribly competent as an administration. They have partitioned Arda and brought the Eldar to the nice bit. The grand bargain seems to be that the Eldar will be protected and looked after in return for obedience (the rest of Middle-earth will have to look after itself for now, it seems). But the Valar have just proved themselves unable to keep their side of the bargain, miserably failing to defend themselves against an act of war, by one enemy they let escape, and another they seem to have been unaware of. Do you agree/disagree with these analogies (or have others)? That's what I meant above by how the kernel of truth (like Saruman's truth) appeals while emotions run high; they HAVEN'T kept everyone safe, true, by underestimating Melkor as well as the Noldor (I see a Theme....!). And since the mind of Eru always strives against 'flatness', its not surprising that the Eldar as the Firsborn of the song might begin to chafe under this 'kept' status.
Should the Valar have handled things differently? - e.g. revealed their plan, been conciliatory, taken steps to rebuild trust in their leadership? Yes, some revelations might have helped build the trust. But if they are being paternalistic, they will not see the need for that.
**I want to remind Finwe ("as in the Reading Room contributor known as..." )That he felt Manwe had a plan, albeit one with a miscalculation : time to tell us your thoughts, my friend** Indeed, share!

Realising that his host will need boats, Fëanor leads them to Tuna and tries to negotiate for the boats of the Teleri. But, echoing back Fëanor’s own sentiment about not being able to repeat one’s finest work, the Teleri will not give the Noldor their boats. Nor do they want to aid them in other ways. The Noldor seize the boats by force, ironically aided by Fingolfin’s part of the Noldor host, who join the battle without understanding the cause of it. Does anyone have an argument to support Feanor about this, or is this simply inexcusable? Do we have any more sympathy for the late-commers misunderstanding the situation and joining the battle, perhaps later realising that that was wrong? Nope, at this point I can't excuse or support it, as much sympathy I might have for Feanor before this. Its such an egregious breaking of the peace both as a Firstborn and as a craftsman, especially when they are described as like 'gems of the Noldor'; of course that might have just made Feanor more angry. I get so frustrated with Fingolfin's host just leaping in - its so unlike anything the Eldar have been known to do! I think it just massively underlines the chaos of the day.

The Noldor sail away, mostly survive a storm, and encounter a further messenger from the Valar, possibly Mandos himself. This messenger gives a prophecy, or curse. They are left in no doubt that Fëanor and anyone following him will not be allowed back into Valinor; and that they are not going to have a successful or pleasant stay in Middle-earth.
Its not clear to me whether this is a prediction, a prophesy or a curse (or several of those). my dictionary has "prophesy" as meaning either "prediction" (like Fredegar Bolger's doctor telling him what's likely to happen if he won't cut down on the pies), but also its what a prophet does (divinely inspired revelations about the future). Mandos is supposed to have knowledge of the future, so in this case, it’s credible that this is a magically reliable prediction (thought that of course opens up a philosophical can of worms about fate and free will. Or should a philosophical cam be filled with philosophers, rather than worms?)
A curse, though is "a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment" so what is going on here? The Valar are warning the Noldor of what will happen? Or that the Valar are giving out punishment (or both?) Some of it (that any of the Noldor why die will be stuck in Mandos - don't pass go don't collect £200) sounds like threats rather than prediction. Prediction? Prophecy? Curse? All of those? Are the Valar trying to help here, or to punish? Or both?
I see it as prophecy, in that it has divine knowledge of the future, but not as punishment - that will come as a result of the actions, not from the Valar or even Eru.


A section of the host under Finarfin (Feanors second step-brother) turns back at this, is pardoned, and returns to Valinor. The rest carry on to Helcaraxë, where there are not enough ships to ferry the whole host across. Suspicion is awakening, and part of the host, under Fingolfin is beginning to “murmur” and blame Fëanor for the hardships they are suffering. In a sign of awakening suspicions, no part of the host is willing to let any other part set off first in the boats. Fëanor and his sons betray the rest, seizing the ships and sailing away with their faction, and then burning the boats on arrival in Middle-earth. Fingolfin’s faction, left behind, can see the flames from the burning boats and know they’ve been betrayed. They take a long, hard land road, and finally arrive in Middle-earth eager to find Feanor again and have their revenge.
Such paranoia; almost like children who have ventured too far and are beyond their judgment. Also I can't help but hear the 'murmurings' as the words of those who have been so gently kept in the palm of the Valar, experiencing the 'freedom' for the first time, and realizing it has its disadvantages! (Okay, so maybe the grass IS greener on Tuna!) Feanor sums this up when he says "let them whine their way back to the cages of the Valar!"
So, nice one Feanor! His list of allies grows thin. He has fairly terminally annoyed the gods. He's had fatal falling a out with each of his two step-brothers, and carried out an act of war against the Teleri, a tribe which has branches occupying Middle-earth (the Sindar, Nandor and Laiquendi being parts of the Teleri tribe which did not go to Valinor.) The Fall is going down, on Feanor's watch indeed.
I do have one final question, however - why is it "On The Flight of the Noldor"? I'm supposing "flight "comes from "fleeing" - but what are they fleeing? I think they are fleeing 'the cages' as Feanor puts it - without making a judgment as to the right or wrong of those (gilded?) cages. Does "flight' refer to a caged bird stretching its wings for the first time?



Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 5:20pm

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Yes, Keep it! I Love the **LIVE** Rivendell broadcasts!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Great post NoWiz! Again!!!! Smile (We can have you reporting from Imladris and CG from Valinor...!)

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Finwe
Lorien


Apr 19 2013, 5:52pm

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  1. Oaths - why do Fëanor and his sons swear such a dramatic one? How is it like/unlike other oaths from Tolkien’s stories, (or his influences) Feanor is beyond fired up and this point and will stop at nothing to regain his Silmarils. His oath is taken out of rage and pride, not to mention swears it in the name of Eru, which is why it is blasphemous. His sons join him out of fierce loyalty. Oaths are very sacred in Tolkien. Once an oath is sworn, one is forever bound to it, hence they should only be taken in good faith, i.e. the Oath of Eorl that the King of Rohan swear.

  2. What is driving the Noldor on? Many different factors on an individual basis. Feanor is being driven by his oath, pride, and hatred. Feanor's son are being driven by love and loyalty to their father. Galadriel, Turgon, Finrod and Fingon are driven by their desire to rule realms of their own. Fingolfin and Finarfin are being driven by love for their people, as they don't want to abandon them to Feanor's madness.

  3. Is there any excuse for their stealing the boats of the Teleri? (is that even a debatable point?) I can't see one, but perhaps I'm wrong. Olwe says it best, "But as for our white ships; those you gave us not. We learned that craft not from the Noldor...For I say to you, Feanor son of Finwe, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again." It's murder and theft, pure and simple. What I've always wondered is why can't the Teleri make more ships?

  4. Could the Valar be handling things better? What id motivating them? Are we discovering things about their relationship with the elves, or the limitations of their project to partition Arda and bring the Children of Illuvatar to the nice bit?

  5. Prophecies Predictions and Curses - which of these are being hurled at the Noldor, (and does the distinction matter)? I'd say prophecies. Predictions, to me at least, imply a guess where one doesn't know the outcome, i.e. predicting the winner of the NCAA basketball tournament. Prophecies are a foretelling of what will transpire, which is what Mandos is doing here. Curses imply the curser is negatively impacting future events for the cursee. In retrospect, I can see where the Noldor view Mandos' speak as a curse, just as Men later misrepresent the Gift of Illuvatar as a curse.

One last thought before I get to my Manwe theory and it has to do with Tolkien's writing style, which I will also cover next week in my chapter discussions. The majority of this chapter has been zoomed in, so we get placed right into the debate of the Noldor, which I believe is intentional on Tolkien's part. Notice how at the end of the chapter he zooms back out, glossing over some incredible details. Wouldn't you have loved to gotten a front row seat to the crossing of the Helcaraxe, instead of a few sentences? Notice how he name drops Elenwe, someone we've never heard of before and will never hear of again. Tolkien is a master at leaving you wanting more, no matter how deep you dig.

Now the moment you've all been waiting for. Why was Manwe silent? Here's a quotation from the text that has led me to believe why this was so:
'But from Valmar no message came, and Manwe was silent. He would not yet either forbid or hinder Feanor's purpose; for the Valar were aggrieved that they were charged with evil intent by the Eldar, or that any were held captive by them against their will. Now they watched and waited, for they did not yet believe that Feanor could hold the host of the Noldor to his will.

I bolded the word aggrieved because I believe it is an important word, as you already drew attention to in your post. According to my dictionary, this is an old Middle English word meaning wronged, offended, or injured. The present tense aggrieve means to oppress or wrong grievously. The Valar aren't just sad that Feanor is blaming them for the foes that have recently fallen the Noldor, they are fed up with him. Manwe's silence is purposeful and calculated. He wants Feanor gone, then the Valar, Maiar, Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri can redress the wounds of Aman in peace. He knows nothing can stop Feanor from attempting to retake the Silmarils, as he and his sons just swore their terrible Oath. He's giving Feanor just enough rope to hang himself with.

The second sentence in the above quote is equally important. Manwe didn't want all the Noldor gone, but he didn't feel the need to try to speak up to stop them from following Feanor because he didn't think they would follow him to the bitter end. He expected cooler heads to prevail. He underestimated the voice of Feanor and the desires it awoke in the hearts of the Noldor, so he lets them leave without word. Only after they're issuing from the gates of Tirion does he realize his miscalculation and send a messenger and attempt to convince the non-Feanorian Noldor to return to Valinor.

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 5:54pm

Post #8 of 59 (1922 views)
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Feanor's fallacious demagoguery [In reply to] Can't Post

Completely brilliant post, Brethil.
I was thinking about Feanor's argument that:
1) the Valar Melkor has done us wrong
2) these others are also Valar
3) therefore they will do us wrong, if they haven't already
4) so we had better act against them, before they act against us!

Step 3 is questionable, but all the rest follows logically. So it's a classic trick. Replace Valar with another demagogue target (Jews, blacks, gays, Catholics, Protestants, Moslems: who is it handy to stir the mob against this time?) And there you have a miserably recurring scene.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 5:58pm

Post #9 of 59 (1913 views)
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Great analysis Finwe! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Now the moment you've all been waiting for. Why was Manwe silent? Here's a quotation from the text that has led me to believe why this was so:
'But from Valmar no message came, and Manwe was silent. He would not yet either forbid or hinder Feanor's purpose; for the Valar were aggrieved that they were charged with evil intent by the Eldar, or that any were held captive by them against their will. Now they watched and waited, for they did not yet believe that Feanor could hold the host of the Noldor to his will.

I bolded the word aggrieved because I believe it is an important word, as you already drew attention to in your post. According to my dictionary, this is an old Middle English word meaning wronged, offended, or injured. The present tense aggrieve means to oppress or wrong grievously. The Valar aren't just sad that Feanor is blaming them for the foes that have recently fallen the Noldor, they are fed up with him. Manwe's silence is purposeful and calculated. He wants Feanor gone, then the Valar, Maiar, Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri can redress the wounds of Aman in peace. He knows nothing can stop Feanor from attempting to retake the Silmarils, as he and his sons just swore their terrible Oath. He's giving Feanor just enough rope to hang himself with.

The second sentence in the above quote is equally important. Manwe didn't want all the Noldor gone, but he didn't feel the need to try to speak up to stop them from following Feanor because he didn't think they would follow him to the bitter end. He expected cooler heads to prevail. He underestimated the voice of Feanor and the desires it awoke in the hearts of the Noldor, so he lets them leave without word. Only after they're issuing from the gates of Tirion does he realize his miscalculation and send a messenger and attempt to convince the non-Feanorian Noldor to return to Valinor.
I love how this comes together Finwe. It expands the idea that the Valar are operating from a lack of comprehension of the internal workings of the Noldor ('the kids'), and seeing Feanor as singular and an anomaly instead of understanding how widespread the discontent has become, with Feanor the spark to set it off. Great.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 7:35pm

Post #10 of 59 (1924 views)
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I agree- entirely convincing that Manwe sees Feanor as one bad apple, and is completely behind on Elven politics. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 7:58pm

Post #11 of 59 (1906 views)
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So true, and timeless vs allergorical [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Completely brilliant post, Brethil.
I was thinking about Feanor's argument that:
1) the Valar Melkor has done us wrong
2) these others are also Valar
3) therefore they will do us wrong, if they haven't already
4) so we had better act against them, before they act against us!

Step 3 is questionable, but all the rest follows logically. So it's a classic trick. Replace Valar with another demagogue target (Jews, blacks, gays, Catholics, Protestants, Moslems: who is it handy to stir the mob against this time?) And there you have a miserably recurring scene.




With JRRT having seen both World Wars and so much of the racial and social unrest in the 20th century, I think the above focused paranoia as a political tool was a very real thing. I don't think it's allegory (as JRRT says) because I think he saw these things as timeless behaviors which translated and could be reverse-engineered into mythos. It also rolls 'downhill' as we discussed with the point of the lowest in the hierarchy (man) being the most quick and likely to use the strategy; that pressure of Time and the NEED for immediacy maybe, in mortals? The Elves as a group really *only* seem to have it happen here...(arguably, and for later on, maybe - Thingol? Also an unhappy result) and its a sentinel event in their history; the Valar exhibit some wonky judgment, but do not seem to resort to this kind of thinking.

In addition, NoWiz, I wanted to address tour very astute point that Elrond DID NOT place an 'oath' upon the Fellowship. Amazing wisdom on his part; its those things that I love to discover about folks I already love so much...and I am sure Elrond didn't just randomly choose that route: he has learned from his family's history what oaths can do, how they can backfire in unintended ways, and ME cannot afford that. Nor will he put that risk upon any of the volunteers. Outstanding character choice and a great pearl you extracted there NoWiz!

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 8:17pm

Post #12 of 59 (1907 views)
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timeless behaviors which translated and could be reverse-engineered into mythos [In reply to] Can't Post

"timeless behaviors which translated and could be reverse-engineered into mythos"
Bingo- big attraction of Tolkien for me, beautifully phrased

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 10:51pm

Post #13 of 59 (1888 views)
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I wondered if you were trying to link to the movie "Zero Dark Thirty" // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


telain
Rohan

Apr 19 2013, 11:26pm

Post #14 of 59 (1884 views)
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drum roll well deserved (followed by cymbal crash!) [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like your theory on Manwe re: Fëanor. I am not sure we've talked much about the "air" quality of Manwe as it applies to his character, but this really fits: remain quiet, sit back, and let Fëanor determine his own fate (which will probably end in flames, since he is such a hothead).

I also like it because it echoes Fëanor's treatment of the rest of the Valar based on what Melkor had done. Bad apples spoiling barrels all around.

One last note: on the Teleri ships and why they can't make them. Could it be that they won't make them again? Too many bad memories? Don't want to invite a repeat kinslaying? To me, "shall" seems more of a decision, than if the quote said: "...whose like we cannot make again.".


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 11:46pm

Post #15 of 59 (1872 views)
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But, Dernwyn, I think you should at least give noWiz points for effort. Promote him to Valinor! :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 20 2013, 12:45am

Post #16 of 59 (1883 views)
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I can't send him to Valinor... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I can give him a cookie for creating a cool subject line! Cool




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 2:33am

Post #17 of 59 (1871 views)
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Great finale, noWiz. [In reply to] Can't Post

The doom of Mandos was curse + prediction. Plus "I hope this happens to you!"

On 1st read, I thought the oath was actually a heroic act of promising to get the Silmarils back no matter what. I thought they would prove the Valar wrong (and the Valar have made mistakes before) and win the Silmarils back and bring them home. Though I was dismayed by the Kinslaying, it seemed like men-killing-men, which is all too common. I had no idea it would backfire.

Though as you say, why did they make the Oath so extreme? They didn't have to. I don't know.

Oaths in general: the ghosts in The Paths of the Dead are there because they broke their oath. They are perilous things to meddle with, worse than wizards. I'm glad you thought to make the connection to Elrond saying that there shouldn't be an oath for the Fellowship that Gimli wanted. Is Elrond averse to oaths because of family history?

Blasphemous--because it names Eru?

It seems flimsy that the Noldor follow Feanor so easily. I know Morgoth has been creating unrest among them, but they are giving up EVERYTHING, and Feanor hasn't been Mr Popular among them. But crowds can do stupid things.

I don't think this chapter puts the Valar in a good light, not that any do. They seem sad, contemplative, and not action-oriented. Their strongest action is a reactive and negative one, which is sending Mandos to curse the Noldor. That's not constructive at all.

And it's odd that Ulmo and Osse aren't allowed to wreak vengeance on the ship-stealers, but Uinen is. How does that work?

I like your teenager/parent analogy--very apt.

Does Feanor understand the Valar at all, or are there competing sources for this chapter? On the one hand he fears they'll force him to destroy the Silmarils, on the other he doesn't fear them one bit in his rebellious acts afterwards. 

I think the attack on the Teleri was wholly inexcusable. I have a sort of semi-pardon for Fingolfin's group, who thought that they were fighting defensively. But what I really want to know is why the Teleri had weapons at all. The Noldor had them because of Morgoth's propganda, but he didn't bother with the Teleri. Do the Vanyar have weapons too?

Philosophical cans should definitely be filled with philosophers, unless they are sitting on the head of a pin. Then you can put in the worms.

Why do you suppose Maedhros is the only one who dislikes the idea of abandoning the other host? 

They're fleeing their "imprisonment" by the Valar, as they see it. Or maybe they have wings, like balrogs do, they just can't fly across water with them.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 2:54am

Post #18 of 59 (1869 views)
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Look out, honey, the kids have grown up [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your comparison of Feanor's speech to Saruman's--right on target. They had similar names too: Curufinwe and Curunir, and were both Aule-types. How can Aule be so good and his groupies be so bad and misleading?

I've had another thought about the Oath: I think it was so extreme because Feanor is in effect saying the Valar are irrelevant, and the Noldor are taking their place in pursuing Morgoth (which they are). And that's also blasphemous.

This is so superb! 
"The Valar have always sort of both idealized and infantisized the Firstborn, without seeing their complexity and recognizing their differences - nor have they ever seemed to grasp that because the Song has darker notes, the Firstborn have the latitude to behave in ways they may not like very much." 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 3:21am

Post #19 of 59 (1871 views)
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Great job with Manwe [In reply to] Can't Post

I never understand his inaction. As noWiz says, he should be showing some leadership instead of brooding along with the rest. And he never seems that smart. But you've unearthed some smarts in that "airy" mind of his

"He knows nothing can stop Feanor from attempting to retake the Silmarils, as he and his sons just swore their terrible Oath. He's giving Feanor just enough rope to hang himself with."

For once the inaction of the Valar has a purpose! And I can forgive Manwe for miscalculating later, because at least he was calculating something.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 4:02am

Post #20 of 59 (1864 views)
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Nice take on the Oath! And about those craftsmen types... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I like your comparison of Feanor's speech to Saruman's--right on target. They had similar names too: Curufinwe and Curunir, and were both Aule-types. How can Aule be so good and his groupies be so bad and misleading?

I've had another thought about the Oath: I think it was so extreme because Feanor is in effect saying the Valar are irrelevant, and the Noldor are taking their place in pursuing Morgoth (which they are). And that's also blasphemous.

This is so superb!
"The Valar have always sort of both idealized and infantisized the Firstborn, without seeing their complexity and recognizing their differences - nor have they ever seemed to grasp that because the Song has darker notes, the Firstborn have the latitude to behave in ways they may not like very much."




Wow that is SO true - it pushes the Valar aside and usurps their authority and presumes them to be null and void, placing Feanor's house in their place. Blasphemous indeed!!!!!!

Indeed, those h. habilus (handy-man) types do stir things up, don't they! Your idea got me reading CG, and I found this in Letter #212, touching on the Valar and Aule specifically: ""Even the 'good' Valar as inhabiting the world could at least err; as the Great Valar did in their dealings with the Elves; or as the lesser of their kind (as the Istari or wizards) could in various ways become self-seeking. Aule, for instance, one of the Great, in a sense 'fell'; for he so desired to see the Children, he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator."

Hmmm - well can we all agree about the Great Valar erring? I feel safe with that, especially since JRRT said it too! And as for Aule, Feanor and the wizard Saruman, it seems that the 'crafting' mind can become impatient and seek to usurp Eru - that is their failing, and their Fall. Aule's was forgiven, and his Dwarves given life, as Eru laughed and saw Aule's humility after his rebuke. Saruman fares differently, as does Feanor - I don't think they have a *humble* bone in their bodies!!!! either of them!!!! so their Falls were complete, which is appropriate as their attempts at usurping the divine were also more damaging than merely impatiently expressing excited love, as was Aule's.

I keep coming back to the Silmarils being a baaaad idea.

(And thanks so much, CG Heartglad you like that last bit!)

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 6:50am

Post #21 of 59 (1858 views)
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Cookies. Yum. This is a website cookie policy I can relate to!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 7:26am

Post #22 of 59 (1863 views)
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A King Henry VIII moment? [In reply to] Can't Post

CuriousG exhibits Legolas-like accuracy:

Quote
I've had another thought about the Oath: I think it was so extreme because Feanor is in effect saying the Valar are irrelevant, and the Noldor are taking their place in pursuing Morgoth (which they are). And that's also blasphemous.


Reminded me of Henry 8, king of England. He became obsessed with fathering a legitimate child, and more interested in his pretty mistress as a means of doing so than his wife of many years. The church (England was Roman Catholic at this point) was a barrier, to this. It was also very rich, and the spendthrift king had credit card bills to pay. Meanwhile, reformation was swirling around Europe. I don't know whether Henry saw Protestantism as a convenient tool to get what he wanted, or became a true believer, or both at once. But the end result was the founding of the Church of England. The parallel I'm considering with Feanor is a willfull person who is also good at tapping into popular concerns, finding a wider or nobler motive for justifying what they want anyway.

Feanor is perhaps telling himself its his fillial duty to revenge his father, and his princely duty to free the Noldor from their now-outgrown relationship with the Valar. That goes down well with his constituents, and acts as moral cover for Feanors own obsessive need to recover the Silmarils.

Possibly all the Noldor have a tribal duty to revenge their murdered King? Do we know whether Elven culture includes blood feuds as yet?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 5:21pm

Post #23 of 59 (1839 views)
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Hijacking the public mood [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with your point here. It's a great comparison.

"Feanor is perhaps telling himself its his fillial duty to revenge his father, and his princely duty to free the Noldor from their now-outgrown relationship with the Valar. That goes down well with his constituents, and acts as moral cover for Feanors own obsessive need to recover the Silmarils."

He's manipulating the masses for his own agenda. They would grieve the loss of their king, so he can play on that. The destruction of the Trees has revealed the Valar as shockingly impotent (many of them vs. only one of Melkor). And Melkor's propaganda has convinced them that vast lands of milk and honey await them over the Sea.

Feanor is able to take those yearnings for revenge over Finwe, recovery of the pride of the Noldor (the Silmarils), and happy expansionism and pervert them into his own agenda of pure revenge, pure restoration of his own pride, and recovery of the Silmarils for himself, and only himself--I don't see him sharing them with anyone once he's retrieved them. The Noldor are being duped, and once again as "The Deep Elves," they're aren't deep enough to see through it.

So that's a great parallel of King He-Who-Had-Many-Wives. I personally don't think Henry had a deep personal commitment to Protestantism, he just saw it as a useful vehicle to hijack to get the divorce he wanted. Feanor (many sons, not many wives) didn't sincerely care about the Noldor, but he took advantage of their sentiments for selfish gain.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 10:23pm

Post #24 of 59 (1842 views)
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Haha. Manwe does make me rub my temples some times... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

For once the inaction of the Valar has a purpose! And I can forgive Manwe for miscalculating later, because at least he was calculating something.




Finwe's take also makes him a bit more 'real' as I can understand wanting Feanor to just go away at that point.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 20 2013, 10:31pm

Post #25 of 59 (1832 views)
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Nice historical reference NoWiz [In reply to] Can't Post

It does have that 'political' feel to it, using the identified problem in utilitarian fashion to get what you want, and having everyone buy it. I tend to think from Henry's bios that the usefulness of Protestantism was the defining factor, although he might even convince himself otherwise in later years. (And oddly enough - Anne Boleyn wasn't that much to look at..) It was a perfect storm of growing dissent and the Elf-lightning known as Feanor.

Like our Feanor, Henry's plans backfired too, in that case.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

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