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boldog
Rohan
Apr 15 2013, 9:26am
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climax of the desolation of smaug?
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i have been thinking recently as to what the climax of the next film might be. we know in AUJ it was the attack of azogs wargs.
obviously it has to be an action scene of some sort and in my opinion i have three main possiblities.
1. the attack on laketown by smaug, eventually leading to his death. (yes smaug will die in DOS)
2. the attack on dol guldur. whether it is an infiltration by the white council or a siege led by the council...
3. a combination of both events which are shown simultaneously, kind of like the siege of minas tirith and the lair of shelob in lotr....
what are your thoughts?
"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"
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Arannir
Valinor
Apr 15 2013, 9:36am
Post #2 of 57
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I think it will be a combination...
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... of Smaug's conversation with Bilbo and him leaving Erebor and burning the mountainside in the North and the White Council skirmish in Dol Guldur in the South.
Yes, my hopes are that Smaug will not die in DoS. ;)
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Veridandir
Rivendell
Apr 15 2013, 9:38am
Post #3 of 57
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Something like TT, when gandalf makes the "the battle for Middle Earth is about to begin.."
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The battle in Laketown is over, Smaug is dead, but they figure out WAR is on the way, armies are marching, the treasure and the company isn't safe. Perfect set up for the third film imo.
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Valandil ed Imladris
Lorien
Apr 15 2013, 2:37pm
Post #4 of 57
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We get Dol Guldur as our action climax and the film ends with Bilbo and Smaug talking and the dwarves captured inside the Lonely Mountain.
For our last middle-earth film Smaug gets to open it with his attack on Lake-town. A huge action sequence at the beginning would be quite interesting and you'd have Smaug's death and the BOFA in one film, the last film ..
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Flame of Udun
Rivendell
Apr 15 2013, 4:01pm
Post #5 of 57
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too much epicness in a single film 
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand. What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.''
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nhui06
Rivendell
Apr 15 2013, 4:10pm
Post #6 of 57
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I think Smaug's defeat is appropriate for DOS. The battle of Dol Guldur is more of a set up for LOTR, so it belongs in the last film to serve as a bridge. We know there has to be a proper conclusion to DOS, with a cliffhanger to take us to the last film, and you nailed it with the threat of war between the people of Laketown, Elves, and the Dwarves, who just claimed back their homeland.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 15 2013, 4:27pm
Post #7 of 57
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Given that the title will fuel audience expectations...
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Smaug should perish in the climax of DoS, although it doesn't have to be that way. The logical alternative would be to end the film with the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur (possibly leaving Bilbo and the dwarves trapped within the Mountain at the end of the film).
Regardless, I really think that the attack on the Necromancer belongs somewhere in the second film. Tolkien places it at about the same time as the company's escape from the Wood-elves and its arrival at Esgaroth. I can see Jackson playing with the timeline, but moving it so that it follows the death of Smaug might be going a bit too far. On the other hand, it is reasonable to assume that there is some kind of follow-up after the Council takes Dol Guldur before Gandalf is free to head North.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell
Apr 15 2013, 4:39pm
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IMHO, Smaug should never be killed in DOS.
What will be left for TABA then? Only the assault on Dol Guldur (let's say at the most 30 minutes), BOFA (30 minutes. I love war scenes but too much gets me tired), and a bit of Thorin angst (again 30 minutes). And considering a few extra bits - 30 minutes.
So overall it adds up to a 2 hour movie. And I believe PJ would stick with his plan of filming 3 hour movies.
So in short there's risk of TABA feeling a bit padded.
Much like Valandil said:
After destroying the mountain side Smaug goes towards Lake-Town. And the White Council finalise their actions.
And the perfect ending I think should be Bilbo finding the Arkenstone.
The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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tarasaurus
Rohan
Apr 15 2013, 4:47pm
Post #9 of 57
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and want Smaug to die in DOS - AUJ already ended with a snippet of Smaug, so I don't think DOS will end with Smaug alive again and going to attack Laketown. I think Dol Guldur would work better at the end of DOS maybe...and TABA would be Bo5A for the big guns, and however they're going to bridge TH to LOTR.
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julia0925
The Shire
Apr 15 2013, 4:58pm
Post #10 of 57
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In the book the Desolation of Smaug refers to the state of the lands around the Lonely Mountain - a devastated wasteland. It doesn't necessarily have to mean the death of Smaug. I think leaving only the BoFA for the last movie would make it seem a bit thin. Of course, we do then have to get Bilbo and Gandalf back across the Misty Mountains in time to save his silver spoons from Lobelia, so maybe it would be enough. My hope is that Smaug gets to be great and terrible at the end of the second movie, then dramatically destroyed at the beginning of the third.
-----
Lotr: You know it's been a bad day when even the elf is smudged.
TH: when the going gets tough, the tough call the eagles.
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell
Apr 15 2013, 5:04pm
Post #11 of 57
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That's what my point is.
With Smaug dead, there's simply not much story left to cover an entire film.
The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 15 2013, 5:19pm
Post #12 of 57
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PJ is expanding on the politics of Lake-town
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That's what my point is.
With Smaug dead, there's simply not much story left to cover an entire film.
It looks to me like DoS might be too dense to get much of Lake-town politics into it. He might be doing what Tolkien avoided and putting an actual scism between Bard and the Master of Esgaroth into the narrative. If so, this should come to a head with the attack of Smaug and its aftermath. We will also need to see Thranduil reach the decision to march on Erebor and we will need to see the Goblins/Orcs gather for their own assault(s) on the Mountain. Similarly, the movie should show Dain learning of Thorin's plight and preparing his force to march to Lonely Mountain.
Another question is: will we rejoin Gandalf at some point after the attack on Dol Guldur, but before Bllbo discovers him in the camp of the army of the Men and Elves?
Finally, we do have some events to cover after the climax of the BoFA. Bilbo and Gandalf's return journey; the auction of Bag End; and Gandalf and Balin's visit to Bilbo several years later.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 15 2013, 5:21pm)
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell
Apr 15 2013, 5:29pm
Post #13 of 57
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I don't want PJ to make up more things. He really should leave the politics of Lake-Town as it is. PJ is at his best when he is most faithful to Tolkien and he messes all things when they try to make things up.
And why do I have the feeling that PJ will let all of the remaining dwarves visit Bag-End at the end of TABA.
The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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FrodoEyes
Rivendell
Apr 15 2013, 6:13pm
Post #14 of 57
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...why they would kill off their main villain in film 2. They would have to reveal him and kill him off in one movie.
Makes more sense to have him leave the mountain in a rage and have the last shot of him flying towards Laketown.
Whilst wrapping up the Dol Guldur stuff so Gandalf then has time to get to Erebor in time for the battle.
'I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.'
'So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.'
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Bauglir100
Bree
Apr 15 2013, 6:17pm
Post #15 of 57
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My idea as to how it might end:
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After his meeting with Bilbo, Smaug goes on his rampage, and flies off towards the Long Lake. Afterwards, it focuses on Thorin and Company wandering through the abandoned halls and chambers of Erebor, with Bilbo discovering the Arkenstone along the way, until they eventually exit through the main gate. This could maybe be interspersed with the White Council's attack on Dol Guldur. Once the Company finally comes back outside, they see no sign of Smaug, but there are clouds of dark smoke in the distance and flocks of crows gathering in all directions, indicating that something horrifying and violent recently occurred and setting up a reasonable cliffhanger to be resolved later on in the third movie.
And then "There and Back Again" could begin with Smaug attacking Lake-Town, before being killed by Bard. And then the events of "The Gathering of the Clouds", "A Thief in the Night", "The Clouds Burst", "Homeward Bound", and "The Last Stage" can be the focus of the remainder of the third movie's plot, with maybe some closure to both the White Council subplot and the framing device towards the ending.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 15 2013, 7:22pm
Post #16 of 57
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Well, I have seen rumors of Bard's relationship with the Master of Lake-town being very different than it is in the book; those rumors are getting some confirmation with news of Bard being portrayed as a more 'Robin Hood-like' character. I agree with you that this risks becoming needless melodrama, but the fact is that Bard needs a better introduction on film than he receives in the book. I personally feel that it could be done far more simply, with Bard becoming the guardsman who questions the company at the bridge and escorts them to the Master--only to be made responsible for their behavior during their stay in Esgaroth. However, it sounds as though Jackson is going to add complications that may grate on book-purists (among others).
Truthfully, the Demise of Smaug could go either way, used as the climax of DoS or placed at the beginning of TaBA. In either case, I think that DoS should end with the company in the dark tunnel, with the Secret Door smashed behind them and the possibility of a returning dragon ahead. The middle film is already pretty dense. Save the exploration of the Mountain's interior for TaBA.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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IdrilofGondolin
Rohan
Apr 16 2013, 1:01am
Post #17 of 57
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in TH and needs to be in both DOS and TABA. If people know anything about TH it's that it has a dragon. If Smaug dies in DOS will anyone but fans want to see TABA?
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Apr 16 2013, 3:10am
Post #18 of 57
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inconcievable that Smaug dies in DoS. Not only because people will think the story's over once the dragon dies, and if that happens in DoS, they'll lose interest in the rest of the story. Smaug's death plays an important part in how the BoFA comes to be, and if he dies in the second film, all that will have to be re-explained in TaBA. Whereas if he dies in the third film, that transitions us very smoothly into the beginnings of the BoFA.
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Apr 16 2013, 5:18am)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Apr 16 2013, 6:41am
Post #19 of 57
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They have to hold Smaug's death over to TABA to maintain interest. To me, the only sequence with options is climax to DG - for balance, and chronological reasons it would probably be best as a climax to DoS but I could see PJ wanting all the threads to culminate in TABA for one big pay off....
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
Avatar: Elwing by art-nouveau-club on DeviantArt
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 16 2013, 7:28am
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but not if Smaug comes back via the Necromancer
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the Necromancer flees Dol-Guldur....the Necromancer possesses dead Smaug...Smaug is now back in TABA. The eagles battle Smaug, the battle is lost. Smaug "possessed by the Necromancer" flies to Mordor and breathes his spirit via a ball of fire onto the top of Barad-dur thus creating the eyeball of fire seen in LOTR's, Smaug's lifeless body falls out of the sky once more.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Apr 16 2013, 7:29am)
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell
Apr 16 2013, 9:40am
Post #21 of 57
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The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell
Apr 16 2013, 9:44am
Post #22 of 57
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Smaug's presence confirmed for TABA?
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This interview with RA from IGN: http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/04/02/ho ... talk-smaug
He says that he thinks this year they ( he) will be shooting some scenes with the dragon.
We know they are due to return in the summer for two or three months to shoot stuff for the 3rd film, and that the second film is done already was confirmed a good while ago already. We also know they will be filming Battle of Five Armies and that there will be some more scenes with Beorn, since Jackson liked the actor portraying him so much.
So, perhaps he indirectly confirmed that Smaug would be there in TABA?
The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Apr 16 2013, 10:53am
Post #23 of 57
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They will most certainly be filming
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some pick-ups for DoS as well. I can't imagine them not.
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell
Apr 16 2013, 12:47pm
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DOS is already in post-production.
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It will be the rarest of cases if they do film.
The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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DanielLB
Immortal
Apr 16 2013, 12:51pm
Post #25 of 57
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There will almost definitely be pick-ups for DOS.
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Around 95% of the footage filmed was before the decision to split the two films into a trilogy. Not only are pick-ups required because of this decision, but they are also used to refine each film's edit.
Pick-ups for the LOTR films occured in 2001, 2002 and 2003 for each of the three films. ROTK pick-ups finished in July 2003.
The exact same thing is happening here.
While the majority of the filming this summer is exclusively for TABA and the BO5A, there are still re-shoots that are required. Since all of the main cast are down there for the battle scenes, they have huge oppurtunity to refine some of the scenes.
The Carrock scene was filmed within a couple of months of AUJ being released, and Azog just weeks. It's never too late to change a film.
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 16 2013, 12:55pm)
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