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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
more uruks than anyone wanted, perhaps

Elthir
Rohan

Apr 18 2013, 6:10pm


Views: 101
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more uruks than anyone wanted, perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post


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There's no reason to believe that certain words from the Black Speech would only be known to Isengard orcs if they had originally come from Mordor. It is mentioned in "The Uruk-Hai" that "Apparently the members of two or three quite different tribes were present, and they could not understand one another’s orc-speech." We know that there were the bow-legged Mordor orcs present, and these were Grishnakh's company. We know that there were smaller "goblins" from the north present. And then there was Ugluk and the "fighting Uruk-hai", or the "Isengarders". So apparently, even though the Isengard Uruk-hai knew how to say at least one phrase in the Black Speech, they still did not speak or understand it fluently.



Well Orc-speech does not necessarily mean Black Speech in any case, even for the Mordorians. But anyway I said the term Uruk-hai naturally 'hails' from Mordor and thus I see no reason to restrict it to Saruman's Uruks -- in other words, Uruk-hai can easily be a term used in Mordor to describe Uruks.

In other other words, the Uruk-hai of Isengard are 'Orc-folk' as the Uruk-hai of Mordor would be 'Orc-folk' too, with no indication that Sauron bred his Uruks from Men. Some have argued that the term Uruk-hai was reserved only for the Isengarders [because they were special beings], so I was 'responding' to that a bit... although you hadn't said so in any case.

I had rambled into other territory there I guess Smile



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I think that Treebeard's description of "Isengarders" being better equipped to deal with sunlight would certainly describe the Uruk-hai.
Here is a short little exchange between a Northerner "goblin" and Ugluk, taken from "The Uruk-Hai" -

‘Now straight on!’ shouted Uglúk. ‘West and a little north. Follow Lugdush.’
‘But what are we going to do at sunrise?’ said some of the Northerners.
‘Go on running,’ said Uglúk. ‘What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?’
‘But we can’t run in the sunlight.’
‘You’ll run with me behind you,’ said Uglúk. ‘Run! Or you’ll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What’s the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!’


This would seem to indicate that Ugluk and the rest of his Uruk-hai were more tolerant of the sun, and would fit the description of what Treebeard described.




I note what Ugluk himself notes here -- which indicates [or arguably so] that the Isengarders are better trained than the Northerners. Again nothing necessarily to do with mannish blood even makes the Isengarders better under the Sun than other orcs.

And yes, the Isengarders boast a lot about the Sun, perhaps putting more emphasis on this than they can truly claim, but the Mordorians and even some of the Northerners arguably run just as well. What if Treebeard saw these larger bolder Northerners, or Mordorians, run under the Sun?

Maybe he might add other possibilities than the two he guessed at.




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I do not believe the term "man-orc" is used at all, outside of Morgoth's Ring. It's usually either "half-orc", or "orc-men". In Unfinished Tales, at the Battle of the the Fords of Isen, Theodred's company is assailed by Dunlendings, orcs, Uruk-hai, AND "orc-men". Tolkien's description of the "orc-men" are that they were treacherous and vile, and these are the ones you've tagged the "spies".




Did I tag one specifically? Perhaps you are looking at the order in which I described the two 'kinds' compared to the MR quote, but that wasn't intentional really, I was just describing both.



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I'll concede that it is not impossible that some of the group you refer to as the "spies" served as soldiers, but why then was every type of Isengarder present at that battle EXCEPT for the "goblin-faced" variety, who, according to your argument, were separate from the spies?



Present at what battle? Merry notes the goblin-faced half-orcs leaving Isengard to do battle. I'm a bit confused here.




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Yep, it's all speculation, either way. But large orcs bred with large orcs likely would not create better resistance ot sunlight, as was shown by Ugluk and company.



But training could be the factor concerning the Sun, as [I think is] arguably implied by Ugluk himself.

I note also the emphasis on training Saruman's 'Uruks' noted in Unfinished Tales [the term Uruk-hai is not used there] where Saruman's uruks are said to be trained to move at great speed for many miles.




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Then again, there is the matter of the Olog-hai trolls, who were resistant to sunlight, and I do find it hard to believe that men would be cross-bred with trolls as well, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility (we are talking about a fantasy world here). Whatever the case may be, it looks pretty clear to me that the Uruk-hai were more than simply a product of breeding large orcs with other large orcs. Doesn't prove that they were part-man, but it IS a good theory.



The Olog-hai could '... endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.' [Appendix F].



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Maybe I got a bit gung-ho in trying to argue my point, which I tend to do sometimes LOL. But I still stand by my argument. Your argument is certainly valid too, much more valid than I believed it was BEFORE we got into this debate. This has been an enlightening exchange.



Wait... 'much more valid' than you believed before? So you are inching toward the idea... I have you now Skywalker...

... yes, yes... come to the dark side of the force.

No wait! My argument should be the light side [because it's mine] Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 18 2013, 6:19pm)

Subject User Time
in (PJ's middle-earth) orcs can venture out into sunlight... MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Apr 14 2013, 7:57pm
    Orcs can endure the sunlight in the books too... QuackingTroll Send a private message to QuackingTroll Apr 14 2013, 8:25pm
        Interesting thing about the orcs in TTT QuackingTroll Send a private message to QuackingTroll Apr 14 2013, 8:29pm
            Re: orc camp in TTT dik-dik Send a private message to dik-dik Apr 14 2013, 9:10pm
            Haha!!! MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Apr 14 2013, 10:56pm
            I think they were suppose to be running non stop for 3 days and they only stopped because a couple Orks were complaining. besides that it seems like their intentions was to keep going. Dlanor da Great Send a private message to Dlanor da Great Apr 17 2013, 12:40am
    If memory serves me correctly emre43 Send a private message to emre43 Apr 15 2013, 7:21am
    Tolkien's orcs under the sun Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 15 2013, 5:14pm
        thanks for the info! MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Apr 16 2013, 2:02am
        Re: Silmarillion orcs and sunlight dik-dik Send a private message to dik-dik Apr 16 2013, 11:07am
            external concerns Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 16 2013, 2:04pm
        Uruk-hai Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Apr 16 2013, 4:28pm
            Uruk-hai Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 16 2013, 10:27pm
                The name "uruk-hai" was not specifically mentioned... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Apr 16 2013, 11:09pm
                    Morgoth's Ring Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 17 2013, 6:00pm
                        Uruk-hai Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Apr 17 2013, 7:25pm
                            more on the Uruks Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 18 2013, 12:19pm
                                PS on Uruks Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 18 2013, 12:43pm
                                Uruks continued Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Apr 18 2013, 3:00pm
                                    more uruks than anyone wanted, perhaps Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 18 2013, 6:10pm
                                        Another PS Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 18 2013, 6:34pm
                                        Yes, much more than I'm sure either of us wanted as well... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Apr 18 2013, 7:13pm
                                            a matter of measure? Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 20 2013, 2:51pm
                                                Mostly seems to be lack of concrete evidence (your position) vs strong implications (my position) Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Apr 20 2013, 4:56pm
                                                    my position and evidence Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 20 2013, 7:16pm
    That's it exactly... Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Apr 16 2013, 9:55pm

 
 
 

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