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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will Desolation of Smaug begin with a Flashback?
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 17 2013, 12:18pm

Post #1 of 36 (1564 views)
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Will Desolation of Smaug begin with a Flashback? Can't Post

Some info if you haven't already noticed

FoTR : first scene. The Prologue of the One Ring.

TTT: first scene.Flashback. Gandalf v/s Balrog.

RoTK: first scene.Flashback. Gollum's past.

TH: first scene. AUJ : Erebor Flashback.


So it seems every movie starts either with a prologue or a flashback. I think PJ can't imagine to start a movie without a reference to the past. And I believe there's a high chance this will happen with TH:TDS too.


What are your theories on what PJ will put as the starting ( if ever ) scene in TH: DOS?

The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...


Arannir
Valinor

Apr 17 2013, 12:33pm

Post #2 of 36 (862 views)
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Still believe... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Gandalf/Thrain remains a strong contender.

A scene in which we see Thrain giving the key to Gandalf (what would be great imho would be if they are overheard by servants of Sauron, so that an explanation is offered how Azog and his orcs found Thorin & Company in the wilderness when they did, as I proposed in another thread). Anyway, after that a cut to Thorin playing with the key in his hand or something similar.

Other possibilities for a flashback (though I highly doubt they would either one of them - but I think it could work):
  • Thrain's backstory, especially after the Azu Battle, including his ring (although I am still not sure whether the Dwarven rings should play a role in TH)
  • a flashback on the history of Sauron (however, this would work better during a WC scene, told by Galadriel... and would bring up repetitive issues with the Last Alliance and Silmarillion copyright.... plus, probably only really interesting for lore fans)



BilboBagshot187
Rivendell


Apr 17 2013, 12:36pm

Post #3 of 36 (724 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Desolation of Smaug may well begin with a flashback to Gandalf in Dol Goldur obtaining the key from Thrain, although the problem with this is it may confuse people and perhaps may be better suited at Beorns house with Gandalf narrating.
It could also be the scene with Gandalf in the high fells that PJ showed in the DOS footage. I think either of those scenes will set a nice sinister tone that things are going to be a bit more serious with this film (higher stakes, Necromancer ect.)

'Everywhere I lie theres a dirty great root sticking into my back!'


Loresilme
Valinor


Apr 17 2013, 2:22pm

Post #4 of 36 (622 views)
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I sure hope so - at the beginning is the best place for them [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO, putting backstory or exposition at the beginning of a film, is *so* much better than interrupting the flow of a film partway through to flashback or insert exposition. Ugh, that always takes me right out of a movie. I really like the prologues and flashbacks in all the LOTR/TH films so far, so I'm hoping they continue it. Maybe the Thrain/Gandalf scene, but who knows, it could be something else entirely!


dik-dik
Lorien


Apr 17 2013, 2:24pm

Post #5 of 36 (620 views)
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Re: flashback [In reply to] Can't Post

I loved the fact that the Middle-earth movies start with flashbacks. My bet for DoS would be on either the company resting at Carrock and perhaps dreaming/reminiscing about the Frying Pan incident, or on Erebor as that's where the last movie ended, and also the most important place for the trilogy (IMO). Not to mention the residence of the trilogy's main villain. It would feel strange to me to begin with Dol Guldur, which, although closely connected with the main plot, is a subplot featuring just one of the main 15 characters. I feel the audience need to connect more with Bilbo and the Dwarves, and presenting Gandalf at Dol Guldur at the very opening would establish the Necromancer story arc as one of equal importance as that of the company, which I wouldn't be happy about. I'd dislike a High Fells prologue, because that one would be invented from scratch, whereas I'd love to see something from Tolkien's books at the movie's opening; especially knowing I'll be subjected to Tauriel later on.
All in all, I'm hoping to see Bilbo & co. in the prologue, or at least Smaug, instead of added material. A return to the Carrock would also provide some sort of relaxed atmosphere which I think is appropriate for an intro, as opposed to the all-dark Dol Guldur stuff.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


(This post was edited by dik-dik on Apr 17 2013, 2:28pm)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 17 2013, 3:54pm

Post #6 of 36 (558 views)
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This might by the opportunity to not do a prologue [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ's job is to surprise the audience, if you get them too comfortable to the story format they could become bored or harder to surprise. So if PJ is planning to break the continuity, this would be the place to do it, when everyone is expecting a prologue.

But the format has kind-of become Lord of the Ring's answer to the flying Star Wars text. So I'd say it's about 90% likely we'll see a prologue, but it's not a certainty, because he may wish to surprise us.


Arannir
Valinor

Apr 17 2013, 3:59pm

Post #7 of 36 (526 views)
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However... [In reply to] Can't Post

Dol Guldur and the Thrain scene is one of the few possibilities in which both storylines can be addressed ad therefore remind the audience of all important things. Even though only Gandalf is present there from the Company, people will probably remember the key and therefore make the connection to Thorin and Bilbo, while Dol Guldur, as the setting, reminds of the White Council storyline (and offers potential for some explanation as well).


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2013, 4:08pm

Post #8 of 36 (503 views)
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Sort of what I was thinking.. [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be a good all-around set-up for the rest of the film.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2013, 4:26pm

Post #9 of 36 (502 views)
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Yes, it has Gandalf and a Dwarf! [In reply to] Can't Post

...and the key, of course, which makes an excellent link to the story at hand whilst filling in another missing piece of the puzzle from AUJ.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort




Avatar: Elwing by art-nouveau-club on DeviantArt


nhui06
Rivendell

Apr 17 2013, 4:28pm

Post #10 of 36 (553 views)
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Probably, yes.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think they will begin with the story of Thrain and Gandalf, since Thrain will be introduced in this film.

I think they will show Thrain wearing a ring, but it will only be a nod to the audience who knows about them. I don't think it will be part of the story since The Hobbit is not about the rings (PJ probably only wants to focus on Bilbo's ring, plus this movie is suppose to be before the prologue of FOTR, so I do not believe PJ wants to dive too much into that material).

Im very curious about the location of where Thrain and Gandalf meet. If Gandalf meets Thrain in the 'abandoned Dol Guldur', then that explains why Gandalf did not think much of the fortress (assumed Thrain got lost there). But then it does not explain how Thrain got captured and assumed tortures for information in Dol Guldur (assuming that is how Azog got his information and noticed Thrain's fear).

More likely, Gandalf meets Thrain in Moria, where Thrain, driven mad, decided to enter the halls after the battle. Gandalf (for whatever reason) was also there, and that was where the exchange happened. This explains how Gandalf knew his way around Moria and of the Balrog (in FOTR).


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2013, 4:38pm

Post #11 of 36 (519 views)
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I thought they might go with the finding Thrain in Moria idea, initially... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think they will begin with the story of Thrain and Gandalf, since Thrain will be introduced in this film.

I think they will show Thrain wearing a ring, but it will only be a nod to the audience who knows about them. I don't think it will be part of the story since The Hobbit is not about the rings (PJ probably only wants to focus on Bilbo's ring, plus this movie is suppose to be before the prologue of FOTR, so I do not believe PJ wants to dive too much into that material).

Im very curious about the location of where Thrain and Gandalf meet. If Gandalf meets Thrain in the 'abandoned Dol Guldur', then that explains why Gandalf did not think much of the fortress (assumed Thrain got lost there). But then it does not explain how Thrain got captured and assumed tortures for information in Dol Guldur (assuming that is how Azog got his information and noticed Thrain's fear).

More likely, Gandalf meets Thrain in Moria, where Thrain, driven mad, decided to enter the halls after the battle. Gandalf (for whatever reason) was also there, and that was where the exchange happened. This explains how Gandalf knew his way around Moria and of the Balrog (in FOTR).







But the original teaser clip where we saw what looks like Thrain fighting with Gandalf is pretty definitely Dol Guldur - and Gandalf is fighting with his staff, not Glamdring...so either Thrain has already disarmed Gandalf of the sword, or it is a flashback scene to when he originally found him and got the key. (The other clips in the same teaser of Gandalf in DG clearly show him holding Glamdring, so must be of a second visit actually taking place during DoS.)


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort




Avatar: Elwing by art-nouveau-club on DeviantArt


Elenorflower
Gondor


Apr 17 2013, 4:41pm

Post #12 of 36 (506 views)
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probably more of Dale and Erebor [In reply to] Can't Post

or Necromancer stuff.
but what I would like and what we get will be miles apart. I would like to see Aragorn and Gandalf in Bree, yes I know I know Aragorn was 10 years old and he shouldnt be in the film, but if he is to make a cameo I would like it as a flashback, maybe Aragorn and the Dunedain are worried about tales of Dol Guldur, something nasty is stirring in Mirkwood, Gandalf shows Aragorn the key and the map, and tells Aragorn about the proposed journey to the Lonely Mountain, Aragorn says he will send out scouts to check things out. its not going to happen but i wouldnt mind it


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Apr 17 2013, 4:50pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 17 2013, 5:54pm

Post #13 of 36 (438 views)
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not so sure that will happen [In reply to] Can't Post

although i wouldn't mind seeing a scene of Gandalf conversing with someone near the end of TABA wearing similar clothes as Strider but never seeing his face, and maybe just hearing Viggo's voice saying something about keeping an eye on the shire. This does a couple things one brings back Aragorn/ Strider just briefly and secondly doesn't show his face so there is still that mystery when we see him in FOTR. So it really spoils nothing... But like you said it probably would never happen.Wink


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 17 2013, 7:11pm

Post #14 of 36 (437 views)
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Maybe not Aragorn, but I would love to see Bree in these films [In reply to] Can't Post

If only to see it in the sun, rather than the rain!

The company must've stayed at Bree on their journey, they go right past it! Also, Gandalf and Thorin met in The Prancing Pony to discuss the situation before visiting Bilbo, so it does play a part in the books.

I'm hoping that "There is an inn a merry old inn" will be sung in The Prancing Pony on the Extended version of AUJ **fingers crossed**


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 17 2013, 8:17pm

Post #15 of 36 (401 views)
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Would love, love, love to see Bree [In reply to] Can't Post

Either with the Company staying there, or a flashback to Thorin and Gandalf's first meeting. It would make a brilliant flashback, and would explain why Gandalf is in Hobbiton in the first place.

It also ties everything together nicely - Thorin wants his homeland back, Gandalf wants the dragon removed.


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Apr 17 2013, 9:04pm

Post #16 of 36 (397 views)
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Rrrradagast the Brown.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that the film may start with a flashback showing what happened to Radagast after he was chased by the Wargs: you will need to know how he escaped and where he went-he can't just randomly appear at the tomb with Gandalf, as Gandalf had to tell him to meet there.

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


cats16
Tol Eressea

Apr 17 2013, 9:37pm

Post #17 of 36 (347 views)
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Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo even mentions it during the Good Morning scene. "No one west of Bree" or something along those lines. So it's already been mentioned, and I totally agree that seeing it would be awesome!


Elenorflower
Gondor


Apr 17 2013, 9:46pm

Post #18 of 36 (356 views)
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cool! so we are all agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Bree it is, and in sunlight please. Sly If you are listening PJ,


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 17 2013, 9:53pm

Post #19 of 36 (346 views)
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NOPE [In reply to] Can't Post

he's not SlySlySly


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 17 2013, 9:59pm

Post #20 of 36 (354 views)
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I like Gandalf / Thrain if the key is a major focus [In reply to] Can't Post

because this sets up the arrival at the doorstep and struggle with Dol Guldur as major foci.

The one drawback I see is that I feel there are many good contenders for the right flashback to choose and this particular flashback would fit easily within the rest of the film as part of a White Council meeting. Some other options wouldn't be as easy to fit into the movie elsewhere leaving a prologue as the only option.


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 17 2013, 10:00pm

Post #21 of 36 (345 views)
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I agree in most cases. [In reply to] Can't Post

But if the White Council is meeting to discuss things, then it would naturally fit to have one item of discussion be accounts of previous dealings with the Necromancer - including the matter of the key and Thrain.


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 17 2013, 10:06pm

Post #22 of 36 (344 views)
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I also love the flashback-beginnings. [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the brain-storming here! There really are a great number of options and points to consider.

I agree that the flashback sets the tone and I also think it sets the audience expectations and focuses their attention, shaping their perception of all the rest that is to come. I really like how this device was used in LotR.

I had originally thought to have a prologue / flashback related to Dale but that might be better for film3, actually. The elements that I feel are a focus for film2 are the dwarven/elven conflict and history as well as Dol Guldur with the dragon and Dale / Laketown possibly being more important in film3 and its prologue.

I'd say there should be something with elves (Mirkwood specifically). But I still have to think about what that could be. Otherwise Dol Guldur is probably the second most important plotline in film2 so Thrain and Dol Guldur doesn't sound like a terrible idea by any means. But this really does bring Dol Guldur into the foreground leaving Thorin's company as the background / side-quest inadvertently. That may not be a good thing.


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 17 2013, 10:07pm

Post #23 of 36 (337 views)
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It could be a good thing if Thrain and the key are emphasized rather than Dol Guldur itself. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


The Mitch King
Rohan


Apr 17 2013, 11:12pm

Post #24 of 36 (346 views)
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Necromancer [In reply to] Can't Post

How about we get to see the Necromancer doing some shady business in the High Fells and seeing all the Nazgul busting out. Could be a pretty cool scene I think and it would foreshadow the DG battle (only if DG stuff is in DOS though).


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 1:52am

Post #25 of 36 (332 views)
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it will be one of the these two scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

Either the High Fells, or Gandalf investigating Dol-Duldur and finding Thrain.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

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