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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
This Movie will grow with us...
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DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 18 2013, 1:06pm

Post #26 of 56 (322 views)
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Do you think it is a better adaptation? [In reply to] Can't Post

I love both AUJ and the LOTR films. But I admit that they have done a much better job this time around at bringing Tolkien's work onto film. In my opinion, it is a far better adaptation.

Do you just not like the film, and don't think it's a very good adaptation, or that it is a very good adaptation but not a very good film?

Smile


imin
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 1:12pm

Post #27 of 56 (319 views)
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No i think it is a worse adaptation [In reply to] Can't Post

For me the lotr movies at least felt like they were something similar to the books in terms of 'spirit'

This movie has created so much extra - they say from the appendices, but if you read the appendices and then look at what they have done they really just made the stuff up.

The changes made have changed the tone/feel of the movie such as having them chased by orcs from the moment they set off. I can see why it was done in the movie, especially after they changed it to having 3 movies but i feel it changes the story from The Hobbit to PJ's Middle-earthish movie.

I think it is a not very good film and not a very good adaptation either. This is not to say i think the LOTR films are incredible adaptations - there have been far more faithful films but being faithful to a source doesn't mean the film will turn out better.

I think had the film tried to be more about the hobbit itself rather than the mass of excess that we have had and will be getting it would have worked out better but i guess PJ et al felt they needed to connect this to his LOTR better.

With so much extra invented (fan fic) stuff i dont see how it can be called a faithful adaptation and with it changing the tone of the book in the film i don't think it can be seen as a successful one either.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 1:26pm

Post #28 of 56 (338 views)
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again I agree [In reply to] Can't Post



Quote
For me this movie is simply not as good as the other three, never has been and never will be - to me it seems obvious that it is the poorer relation though of course people feel otherwise. I wish i had liked it more but it's only a movie and there are the next two to be hopeful about and if they are just the same then i will be disappointed again but the works of J.R.R Tolkien will still be there to enjoy which i feel have a richer feel to them than any film could give - nature of film etc.

The film could have been so much better while staying true to Tolkien. Do people really find the mess we got with Azog more satisfying than Tolkien's rich detailed account of the real death of Thror, the history of the dwarf and goblin war, the actual events of the battle of Azanulbizar, or Dain Ironfoot's involvement in those events? I guess I'm just dissatisfied with events on screen that I feel are a disappointment compared to the events Tolkien gave us

Have people in general become so shallow, they can not think while seeing a film? Maybe I'm a minority but I enjoy seeing a film that makes me think, and imagine untold details. A film that leaves me wanting more so that I go home and research as much as I can because I found the mental stimulation fascinating. I prefer that to some sit back have some mindless fun, munch some popcorn, OTT unthinking spectacle film.



DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 18 2013, 1:28pm

Post #29 of 56 (318 views)
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Fascinating [In reply to] Can't Post

It's funny how we have always agreed on almost everything, and yet, we couldn't disagree more on this. Wink It's always strange how things work out.

I fully appreciate where your coming from. I'm not going to say: "you're wrong", because at the end of the day whether we like the film and whether we think it is a good adaptation comes down to personal preference. And I agree with you regarding the appendices. They've made some frustrating changes that seem to have over-complicated the plot, when it doesn't need to be.

From my perspective, I feel I could read The Hobbit, and then watch AUJ, and think: "yes, this is a good adaptation, they've done as best they can to bring the essence of the book to life, with some changes which is inevtibale with any book-to-movie adaptaion"

While I love the LOTR films, I can't say the same about it. They're fantastic films, but they don't really capture the essence of the books. I think the changes made to TH are more forgivable than some of the changes (and omissions) to the LOTR films.

To put it another way ... I couldn't recommend the LOTR films to someone without recommending the books first. I feel, at least partly, I could recommend AUJ (and hopefully DOS and TABA) before recommending the book. But I'm basing this just on AUJ, and tend to ignore the parts I don't like. Wink Next year could be a lot different!

On a semi-related note, I really wish someone from the Tolkien family was involved in the making of these films. A little nudge here and there wouldn't do either side (PJ and co, and Tolkien and co) any damage.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 18 2013, 1:36pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 18 2013, 1:33pm

Post #30 of 56 (328 views)
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I'll try not to take offense from that ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Have people in general become so shallow ...


I certainly hope I'm not "shallow" for liking the "OTT unthinking spectacle film".

Wink

I don't think anyone has ever said that they prefer the films to the books (or the way things/events occur in the films than in the books). You can still enjoy the film, which I very much do, and still think that the films will only ever be secondary to the books.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 1:37pm

Post #31 of 56 (318 views)
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I wouls also say worse [In reply to] Can't Post

with the LOTR they set out to adapt the books to film and were constantly reverting back to those books, and as imin said they at least tried to keep the spirit of Tolkien in those films. With the Hobbit I think they were more concerned with changing them right from the start, altering the story to make it fit more with Jackson's own LOTR films instead of thinking of the source material with any reverence in its own right.

They changed as much or more of the story than they kept of the source material at this point in the tale. which to me is not adapting as much as it is making up. I would say it was a much better adaptation if they had kept the whole film like they did Baggend, but once it became more about the spectacle than the story I felt let down with it as an adaptation because it lost the feel of Tolkien's book.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 1:41pm

Post #32 of 56 (325 views)
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No offence was intended [In reply to] Can't Post

it was just a generalization. I meant nobody specific. I'm also not saying its a bad thing for others. If OTT was what you were looking for in a film I'm sure it was quite satisfying. But for me I find it sad that there was one chance to make the greatest film of all time IMO and we got The Hobbit AUJ instead.


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Apr 18 2013, 1:43pm)


imin
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 1:45pm

Post #33 of 56 (303 views)
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It is strange isn't it? lol. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think it is helped for me by the fact i think AUJ is just the poor relation - when i say i don't think its very good, i don't mean it is a bad film, just it isn't at the level of the three previous M-e films.

I think i would always recommend reading the books first if possible for anyone with nearly any film. As for me most of the time the book is better than the film. I think both AUJ and all the LOTR movies are not as good as the books they are from. For me though the LOTR movies basically contracted what was in the books, in AUJ they simply changed stuff so that it is no longer like the book - sure they added everything that is in those chapters - should be a good adaptation right? But then they go an add loads more fan fic which then changes how you see the film and the tone of it becomes more LOTR-lite and that isn't really what this part of the hobbit is like - though that is just my opinion of course.

Some of the changes they have made i think are mistakes and almost seem like changes just for the sake of trying to be different to the book and they have ended up giving themselves some future headaches in terms of characters - talking about stuff related to Azanulbizar which i know is a problem for some.

For me an adaptation doesn't have to be faithful to be good. In AUJ though the changes made i feel are not as good as what was already there, in other films they may have increased what was in the book and that's why some films are better than the books.

I think it comes down to i still think the best medium for telling a story is in books and i feel this is especially true for ones as rich and deep as Tolkien's. I just don't really think they can cover the same ground on film as it would just seem flabby and over indulgent. That is why i don't mind the contractions made to the LOTR movies as i understand why they were added and although i like characters such as Tom Bombadil, i can see why he was omitted.

For AUJ i understand with 3 films to fill they have to add more stuff otherwise they would run out of things to show, have a 3 hour battle of five armies or be too boring for most people to watch - slow pace. I still think the films would have been better if kept to their original 2 films - sure 3 hours less M-e but i would rather have 6 hours of great M-e than 9 hours of OK M-e.

For me the fan fic stuff - which others will say is just part of adapting a work which is fine but lets be honest its just made up - even if it works well and at this point i think its too early for some of it and for others didn't work - it still changes the story from that of the book and the changes they have decided to add have led to a change in the tone of the film from a company going through middle earth having adventures to one that is trying to show the greater geopolitical aspects of M-e for me that changes the tone - for some in a positive way, for others in a negative and for you in no way, lol.

So yeah to round up, not as great a film as the previous trilogy and not as good at keeping the spirit as the previous trilogy but not truly terrible or anything either and with the hope of getting better in the next two movies where i think the book naturally starts to get a little bit closer to how lotr is.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 18 2013, 2:07pm

Post #34 of 56 (318 views)
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Bomby Apologizes... [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, go OUTSIDE and
PLAY
your Guitars?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNvtnd7hyQ4


(This post was edited by Bombadil on Apr 18 2013, 2:07pm)


imin
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 2:11pm

Post #35 of 56 (297 views)
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Haha brilliant! [In reply to] Can't Post

And more faithful to the books due to having long beards Tongue

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 2:33pm

Post #36 of 56 (299 views)
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If only Thorin and Kili had beards like that.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink....Laugh


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 3:33pm

Post #37 of 56 (281 views)
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Makes 2 of us then [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to shake my head at that part. Crazy

I love all four films. I think they do a superb job of capturing the "essence" of the books and visually show people just how amazing the world Tolkien created is. They are not as good as the books though and I would never utter those words myself.



DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 18 2013, 3:38pm

Post #38 of 56 (275 views)
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I would also get someone to read the books first as well [In reply to] Can't Post

It's if someone refused to read the book, then I think The Hobbit does a better job of representing the book. I'd never recommend the film/s over the book/s.

The one benefit of these films, though, is how they introduce so many people to Tolkien's world that may never have known it otherwise. Whether the films are any good or not doesn't really matter - at least they get people interested though.



Smile


Old Toby
Gondor


Apr 18 2013, 4:00pm

Post #39 of 56 (282 views)
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Okay, so run me out of town on a rail if you like [In reply to] Can't Post

but I will stand up and say I much prefer the Hobbit movie to the book in many ways! Yup. I said it! And therefore I suppose some here will consider me a shallow, uneducated person entertained by only frivolous action and meaningless, trite drivel - which may be their opinion, but certainly is not fact. Ever since FOTR this subject has been beaten to death and to me is entirely pointless. As much as I love the books, I also appreciate and love the films that PJ has done on their own merits. That's not so say I love every single aspect of every single film, but hey, I've never seen a film that I can say that of. Oh, wait. I take that back. For me, David Lean's Lawrence of Arabia was cinematic perfection. But I digress. I can understand criticisms aimed at films based on a lot of things, but not to measure the quality of a film by how closely it follows its book source. (Another aside: I also read Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom. Thank goodness David Lean made the film he did!) Okay, I've said my piece on this topic and won't say it again.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 18 2013, 4:03pm

Post #40 of 56 (273 views)
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Just to clarify ... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no problem with someone liking the films more than the books, and vise versa. An opinion is an opinion, and isn't anymore right (or wrong) than anyone else's.

Smile


Elenorflower
Gondor


Apr 18 2013, 4:30pm

Post #41 of 56 (269 views)
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Unfortunately not only has AUJ not [In reply to] Can't Post

grown on me, it never really made a deep impression on me to begin with. It was a bit meh. Unlike LOTR which I fell in love with from the first moment I watched it.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 18 2013, 4:52pm

Post #42 of 56 (265 views)
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Your phrasing was offensive [In reply to] Can't Post

regardless of your intent. I'm leaving it here because the responses are great, however when you say "Have people in general become so shallow, they can not think while seeing a film?" you have violated our Terms of Service regarding negative comments about other people. You can disagree with someone, but you can not denigrate their motives or their opinions, even if you're making a general statement. Continued violations will result in a warning.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 5:02pm

Post #43 of 56 (261 views)
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nothing wrong with that [In reply to] Can't Post

as DanielLB said its opinion which everyone has a unique one. I can respect that.

My disappointment is that Peter Jackson could have followed the book, there is no reason he shouldn't have. He chose not to follow it for no reason other than to change it because he wanted to IMO. The books material done in the style of LOTR would have been amazingly entertaining to mass audiences if given a chance. But it was never given that chance. Thus far the production team has done nothing to say to deny they merely changed the story for no good reason other than they wanted to. There has been no comments about going back to the source material. but has been many comments about changing things based on the appendices. Which from all my times reading those, they used nothing other than names and places and made up their own story instead. A film maker who loves the source material, would have made this film with reverence to the source material, at least in my mind. Not just figured out a way to manipulate it so they could go OTT in more scenes, rather than stay true to the source. I can think of many many ways they could have stuck to the story Tolkien wrote and made the whole thing entertaining without making it a OTT farce of itself


Rostron2
Gondor


Apr 18 2013, 6:34pm

Post #44 of 56 (225 views)
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I wish [In reply to] Can't Post

More of the youngsters would listen Bomby. Life's too short to complain. Stay well.


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 18 2013, 9:13pm

Post #45 of 56 (197 views)
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I should have also probably said earlier on... [In reply to] Can't Post

That I do also prefer the LOTR films over AUJ (so far).

It might be a better adaptation in my eyes, but the LOTR translates better on film than AUJ. And I think it's down to a combination of factors, rather than one single reason.

Smile


imin
Valinor


Apr 18 2013, 10:17pm

Post #46 of 56 (199 views)
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I should mention i have no problem with people preferring the films over the books [In reply to] Can't Post

Though they are of course wrong, lol. Tongue

Nah, doesn't bother me, people can like whatever they want.

I still think the LOTR films represents the books better as the whole extra plots added to AUJ and the future films are no where to be seen in the book but i can see if you feel this fits in well then it would be no problem.

I do think it opens the world of Tolkien to people who may never had otherwise come across it. This is a good thing and is one of the few things i think C.Tolkien or some representative of the Tolkien Estate should have made a point on.

I was not trying to change your (or anyone's) opinion before when i wrote the longer message, merely give my opinion, just in case it came across as otherwise, I'm glad people like it and for me to want to change that just seems cruel and never would.

Can't wait for the next trailer of DOS - i'm hoping its coming with Man of Steel as the new trailer for that looks awesome and so might get to see the trailer in the cinema!

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 18 2013, 11:23pm

Post #47 of 56 (184 views)
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Agree with what you say about bringing JRRT to the world [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Though they are of course wrong, lol. Tongue (I always love your open-mindedness ...**razzberry and giggle** Tongue back!!!)
Nah, doesn't bother me, people can like whatever they want. And the books are always there...that will never change. So even though you and I for example are not in exactly the same 'camp' we will always have the love of the text regardless of how the films appeal to us. Do I love the films? I do, so I don't have to wait to have them appeal to me...and revisiting JRRT whether in film or text or both can be a lifelong pleasure.
I still think the LOTR films represents the books better as the whole extra plots added to AUJ and the future films are no where to be seen in the book but i can see if you feel this fits in well then it would be no problem. I do think it opens the world of Tolkien to people who may never had otherwise come across it. This is a good thing and is one of the few things i think C.Tolkien or some representative of the Tolkien Estate should have made a point on.
So, so true, ultimately; and even if we have three 'taste' camps - book only, book and film or just film - the work is out to the public so much more than it ever used to be. I am a book and film person, and can enjoy the films on their own merits while the books live in an entirely different level of love in my head, but my fondest hope from the time of knowing FOTR was being made is that it would show the world what we all have such passion for, in many cases to people who would never be exposed to it otherwise.
Can't wait for the next trailer of DOS - i'm hoping its coming with Man of Steel as the new trailer for that looks awesome and so might get to see the trailer in the cinema!Me as well! Smile




.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2013, 1:43am

Post #48 of 56 (180 views)
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It kind of had the opposite effect on me... [In reply to] Can't Post

When I first saw it in the theater, I immediately loved it. I was certainly surprised at some of the changes, but I loved it nonetheless. It was after my second viewing that I thought to myself "Wow, this is almost a completely different story." At least half of what happens in-between the trolls and Goblin-town is made-up - what I was lead to believe was going to be appendices material was actually complete fan-fiction loosely based on said appendix material.

I think the changes stopped bugging me around my fourth or fifth viewing, and I just accepted them. It's certainly not the adaptation I expected or wanted, but I suppose it's good enough.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Apr 19 2013, 1:47am)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 19 2013, 2:01am

Post #49 of 56 (176 views)
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I think this will be me. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think the changes stopped bugging me around my fourth or fifth viewing, and I just accepted them. It's certainly not the adaptation I expected or wanted, but I suppose it's good enough.


I don't intend to watch it again until the EE comes out. But even then, the bits I don't like will still be there. I expect I'll get used to them, though.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 19 2013, 3:16am

Post #50 of 56 (158 views)
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What was added versus what was taken away. This Movie kept almost EVERYTHING [In reply to] Can't Post

that appears in the chapters of the Hobbit that it covers, and for the most part it does so in an excellent and wonderful manner (except for the over the top lithotransformers). However it also adds material, supposedly from the appendices, some of which bears not the slightest resemblance to anything in The Appendecies.

By Contrast. . . The Rings Films leave things out. . . in some cases BIG things. There were, at times, sound reasons for this. At other times, it came across as the same creative laziness or lack of insight that led to some of the worse alterations to the appendectical material in The Hobbit. The failure to explain the connection of The Three and The Elves to The One was a greivous oversight, and the removal of Galadriel's lines concerning it a horrible misstep, and that is merely one example, one of the more notable ones because it effected the overall ability of an uninitiated audience to fully understand the themes and larger connections of the story.

In the end, which was more properly faithful may come down to something as simple as whether one missed Tom Bombadil and Glorfindel in one film set more than they resented Radagast and Galadriel in another.

In Reply To
Though they are of course wrong, lol. Tongue

Nah, doesn't bother me, people can like whatever they want.

I still think the LOTR films represents the books better as the whole extra plots added to AUJ and the future films are no where to be seen in the book but i can see if you feel this fits in well then it would be no problem.

I do think it opens the world of Tolkien to people who may never had otherwise come across it. This is a good thing and is one of the few things i think C.Tolkien or some representative of the Tolkien Estate should have made a point on.

I was not trying to change your (or anyone's) opinion before when i wrote the longer message, merely give my opinion, just in case it came across as otherwise, I'm glad people like it and for me to want to change that just seems cruel and never would.

Can't wait for the next trailer of DOS - i'm hoping its coming with Man of Steel as the new trailer for that looks awesome and so might get to see the trailer in the cinema!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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