Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion Discussion
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Finwe
Lorien


Apr 18 2013, 6:43pm

Post #1 of 36 (287 views)
Shortcut
Silmarillion Discussion Can't Post

I've got a question about our current book discussion. I made a new thread because the thread Curious started a few days ago is quite large, so I didn't want this to get missed. What type of schedule should we use for discussing each chapter? The old book discussions I was a part of in the Reading Room focused on a chapter each week, unless it was a particularly long chapter and was previously agreed upon to spend a little extra time. Since I have the next chapter for our Sil discussion, I assumed I'd be up next week and was planning on rolling out my first post next Monday. However, I noted that noWizardme still had a few posts for the current chapter up his sleeve, so I didn't want to step on anyone's toes. We thought our PM discussion would be best put to all the contributors. In the past, each chapter typically got 5 posts(1 per weekday) that were all active. As it takes a long time for RR threads to drop off the front page, sometimes threads would remain active for weeks. I'm not saying we have to go to that extreme, just want to give an idea of how the old RR handled things. That said, would you prefer we go with a weekly schedule or just kinda see how the discussion goes then move on when a chapter dies down?

I personally prefer a weekly schedule. It has been my experience that book discussions tend to get off track without a schedule to follow. Also, it gives the discussion leaders a date to prepare for. Real life can get in the way, so it can be hard to monitor the boards on a daily basis in order to gauge when it will be your turn to post. With a schedule, you know that April 29th is when your discussion starts, so you can prepare and at the very least drop in for a few minutes to post your questions if your time is limited. Also, with summer approaching, one might volunteer to lead a chapter, only to have the natural flow of the discussion make it so your week to lead falls right in the middle of your week-long vacation. Finally, in book discussion such as these, it's very difficult to resist the urge to jump ahead or reference future events. Our current chapter is a great example of that. We could discuss the entire Silmarillion based solely off the events of this chapter alone. Hope I don't sound like an old, tyrant football coach cracking the whip. Just want to get some feedback for my own benefit, as well as any future discussion leaders.

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fėanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 6:58pm

Post #2 of 36 (186 views)
Shortcut
Interested to get a steer on the current chapter... [In reply to] Can't Post

The 3-part structure I'd imagined has a flaw, in that a lot of the drama is the steadily escalating misunderstanding between Valar & Noldor - which is split across parts 1&3 inky scheme.

I could:
Wait for discussion to die down on current thread, then do thread 2 then 3 As originally planned, waiting for discussion to quieten each time (might take a while); or
Put 2& 3 up on a timetable we agree (would be good to decide that quickly;) or
Post 2 and 3 simultaneously: people would need to monitor all the threads & link between any posts in one thread that relates to another. But that's not too different from normal practice.

Let me know! It's probably going to be difficult to please all, given the very different amounts of time for reading & posting that people have.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 18 2013, 7:17pm

Post #3 of 36 (178 views)
Shortcut
As one of the newest members in the RR, and least experienced... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm easy. I will very happily toddle along with any scheme you both come up with.
If in the long run we return to the simultaneous multiple-thread per chapter format, it would perhaps lend itself to some thematic and /or sectional dissections (since we are a bunch that seems to hare off that way anyway, like small children playing soccer?) Not sure if in the past this has been confusing or not, as I have been reading everything in 'batches" as opposed to real-time. And of course some of our threads live longer than others which doesn't preclude beginning the next chapter, which as Finwe very rightly points out will be easier if there is at least an agreed-upon start date. (That seems an important fixture for everyone's sanity.)

Thrilled to have such wonderful TORnsibs around and about. Angelic

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 18 2013, 7:26pm)


Ardamķrė
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 7:43pm

Post #4 of 36 (169 views)
Shortcut
My 2 cents [In reply to] Can't Post

My problem with doing multiple discussions on the same chapter is that the leader often puts in a lot of detail and then gets maybe one or two responses. This, I think, was one of the reasons that regular book discussions had tapered off.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 18 2013, 7:50pm

Post #5 of 36 (164 views)
Shortcut
I wondered how that went in the actual discussion frame [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My problem with doing multiple discussions on the same chapter is that the leader often puts in a lot of detail and then gets maybe one or two responses. This, I think, was one of the reasons that regular book discussions had tapered off.




So do you feel in general one thread is better to maintain momentum (except in larger chapters?) It's hard to tell from reading a full thread after the fact...

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Ardamķrė
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 8:03pm

Post #6 of 36 (159 views)
Shortcut
Personally, yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there's more actual "discussion" in one (or maybe two) large discussions. When there's more than that, it often turns into a list of posts only answering the OP's questions, and often the list of posts is very short.

Just my thoughts on the observations I've made over the years.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Finwe
Lorien


Apr 18 2013, 8:20pm

Post #7 of 36 (153 views)
Shortcut
I agree about the segmented posts [In reply to] Can't Post

I actually think the way noWizardme went about breaking up our current chapter is perfect. Try and find the various themes within the chapter and break it up that way, if necessary. The discussion flows much more freely that way. Especially in the Sil, where some of the chapters are very short and don't need more than 1 post. What are your thoughts on a scheduled vs. casual chapter discussion?

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fėanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 8:55pm

Post #8 of 36 (151 views)
Shortcut
Another 2 cents [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, we went with the casual approach to revive participation in the RR. And we targeted one per week for that same reason: only 1 to prepare for the leader, and only 1 for readers to reply to. There was also the consideration, as Ardamire points out, that having 5 posts per chapter, which was the norm, had less back and forth discussion and usually just a few people answering the OP's questions, rather than the far-ranging debates we've been enjoying lately. And when you lead a chapter and put time into 5 posts and only get a few replies or no replies, it's discouraging after the time you put into it. And as a reader, I often had trouble finding time to reply to 5 posts per chapter, so it was frustrating on both sides. Not that 5 posts/chap were ever mandated, it was just the norm. But both leaders and readers were dropping out, so we needed to try something new.

So we went casual to lighten the load, but being too casual can lead to anarchy, and your points about scheduling make sense, especially with summer coming up. Our de facto schedule has been roughly one chapter per week, regardless of number of posts. I'd still like to adhere to the "roughly" one per week so that people don't get stressed about meeting a deadline on a certain day, and then feel they must apologize for being late, and then don't want to lead again.

What I'd propose is this:
1. We target one chapter per week. If the previous chapter's discussion overlaps, it won't for long.
2. Leaders do 1 post/chapter, unless they'd like to do more.
3. If leaders want to do more than 1/chap, they should post them on consecutive days.

How does this sound to everyone? We could have a sticky with the schedule. And honestly, I didn't know at the beginning if the discussion would last past the first few chapters, so I was reluctant to schedule the whole book. But it seems we don't need to worry about that prospect now. Though I would still like to avoid locking up the schedule for the whole book right now so that people who are new, or lurking, can volunteer for a chapter mid-stream--there are plenty of chapters to go around. Though if someone has their heart set on a later chapter, such as The Ruin of Doriath or whatever, it's fine to speak up now and claim it.

So if everyone agrees, then we'd just ask noWiz to post his next 2 posts (which he has been jealously withholding in a Feanor-like way to agonize us--kidding!) now, and you could post next week, real-Finwe (vs book-Finwe). How does that sound?

Thanks for bringing this up, RL-Finwe.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 18 2013, 11:06pm

Post #9 of 36 (138 views)
Shortcut
I'm in for that! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds great, and as Ardamire points out from history it should keep the pace going and keep more people in the discussions. As you said in earlier posts CG some chapters we will in advance spend more time with as befits the text.

Sweet. Now NoWiz has to pony-up with the highly anticipated follow-ups for this week... Cool (huh-huh. I said pony.)

I ran into the RL / text Finwe issue too last night when answering a post (was addressing RL Finwe, talking about 'Finwe' - waaay too many Finwe's in that post, had to do some editing...!!) Expecting any number of oddities once we get to Men into the West and Turin with my nick as well Blush

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 11:18pm

Post #10 of 36 (134 views)
Shortcut
Yes, we're going to say [In reply to] Can't Post

"Forest of Brethil? You mean she has her own? Will she invite us there? Can we bring our ponies?"


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 11:22pm

Post #11 of 36 (135 views)
Shortcut
i like curiousg's approach [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'd like to strive for a balance of scheduling the discussions so that those who are eager to discuss the next chapter can, and so we are considerate of the discussion leader's schedule.

that being said, i would also love to see people feel free to continue to post on any previous chapter discussion threads they like. good discussion breeds good discussion, and you never know where it's going to turn up.

additionally, this might also encourage new posters or lurkers to post. i remember coming tot the reading room and thinking that there was some sort of etiquette that meant that i shouldn't post to a chapter thread that had already begun (sort of like interrupting a conversation).

now i see that that's not true.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 11:32pm

Post #12 of 36 (127 views)
Shortcut
Etiquette??? For anarchists? Nay! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 11:36pm

Post #13 of 36 (126 views)
Shortcut
i love it when you trot out your shadowfax impression. // [In reply to] Can't Post

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Finwe
Lorien


Apr 18 2013, 11:58pm

Post #14 of 36 (120 views)
Shortcut
Very well said [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with everything you said. I think we've got a pretty good thing going right now. I really wanted to make sure I didn't step out of line by letting my old RR habits mess up anything, especially after reading that 2009 thread sador linked to.

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fėanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 12:04am

Post #15 of 36 (115 views)
Shortcut
Everyone is invited into the Forest! And bring all your lovely ponies...! [In reply to] Can't Post

(**wildly waving hands** PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE SIGN....!)

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Finwe
Lorien


Apr 19 2013, 12:11am

Post #16 of 36 (116 views)
Shortcut
Also feel free to start new threads outside the discussions [In reply to] Can't Post

That was one of the old complaints about the RR: when a book discussion was going on, any independent threads got very little response. I think we're Tolkien starved enough that we can have many different discussions going at once. Again, I do not want in any way to limit discussion. As a first time chapter leader, I just wanted some clarification on when to begin my chapter, as well as clear up any confusion for future chapter leaders. Communication problems were the common issue in past RR hiccups, so i didn't want that to be an issue here. Thanks to everyone for being so responsive. Smile

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fėanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 19 2013, 12:15am

Post #17 of 36 (115 views)
Shortcut
Check out Daniel's attached pink pony photo in Feedback [In reply to] Can't Post

OMG, pony-lovers are taking over TORN! Valinor, how do I escape to thee?!

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=595928#595928


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 19 2013, 12:30am

Post #18 of 36 (106 views)
Shortcut
Yes, I was afraid of insulting RL-Finwe [In reply to] Can't Post

By saying negative things about book-Finwe, so I figured we needed a distinction. Now we can freely say "Book-Finwe was a fat, lazy, slob" without the real one taking harm.

Though I will warn my TORNsibs in advance that there is no CuriousG in Tolkien, so any fat, lazy slob comments directed towards him, no matter how accurate, will produce Feanorian reactions that even Mandos could not foresee.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 12:31am

Post #19 of 36 (103 views)
Shortcut
I looked - Oh, that's lovely that is... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and quite unforgettable. I shall never look at DanielLB quite the same. A Pink Day would be a scream; we could balance it with a Goth Day maybe.

As far as 'ponies' go, it's all Thorin's fault for saying "Give him a pony." in that diamonds-wrapped-in-velvet voice ...

(**deep breath**)

Stopping right there. I made a resolution to behave with proper dignity in the RR. No need to bail to Valinor CG (although you could give us updates: Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one.") (???)

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 19 2013, 12:38am

Post #20 of 36 (110 views)
Shortcut
Yes, I'm really grateful you brought this up. [In reply to] Can't Post

Communicating things openly, often, and in advance should help minimize any hiccups and keep us focused on enjoying the discussions.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 9:08am

Post #21 of 36 (86 views)
Shortcut
Thanks everyone! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this is a good solution. If there is no schedule, then it is hard to know when to take the baton from ones predecessor without snatching. And of course people who agreed to do later chapters might be put in difficulties (their chapter now comes up during a busy time for them etc.)

So I'll post up my other points this week.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 10:04am

Post #22 of 36 (79 views)
Shortcut
done - [In reply to] Can't Post

There are two of them:
One for the scene in which Melkor (aka Morgoth) and Ungoliant fall out over the spoils
One for the third scene in this chapter, which directly continues the action in Valinor (which comprises the first scene; the material we have been discussing in this thread).

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 10:53am

Post #23 of 36 (79 views)
Shortcut
i think i'm not understanding... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
of course, nowimė, you should lead your chapter discussion as you think best, but i think i'm not understanding the reasoning for splitting the specific chapter discussion among three threads.

one of the reasons you stated was that you thought folks might be inhibited from discussing certain aspects (i.e., what's driving the noldor and valar apart), but isn't everything within a chapter fair game? and wouldn't splitting the discussion into three threads create the hesitancy to post certain things that you're trying to avoid (e.g., "maybe i shouldn't post this comment on thread #1... should i post it on thread #3? is that a better fit?")?

to me, keeping all the discussion for a specific chapter under one roof makes more sense, especially since these follow up questions in threads #2 and #3 are so short.

but i was not a part of or witness to whatever way the reading room successfully functioned in the past. i am merely offering my opinion on the present state.

edited to add: i'm not advocating for a course correction, necessarily... just sharing my thoughts... i'm happy to go with nowimė's flow for the current chapter.

many cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 19 2013, 10:59am)


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 11:39am

Post #24 of 36 (71 views)
Shortcut
hard to know what is better... [In reply to] Can't Post

But both Finwe (username) and I were holding off on our theories about the Manwe/Feanor political clash in the Part 1 thread, so I was eager to get Part 3 up & running to avoid too much of that. I agree, potentially it could be irritating to juggle multiple simultaneous (or even sequential) threads.

The usual reason for dividing is a concern that there is too much to discuss all at once (the host puts up very many questions and the thread splinters into a confusing array of answers and further questions). Things get overlooked, posts get lost in the mess of sub-threads and so on. Separate threads can be easier to follow (until teh chapter host gets the division wrong, which I begin to feel I did this time).

But the counter-argument is that what really matters is for a good discussion to flow. Similarly some people hold off on any material that would be a spoiler for a participant who hasn't read the book completely yet, others don't, and sometimes it would be next to impossible to make a point without alluding to a later chapter. I suppose there is always the option of starting a new thread for an idea sparked by a chapter discussion, but which is much broader in scope.

And the counter-counter-argument is that I'm over-thinking this.......Anyway, 'tis done now, so lets see how it works out. "If you had fun, you won" (according to the Wizard Bear in the Big Blue House)

"nowimė" ? -You've translated my username into horse? Wink Whatever Bill the Pony has been saying about me, you should know it's not true...........well, except for the bit about the oats..................

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 12:02pm

Post #25 of 36 (65 views)
Shortcut
re "nowimė" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
re "nowimė"

.... not horses, nor ponies.. i "elvenized" it... thought it was fun and humorous... i will desist, if you prefer... it is your name, after all.

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 19 2013, 12:03pm)

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.