The Uruk-hai, same scenario as above [as I would argue that it is not a given fact that Tolkien's Uruk-hai have mannish blood, so they can be well trained orcs. Uruk-hai means 'Orc-folk' according to Tolkien himself].

The Isengard Uruk-hai were almost certainly a result of a man/orc breeding program intitiated by Saruman, as were the "half-orcs" like the squint-eyed southerner the hobbits encounter in Bree.

This was only speculated on in the LOTR books, but in Morgoth's Ring Tolkien stated that it was clearly his intent. I'm not aware of him reversing course on that at some point (which he sometimes did), but who knows.

The name "Uruk-hai" was the name that the Isengard Uruk-hai gave to themselves, it was not necessarily a name that others would have used to describe them.

Treebeard likely would not have known of the term "Uruk-hai", and like you said, all orcs would likely look similar to Treebeard, so there's no reason to think he would differentiate, even between Uruk-hai and smaller orcs. Also, Treebeard refers to the "Isengarders" being able to withstand the sun much better than other orcs, which is what led him to speculate that Saruman cross-bred orcs and men. Why wouldn't "Isengarders" include Saruman's Uruk-hai? (for whom the previous chapter was even named).

Also, Tolkien uses both "men-orcs" AND "orc-men" in the very same sentence in Morgoth's Ring, which would imply that they are not quite treated as the same thing, even though they may have the same origins. Here is the quote - "There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

In my mind, it would not be a stretch to think that the "half-orcs" that Merry and Pippin noticed in Isengard were the "Orc-men", or more mannish-looking brothers, of the "Man-orcs", or Isengard Uruk-hai. If you notice, the "half-orcs" that Merry and Pippin saw were described as "sallow-skinned and squint-eyed", much the same way that the orcish-looking southerner in Bree was described, and he was obviously mannish-looking enough to serve as a spy in Bree.

The first instance of Uruks appearing was fairly late in the third-age, during a raid on Osgiliath about 500 or so years before the War of the Ring. So even IF Saruman's Uruk-hai are originally from Mordor, that still doesn't necessarily rule out the idea that Sauron might have bred the Uruks into existence. And since men are always described as being larger than elves and orcs, breeding orcs with evil men would certainly produce larger offspring on average than just breeding orcs.

Anyway, there's no 100% definitive answer either way, so you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Here is an interesting website that deals with this matter. Anyone else interested in this can make up their own minds after reading the evidence for or against the idea.

The question is, why should the reader [who meets both these spies and these goblin-faced half-orcs] include Saruman's Uruk-hai when we know it means Orc-folk and there are other beings who fit Treebeard's speculation perfectly?

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There's no reason to believe that certain words from the Black Speech would only be known to Isengard orcs if they had originally come from Mordor. It is mentioned in "The Uruk-Hai" that "Apparently the members of two or three quite different tribes were present, and they could not understand one another’s orc-speech." We know that there were the bow-legged Mordor orcs present, and these were Grishnakh's company. We know that there were smaller "goblins" from the north present. And then there was Ugluk and the "fighting Uruk-hai", or the "Isengarders". So apparently, even though the Isengard Uruk-hai knew how to say at least one phrase in the Black Speech, they still did not speak or understand it fluently.

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I think that Treebeard's description of "Isengarders" being better equipped to deal with sunlight would certainly describe the Uruk-hai. Here is a short little exchange between a Northerner "goblin" and Ugluk, taken from "The Uruk-Hai" -

‘Now straight on!’ shouted Uglúk. ‘West and a little north. Follow Lugdush.’

‘But what are we going to do at sunrise?’ said some of the Northerners.

‘Go on running,’ said Uglúk. ‘What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?’

‘But we can’t run in the sunlight.’

‘You’ll run with me behind you,’ said Uglúk. ‘Run! Or you’ll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What’s the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!’

This would seem to indicate that Ugluk and the rest of his Uruk-hai were more tolerant of the sun, and would fit the description of what Treebeard described.

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I do not believe the term "man-orc" is used at all, outside of Morgoth's Ring. It's usually either "half-orc", or "orc-men". In Unfinished Tales, at the Battle of the the Fords of Isen, Theodred's company is assailed by Dunlendings, orcs, Uruk-hai, AND "orc-men". Tolkien's description of the "orc-men" are that they were treacherous and vile, and these are the ones you've tagged the "spies". I'll concede that it is not impossible that some of the group you refer to as the "spies" served as soldiers, but why then was every type of Isengarder present at that battle EXCEPT for the "goblin-faced" variety, who, according to your argument, were separate from the spies? Unless they were, in fact, the "orc-men", and not the "man-orcs"... As for the spy in Bree, it is certainly possible that he just happened to look more mannish than some others of his kind, OR he was not half-orc, but only had some orcish blood (as was the rumor around Bree).

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Yep, it's all speculation, either way. But large orcs bred with large orcs likely would not create better resistance ot sunlight, as was shown by Ugluk and company. Then again, there is the matter of the Olog-hai trolls, who were resistant to sunlight, and I do find it hard to believe that men would be cross-bred with trolls as well, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility (we are talking about a fantasy world here). Whatever the case may be, it looks pretty clear to me that the Uruk-hai were more than simply a product of breeding large orcs with other large orcs. Doesn't prove that they were part-man, but it IS a good theory.

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Maybe I got a bit gung-ho in trying to argue my point, which I tend to do sometimes LOL. But I still stand by my argument. Your argument is certainly valid too, much more valid than I believed it was BEFORE we got into this debate. This has been an enlightening exchange.

There's no reason to believe that certain words from the Black Speech would only be known to Isengard orcs if they had originally come from Mordor. It is mentioned in "The Uruk-Hai" that "Apparently the members of two or three quite different tribes were present, and they could not understand one another’s orc-speech." We know that there were the bow-legged Mordor orcs present, and these were Grishnakh's company. We know that there were smaller "goblins" from the north present. And then there was Ugluk and the "fighting Uruk-hai", or the "Isengarders". So apparently, even though the Isengard Uruk-hai knew how to say at least one phrase in the Black Speech, they still did not speak or understand it fluently.

I think that Treebeard's description of "Isengarders" being better equipped to deal with sunlight would certainly describe the Uruk-hai.
Here is a short little exchange between a Northerner "goblin" and Ugluk, taken from "The Uruk-Hai" -

‘Now straight on!’ shouted Uglúk. ‘West and a little north. Follow Lugdush.’
‘But what are we going to do at sunrise?’ said some of the Northerners.
‘Go on running,’ said Uglúk. ‘What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?’
‘But we can’t run in the sunlight.’
‘You’ll run with me behind you,’ said Uglúk. ‘Run! Or you’ll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What’s the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!’


This would seem to indicate that Ugluk and the rest of his Uruk-hai were more tolerant of the sun, and would fit the description of what Treebeard described.

I do not believe the term "man-orc" is used at all, outside of Morgoth's Ring. It's usually either "half-orc", or "orc-men". In Unfinished Tales, at the Battle of the the Fords of Isen, Theodred's company is assailed by Dunlendings, orcs, Uruk-hai, AND "orc-men". Tolkien's description of the "orc-men" are that they were treacherous and vile, and these are the ones you've tagged the "spies".

I'll concede that it is not impossible that some of the group you refer to as the "spies" served as soldiers, but why then was every type of Isengarder present at that battle EXCEPT for the "goblin-faced" variety, who, according to your argument, were separate from the spies?

Yep, it's all speculation, either way. But large orcs bred with large orcs likely would not create better resistance ot sunlight, as was shown by Ugluk and company.

Then again, there is the matter of the Olog-hai trolls, who were resistant to sunlight, and I do find it hard to believe that men would be cross-bred with trolls as well, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility (we are talking about a fantasy world here). Whatever the case may be, it looks pretty clear to me that the Uruk-hai were more than simply a product of breeding large orcs with other large orcs. Doesn't prove that they were part-man, but it IS a good theory.

Maybe I got a bit gung-ho in trying to argue my point, which I tend to do sometimes LOL. But I still stand by my argument. Your argument is certainly valid too, much more valid than I believed it was BEFORE we got into this debate. This has been an enlightening exchange.

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No, it doesn't necessarily mean that "orc-speech" = "Black Speech", but I'm not sure why Tolkien even would have mentioned the language barriers at all if he intended the Isengard Uruks to be fluent speakers of the language of Mordor. To me it implies that they could not understand one another, so that's why they resorted to speaking Westron (and not the language of Mordor).

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There are any number of possibilities, but what is implied is that the Isengard Uruk-hai are less mindful of the sun, and then in the very next chapter, Treebeard mentions the Isengard orcs who are man-like and travel under the sun. Treebeard doesn't know anything for certain, you're correct. But, at least as I see it, a reader would likely assume that Treebeard just may be talking about
those same guys in the previous chapter, who were boasting about how they didn't care about traveling under the sun while another group moaned about it. It seems logical to connect the two.

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No, but obviously the "treacherous and vile" orc-men would not be as well-suited to battle as the "large and cunning" man-orcs (these are Tolkien's descriptions), so I am guessing that you believed the orc-men to be the spies, and the man-orcs to be Merry's "goblin-faced" Isengarders, since you basically boiled down all of the half-orcs into either mannish-looking spies, or goblin-faced soldiers.

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The attack that killed Theodred, outlined in Unfinished Tales in the chapter "The Battles of the Fords of Isen". There were plenty of mentions Dunlendings, smaller orcs, Uruk-hai, and orc-men being present at this battle. Now, taking into account Tolkien's differentiation between man-orcs and orc-men, we could likely assume that the orc-men present at the Battle of the Fords of Isen were the same "orc-men" that he made a point to describe as "treacherous and vile", instead of the "large and cunning" man-orcs, whom it seems you were hypothesizing were the "goblin-faced" group that Merry and Pippin saw. Based on all of this, I will submit that the "goblin-faced" half-orcs and the "treacherous and vile" orc-men described in Morgoth's Ring were one and the same, and that the Isengard Uruk-hai and the "large and cunning" man-orcs described in Morgoth's Ring were also one and the same.

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Sure, it could simply be training, but again, the implication is pretty strong that Ugluk and company are the same Isengarders that Treebeard describes as being sort of mannish. I'm sure you will disagree with me here, but I think I've made a strong-enough case.

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I would not go as far as me inching toward the idea, just that I can see how someone might side with your opinion on the matter. I am still 100% convinced I'm correct here

No, it doesn't necessarily mean that "orc-speech" = "Black Speech", but I'm not sure why Tolkien even would have mentioned the language barriers at all if he intended the Isengard Uruks to be fluent speakers of the language of Mordor. To me it implies that they could not understand one another, so that's why they resorted to speaking Westron (and not the language of Mordor).

(...) But, at least as I see it, a reader would likely assume that Treebeard just may be talking about those same guys in the previous chapter, who were boasting about how they didn't care about traveling under the sun while another group moaned about it. It seems logical to connect the two.

No, but obviously the "treacherous and vile" orc-men would not be as well-suited to battle as the "large and cunning" man-orcs (these are Tolkien's descriptions), so I am guessing that you believed the orc-men to be the spies, and the man-orcs to be Merry's "goblin-faced" Isengarders, since you basically boiled down all of the half-orcs into either mannish-looking spies, or goblin-faced soldiers.

Sure, it could simply be training, but again, the implication is pretty strong that Ugluk and company are the same Isengarders that Treebeard describes as being sort of mannish. I'm sure you will disagree with me here, but I think I've made a strong-enough case.