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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
More "stars" in The Hobbit? And where does the film break?
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FingonOfPittsburgh
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 1:36am

Post #1 of 26 (799 views)
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More "stars" in The Hobbit? And where does the film break? Can't Post

Given the success of the LOTR films, is it likely that more of the "big name stars" will be trying desperately to land parts in The Hobbit? The budget will certainly be there. I wonder if PJ will stick to the old method of casting virtual unknowns based on how well they look the part (which he got dead on perfect on nearly every count *cough*LIVTYLER*cough* last time). Of course the obvious stars will have to come back (Serkis and McKellen for sure).

One other thing I've been wondering - where do you suppose the first of the two films will break? Bilbo stumbling upon Gollum? That's my first guess without thinking too much about it just yet.


Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament... There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth, and more than that: Death: by the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste (or foretaste) of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man's heart desires.

--J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #43, to his son Michael


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 1:47am

Post #2 of 26 (432 views)
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The second film may be all-new material [In reply to] Can't Post

spanning the time between the end of The Hobbit and the beginning of LotR.


FingonOfPittsburgh
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 2:00am

Post #3 of 26 (406 views)
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Maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

It might. But I seriously doubt it. Sure, we know PJ has no problem taking (sometimes ridiculous) liberties with the source material. But I doubt he would essentially write his own book into the story.


Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament... There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth, and more than that: Death: by the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste (or foretaste) of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man's heart desires.

--J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #43, to his son Michael


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 2:07am

Post #4 of 26 (400 views)
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I'm not just making that up. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I'll have to search again for where I read it.


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 2:20am

Post #5 of 26 (371 views)
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Here's one place I saw it. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Jackson and his life/creative partner Walsh have always envisioned the big-screen adaptation of The Hobbit as two movies. The first would deal with the 80-year old novel. The second, imagined entirely by Jackson and Walsh, would link the conclusion of The Hobbit to the start of the first Lord of the Rings book, The Fellowship of the Rings."

http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/...its-back-to-mid.html


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 2:23am

Post #6 of 26 (346 views)
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Here's another place I saw it. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Jackson and Walsh envision the first film covering the events of The Hobbit and the second bridging the 80-year gap between that novel and the first Lord of the Rings book.

"It was that vision that led MGM, which holds the film rights to the book and is looking for new movie franchises, to insist that Jackson and Walsh make the films.

"'Once [they] played out their vision for The Hobbit as two movies ... MGM just took the position that we wanted to deal with Peter and it was not an option to do it with anybody else,' Mr Sloan said."

http://fathermckenzie.blogspot.com/...-2-hobbit-films.html


silneldor
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 2:28am

Post #7 of 26 (380 views)
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So, in my disappointment, it seems [In reply to] Can't Post

that elements of the Silmarillian, which would have given the Hobbit great depth will be omitted. Perhaps there will be glimpses? Any thoughts?

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez


May the grace of ManwŰ let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of ManwŰ S˙limo
By El~Cugu

From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'

Well! What do you know, it snowed.
Season's greetings with thoughts of Rivendell







Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 2:33am

Post #8 of 26 (357 views)
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They don't own the rights to The Sil. [In reply to] Can't Post

Nor Unfinished Tales, nor HoME, nor anything published after Tolkien's death. But they do have the right to invent material relating to The Hobbit and LotR.


FingonOfPittsburgh
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 2:36am

Post #9 of 26 (328 views)
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re [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah I remember hearing that too a while back. What I'm saying is I don't think they'd really do it.


Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament... There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth, and more than that: Death: by the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste (or foretaste) of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man's heart desires.

--J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #43, to his son Michael


silneldor
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 2:46am

Post #10 of 26 (350 views)
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What about [In reply to] Can't Post

historical things mentioned in the LOTR's say from the appendices. Could they be elaborated on or be entitled to 'story creation'?

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez


May the grace of ManwŰ let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of ManwŰ S˙limo
By El~Cugu

From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'

Well! What do you know, it snowed.
Season's greetings with thoughts of Rivendell







Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 2:47am

Post #11 of 26 (356 views)
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You're walking a fine line. [In reply to] Can't Post

As some have noted, even the design of the Ring of Barahir came from The Silmarillion, although the ring itself was mentioned in The Hobbit.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 3:13am

Post #12 of 26 (345 views)
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I just don't see 80 years in 3 hours making a good movie [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that the joy/hyperness/utter bliss has died down, I am a bit cynical about the second movie, this so-called "filler" movie.

I mean, the members of the Fellowship are all split up- the hobbits are the closest together (though most of the hobbits aren't even born until half of those years have already passed), Gimli is doing his own thing, Boromir is doing his own thing, Legolas is doing his own thing (unless you believe fan fiction), Aragorn (sometimes with Gandalf) is doing his own thing, and goodness knows that Gandalf is all over the place. And, well, 60 (or about 80, if you take movie-verse version of Bilbo's party and Frodo leaving right by one another) is quite a long time. I mean, for example, Aragorn goes from 10 to 87, learning about his heritage, going down to Rohan and Gondor, and hunting for Gollum. And some things in between, heheh.

The only way I see it working is if it were narrated (by like Gandalf or something) in like, some sort of Princess Bride type of way. Unless they completely disregarded the timeline (which would not work with their "60 years later" that they put in the Fellowship of the Ring). I guess they would have Gandalf telling the story or something to someone else... maybe an unidentified audience. I then see him jumping from scene to scene, covering the major events. But that doesn't work that well as a movie.

Another possible way of it working (I'm thinking in Hollywood terms) is having this second movie literally a sequel to the Hobbit by moving the events of Dol Guldur a little bit forward in time. The White Council met in 2941 (when Bilbo went off), but they met one last time in 2953. They moved against Dol Guldur in 2941 as well, but if you pushed the event 12 years later, you would be able to bring back many characters from LOTR- Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, a younger (but not as young as in Hobbit) Aragorn, Legolas, maybe Gimli. Knowing Hollywood, they would think of some way to throw in Bilbo once more, or Bard if he became popular. Goodness knows that they will probably try and make some money on Aragorn and Legolas, considering how popular Orlando Bloom and Viggo Mortensen are.

If they decided to disregard the timeline completely, they could move Dol Guldur even closer to LOTR and add in the Hobbits. No idea how without completely disregarding canon established in the FOTR film; the only hobbit I see working is Bilbo, since he was friends with Aragorn. They would merge Aragorn hunting Gollum and Dol Guldur together just to add another familiar character.

Hmm, still, the Dol Guldur idea isn't the worst idea, and plausible. Hollywood is certainly known for taking liberties, and messing with the timeline would not be the worst of them. I wouldn't even mind it, I suppose; it would just need to have a bloody decent script.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 3:16am

Post #13 of 26 (322 views)
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Not in "The Hobbit". [In reply to] Can't Post

The Ring of Barahir did not appear there. The first published work to mention it was LotR, and as you say, it is only described in the "Silmarillion" texts, though the LotR filmmakers used that without any reprisals that we know of. For more on this Ring, see this discussion.

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Radhruin
Rohan


Dec 19 2007, 3:16am

Post #14 of 26 (320 views)
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Good to see you FoP [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been a while. How've ya been?

Not sure where I stand yet on The Hobbit. I'm fairly indifferent as to director, leaning toward hoping that PJ has little to do with it, but not rabidly opposed to his involvement either. I can't imagine why big names wouldn't be interested though. I just hope they know that it's a children's story and not truly a LOTR prequel.

Please tell me your *coughing* wasn't indicating a negative reaction to Liv? I can't imagine it was. Cool

As far as I understand it, the second film is info from the appendices or something, plus who knows what extraneous information might seem relevant these days to the story. :) I don't think that the The Hobbit would be split in two.

"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."
~Chesterton

(This post was edited by Radhruin on Dec 19 2007, 3:18am)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 3:22am

Post #15 of 26 (324 views)
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As long as it doesn't come from Tolkien. [In reply to] Can't Post

The filmmakers have the right to elaborate on anything mentioned in the appendices, sure, but as they don't have the rights to the "Silmarillion" material, they'd essentially be forced to make up stuff that contradicts what Tolkien wrote.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 3:27am

Post #16 of 26 (340 views)
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Gollum appears in the fifth of nineteen chapters. [In reply to] Can't Post

However, the later chapters are shorter. A break at the book's halfway point would come at about Mirkwood, say either after Thorin & Co. leave Beorn, or after they escape the spiders.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 3:32am

Post #17 of 26 (318 views)
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Darkstone once pointed out... [In reply to] Can't Post

using citation of Tolkien's descriptions, how almost none of the actors cast by Jackson actually resembled their book versions, but darned if I can find that discussion. Probably on Movie, certainly sometime in the past two years.

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silneldor
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 4:21am

Post #18 of 26 (277 views)
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Hmmm, i see what you mean :[. \\ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez


May the grace of ManwŰ let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of ManwŰ S˙limo
By El~Cugu

From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'

Well! What do you know, it snowed.
Season's greetings with thoughts of Rivendell







Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 4:25am

Post #19 of 26 (263 views)
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Sorry, meant to say LotR./ [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Sunflower
Valinor

Dec 19 2007, 8:34am

Post #20 of 26 (248 views)
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Unless PJ is directing, [In reply to] Can't Post

he won't be casting anybody.

Did Mark Ordesky, as Executive Producer, make the casting decisions in LOTR? Or write the script?


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Dec 19 2007, 9:36am)


FingonOfPittsburgh
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 3:18pm

Post #21 of 26 (245 views)
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Let's assume.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's assume for the sake of this thread, that the second film will not be extra-canonical or anything of the "filler" type whatsoever. I would be willing to bet nearly everything that it will not be, and that both films will tell The Hobbit story. For this thread, let's assume I am correct (it has happened once or twice, historical evidence to the contrary on Torn notwithstanding Evil ).

So where do you posters think the logical break point is?

Like NEB, I originally thought the Spiders sequence was a good point. But that just doesn't seem dramatic enough, IMO. You can hardly use that as the stopping point for a two-year break. Viewers will certainly know that the group will escape when the second film starts. Picking up the second film at that point would be fairly hum-drum.

I think the first film has to end at a very thrilling, chilling point. I can just see the last few minutes of the film following Bilbo as he blindly stumbles down the tunnel, trying to figure out what that odd hissing sound and gutteral noises are. Finally, after what seems like endless fumbling in the dark and tripping over roots, rocks, etc., Bilbo looks up to see those two bulbous points of light as Smeagol blinks, his face right next to Bilbo's. We hear, "What issss it Precccioouusssss? *GOLLUM*" as the film ends.

I don't know. That just seems like the best way I can imagine it ending right now. What do the rest of you think?


Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament... There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth, and more than that: Death: by the divine paradox, that which ends life, and demands the surrender of all, and yet by the taste (or foretaste) of which alone can what you seek in your earthly relationships (love, faithfulness, joy) be maintained, or take on that complexion of reality, of eternal endurance, which every man's heart desires.

--J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #43, to his son Michael


S-J-Hawk
The Shire


Dec 19 2007, 4:19pm

Post #22 of 26 (196 views)
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Under your Assumption [In reply to] Can't Post

I would consider the end of "Barrels Out of Bond" to be a good break. It harkens to the movie end of FOTR. A resolution of sorts with mystery ahead.

edit to add - It also sort of marks the end of the "journey" portion of the story, Leaving the main "conflict" for the second film.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

-the Litany against Fear


(This post was edited by Altaira on Dec 19 2007, 7:58pm)


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Dec 19 2007, 5:27pm

Post #23 of 26 (186 views)
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The Break in the Hobbit movie . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd have to agree on the Barrel Ride as a possible break. They will want a climactic ending of some sort for Episode 1, and the escape (with some added fighting?) could qualify.
To be honest, after the escape from Goblin Town and rescue by the Eagles, there is no good point for a break. Not really. And that point is too early and leaves too much material for Episode 2 (Not that a similar situation stopped PJ in TTT / ROTK break).

Alternately, there is a lot of info out there indicating that the second film will be some sort of connection. I'm sure PJ and Fran have had plenty of time to work out the synopsis and treatment that was given the studio. He could use Gandalf as a connecting thread, covering Dol Guldur, Balin's foray into Moria and any other happenings that can be gleaned from the Appendixes and the Trilogy itself, giving us a running story line from the Hobbit to the Trilogy.
Personally, i'd prefer to use most of the two movies to cover the Hobbit itself. A lot of material was left out of the Trilogy, and I'd like to see the Hobbit done in as complete a manner as possible.

Hmmm. Now that I've thought about it a bit, I think it's time for me to delve into the Appendixes and see what ol' PJ has in mind . . .

"I am Gandalf, and Galdalf means me!"

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Dec 19 2007, 6:56pm

Post #24 of 26 (168 views)
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Ooooh, nice. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure there's enough story before then to fill out a movie, but that would be a wicked (and very mean!) point to break the movie.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronĺs master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 7:50pm

Post #25 of 26 (151 views)
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That's very early in the story. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Dec. 17-23 for "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony".

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