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Cirashala
Valinor
Apr 15 2013, 4:38am
Post #1 of 11
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Kili and background dialogue
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So, after a few people mentioning missing background dialogue and discovering it using subtitles, I thought I would start watching AUJ with subtitles (only made it as far as Radagast in Rhosgobel so far before my two tiny "terrors"  caused me to have to prolong it until this evening), and I noticed a very interesting tidbit and character arc 
When the dwarves are discussing Bilbo's merits (or lack thereof  ) as a burglar, just after Dwalin finishes his line about how the wild is no place for gentlefolk who can neither fight nor fend for themselves, Kili happens to come to Bilbo's defense!
It's hard to hear because of the general commotion, as well as you can't actually SEE Kili say it so you have to watch the subtitles where it puts the name of the character who speaks in front if they are offscreen. But while they are arguing (before Gandalf goes all menacing wizard on them), Kili speaks up and says,
"He's just fine."
So, Kili goes to Bilbo's defense as the other dwarves are basically muttering and seemingly agreeing with Dwalin! Apparently Kili's little analysis of their "burglar" at the front door (when he looks him over as he introduces himself) determined that he found him worthy of title as burglar 
And later, when the bets are being distributed, it wasn't Fili as I had thought (based on the voice sounding like him) but rather Kili who bet that Bilbo would show up. I also found it interesting to note that ONLY Kili, Gandalf, and the DEAF Oin bet that Bilbo would show up! Gandalf knew he would being the one who picked him in the first place, and Oin apparently thought he was an "expert" at the table (kudos for deaf dwarves!). So besides that, Kili is the only one who not only supported Bilbo at the meeting, but actually BET that he would come!
I also began to think about that "He's just fine." line. I have heard rumors about Thorin debating sending the boys home in Laketown in DOS, and I was wondering if Kili defended Bilbo because he didn't seem like much at first sight. Perhaps Kili felt deep down that he too was inadequate for the task in his own eyes, possibly indicating the desire to "prove" himself to his uncle. And I noticed that Kili is also more than willing to go to Bilbo's defense and completely disregard his own safety with the Trolls, indicating protectiveness (and quite possibly stupidity, er, inexperience  )
I just like this character arc that has been expanded in my eyes by simply turning on the subtitles (I normally don't use them as they drive me nuts-my eyes tend to be drawn to the words and thus it detracts from what is physically going on).
Also, a quick unrelated side note- people have expressed dissatisfaction at character familial relationships not being clarified, but the subtitles actually help with that. We know that Balin addresses Dwalin as brother as an actual line (not background dialogue), so that bond is indicated. However, when Fili is distributing ale while walking on the table asking who wants an ale, Kili says, "Over here brother." So that bond is addressed as well. So that's two out of four brother bonds, one first cousin bond, and one uncle/nephew bond, although given the directions and subsequent clarifications Thorin gives the boys (ie Look after the ponies [direction] make sure you stay with them [clarification]) that is suggested.
One can start really appreciating all the work these wonderful actors did in the background! (not just body language but verbal as well apparently!) There is so much more characterization to be found within subtitles.
Subtitles can be so much fun!
Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm
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Nunilo
Bree
Apr 15 2013, 10:08am
Post #2 of 11
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Thank you for sharing this! I can't wait to watch the DVD with subtitles when I get my hands on it. I'm going to attempt to listen very hard for this, but it may be difficult to catch Kili's voice.
One can start really appreciating all the work these wonderful actors did in the background! (not just body language but verbal as well apparently!) There is so much more characterization to be found within subtitles.
I agree with you here! I love reading about all the little observations people have made. Even if I don't pick them up myself in a viewing, I feel all the tiny things the actors do, or the small split second details in the background, really add to the overall feel of the movie, and make it more immersive. It's what makes the characters all the more real, and part of what keeps bringing me back to rewatch the movie.
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Loresilme
Valinor
Apr 15 2013, 9:36pm
Post #3 of 11
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I found the same - watching it on a smaller screen, my eyes and my attention was drawn much more to the interaction between the dwarves. The ensemble relationship, the physical acting, facial expressions, etc., -- there really, really is a lot going on there. And the fact that there *are* so many of them - makes watching it each time a different and still interesting experience, because it's fun to focus on and watch a different character during each of the scenes.
I typically don't watch with subtitles either, because I get very distracted by them. But thank you for sharing this background dialogue of Kili's - I think that's a marvelous catch and does shed some light on how they have filled in details on Kili's character. I'm going to watch it next with subtitles and look for those lines. Thanks!!
(This post was edited by Loresilme on Apr 15 2013, 9:40pm)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Apr 15 2013, 10:58pm
Post #4 of 11
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I've said all along that Kili liked Bilbo and was supportive(and somehwat protective) of him. :) It was actually one of his "defining traits" in the movie for me. Young and inexperienced sure but the arc he had with Bilbo also showed his open mindedness and even nobility. There are many reasons to like Kili besides his pretty face. Anyway it's one of the things I hope to see more of in the next film(and the little scene we saw in the sneak preview kind of returns the favor, with Bilbo being concerned about Kili)
But I actually didn't know about that "That's fine" line, that's cool. I knew Kili was the one who bet on him, because of where the money bag was thrown. In the scene before where you can see their relative placement on the road riding the ponies, Fili was on the right side, Kili was on the left and the bag went to the left when thrown(if you were facing them on the road) .
Really need to get on reading those subtitles.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Apr 15 2013, 11:01pm)
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Kimtc
Rohan
Apr 16 2013, 12:44am
Post #5 of 11
(236 views)
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Thanks for this! I need to get on this.
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There are a number of films where I have found subtitles invaluable--Master and Commander, Gosford Park, anything where there is a lot of cross talk or discussion of topics that I don't understand. Does anyone know how they get the dialogue for them? Do they get a script, or does someone actually sit there and figure it out? And how do they do it where it is something not in the script (like, say, subtitling an entire Will Ferrell film)?
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Kirly
Lorien
Apr 16 2013, 2:03am
Post #6 of 11
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I too saw/heard this for the first time this weekend
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And that's after probably 20 or 30 viewings!
Glad you posted this.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Roheryn
Tol Eressea
Apr 16 2013, 10:53pm
Post #7 of 11
(189 views)
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I noticed that line from Kili too
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once I turned the subtitles on! So many lines I'd missed before. (My new favourite insult: Oh, you great galumphing git!)
Great point about Kili being supportive of Bilbo from the beginning. I expect we'll see more made of this in DOS and TABA. Also, Kili seems to be Thorin's favourite nephew, and I bet something will be made of Kili feeling torn between his empathy with Bilbo and his loyalty to his uncle, likely after Thorin's meltdown. Can't wait to see how this plays out!
And you know when Fili and Kili are at the door in Bag End, and Kili quickly looks Bilbo over -- I always figured he's checking out Bilbo's hairy feet.
LOL at it being the deaf Dwarf who also bet that Bilbo would turn up -- I hadn't put 2 and 2 together! Of course Oin bet on Bilbo because he thought Bilbo had said he's an expert (did you notice the hilariously puzzled look Fili gives Oin when Oin says that line?) -- I had totally missed that point! Kudos to deaf Dwarves indeed.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Apr 16 2013, 11:44pm
Post #8 of 11
(168 views)
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Its stuff like that which shows just how much care they put into the characterizations. I hadn't even connected Oin's bet with his deafness. I ven remember thinking "I wonder why Oin bet for him? Well that's nice." without even connecting it to his earlier mishearing of Bilbo's expertise. :)
IMO any who thinks PJ, Fran or Phillippa don't truly care about what they are doing with these films is simply mistaken. Even a small moment like that takes a large amount of though, perhaps even more than the "big moments".
RE: Kili's loyalties. I do remember reading an interview with Turner where he mentions because of Bilbo Kili starts to see that there are other ways to deal with things, so I do think there will be some torn loyalties there.
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Kimtc
Rohan
Apr 17 2013, 12:20am
Post #9 of 11
(164 views)
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Other than yelling and hitting things with your axe....
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RE: Kili's loyalties. I do remember reading an interview with Turner where he mentions because of Bilbo Kili starts to see that there are other ways to deal with things, so I do think there will be some torn loyalties there.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Apr 17 2013, 1:49am
Post #10 of 11
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Hmmm...Kili doesn't have an axe :D
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But yeah, essentially I got the idea that from Bilbo he starts to appreciate that you could "use your words" to negotiate a situation. :)
Wish I could remember which interview I read/heard it in.
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ByThorinsBeard
Rohan
Apr 17 2013, 6:22pm
Post #11 of 11
(101 views)
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I must do this the next time I pop in the DVD. Glad to see some extra character development for Kili.
Thanks for posting.
"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you anywhere." - Albert Einstein.
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