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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
azog thoughts

Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 10 2013, 9:17pm

Post #1 of 25 (833 views)
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azog thoughts Can't Post

 
sorry if this has been mused upon before, but i was just thinking that the azog we have seen could have been raised from the dead by the necromancer. perhaps that is why the necromancer's theme plays when thorin makes his "burning charge."

also, if he died and was brought back, it's possible that thorin did kill him (as thorin thought), or even that dain (at a later date) killed him, and he was brought back ('tho i think this far less likely).

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


deskp
Lorien


Apr 10 2013, 9:44pm

Post #2 of 25 (437 views)
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no [In reply to] Can't Post

We never saw azog die, so theres no need to explain why hes alive.


vexx801
Rivendell


Apr 10 2013, 10:01pm

Post #3 of 25 (406 views)
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Yes, however [In reply to] Can't Post

It is also entirely possible that Azog did indeed die of his wounds only to be brought back by the Necromancer. The film made a point of him being "one who can summon the dead." This would also be a good reason for Bolg's alliance with Sauron as well as why he works as the torturer at Dol Guldur - because Sauron brought Azog back.

There's more to this theory that folks have written about, but I don't think it should be discounted so easily.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 10 2013, 10:26pm

Post #4 of 25 (372 views)
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Further musings [In reply to] Can't Post

are always welcome. Smile

I think it's a possibility, though bringing beings back from the dead doesn't appear to be what Tolkien envisioned the Necromancer doing. But it seems that's what a Necromancer may do in the movie. I do feel like we have to see some sort of explanation for why he's called a Necromancer, and bringing Azog (or possibly Bolg -- isn't that Bolg whom Dwalin so enthusiastically double-axes in the Battle of Azanulbizar?) back to life would certainly show us an explanation.

A couple of points in support of Azog having been resurrected: it appears that the Elvish swords are not glowing blue (I know we've discussed this, and some do think the swords glow then -- I think it's just reflected moonlight) during the final showdown with Azog at the end (we know that Sting stops glowing blue when the goblin for which it's glowing dies -- I think there must be a reason this point was made so clearly); and the Goblin King says to Thorin, after Thorin insists Azog is dead, "So you think his defiling days are done, do you?" Note the Goblin King does NOT contradict Thorin to say Azog is alive.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 10:47pm

Post #5 of 25 (329 views)
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It's surely a possibility [In reply to] Can't Post

and an interesting thought too!


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 10:50pm

Post #6 of 25 (337 views)
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never thought if it that way [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and the Goblin King says to Thorin, after Thorin insists Azog is dead, "So you think his defiling days are done, do you?" Note the Goblin King does NOT contradict Thorin to say Azog is alive.


But that's a new perspective and I didn't catch it. A zombified Azog? Maybe that's why he wants Thorin's head, to eat his brains (I know, bad joke...really bad)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 10 2013, 11:10pm

Post #7 of 25 (305 views)
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ah, thanks for catching me up, ro [In reply to] Can't Post

 

interestingly... i, also, noted that the goblin king, when it would be exceedingly easy to say, "he's aliiiiiiive!" or similar, doesn't do it.

funny, all the goblins and orcs look like zombies to begin with... azog is actually fairly clean-looking, for an orc.

the sword glowing / not glowing thing is neat... i've thought i've noticed orcrist glowing at various times... but it seems inconsistent...also, azog isn't the only orc in the vicinity when thorin does his fiery charge, so even if azog is a zorc ("zombie" + "orc"), it should be glowing blue from the underling orcs in the area. but if the whole zorc theory proves correct, i could give this a pass.



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 10 2013, 11:12pm

Post #8 of 25 (318 views)
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dwarven heads [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But that's a new perspective and I didn't catch it. A zombified Azog? Maybe that's why he wants Thorin's head, to eat his brains (I know, bad joke...really bad)


when i saw that azog's loincloth was made from skinned dwarf faces, every time i subsequently hear him growl, "bring me the dwarf's head" it is even more chilling and horrible.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Loresilme
Valinor


Apr 10 2013, 11:13pm

Post #9 of 25 (307 views)
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Whoa..... [In reply to] Can't Post

"So you think his defiling days are done, do you?" Note the Goblin King does NOT contradict Thorin to say Azog is alive. "
__________________________

Originally I just thought that was a catchy line of dialogue ..... now Ro, your thinking has got me thinking too!


mwaha ha ha ha :-). The plot thickens....


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 11:17pm

Post #10 of 25 (316 views)
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Holy cow [In reply to] Can't Post

I never noticed that! I feel like you and I need to have a Hobbit viewing together because I've seen it 7 times and I don't catch these important details. Which really could tie in with the 'living dead' theory or Azog. Good catches!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 10 2013, 11:32pm

Post #11 of 25 (296 views)
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hah! thanks : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thanks much, tarasaurus. : )

when i first saw grammaboodawg's "geeky observation list" (http://newboards.theonering.net/...;;page=unread#unread ), i was like.... ai! a kindred spirit!

a lot of things i've noticed were already on gramma's list, and i've been very happy to offer up piles more. i notice a lot of small things, some of which are not at all critical to the plot.

every time i saw it in the theater (17x or more times; I think I lost a couple of ticket stubs), i noticed something new.

in that respect, the hobbit was like gosford park for me.

hah! let me know when you want to do the viewing. (as if either of us needs another excuse to watch it : ) ) . i'll bring lembas, cram, and a bowl of bilbo's prize-winners.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Lio
Lorien


Apr 11 2013, 12:28am

Post #12 of 25 (267 views)
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I don't think it's likely, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I dread the possibility all the same. This point has indeed been brought up a few times before, and the fact that several different people have arrived at it independently worries me because I don't much like the idea.

But don't get me wrong, I do appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts.

It's just that I don't think including honest-to-goodness zombies adds anything to the story and it's very un-Tolkien and un-Middle-earth, like something out of a cheesy cheap generic fantasy ripoff movie. (Deep breaths, Lio, deep breaths!) I mean, wouldn't it make more sense for Azog/Bolg/any other Orc to just be alive all along? Why complicate things with weird zombie subplots? Smile

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 1:09am

Post #13 of 25 (256 views)
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Haha! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think if Azog were a modern-type zombie that we see nowadays, that would suck. But I think he could be a 'zombified' form that isn't like that, where it's just that he was dead before and the Necromancer brought him back to life and that's as far as the definition goes. That I can live with, I don't like zombies anyway so I'm glad he's not out to eat dwarf brains!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 11 2013, 1:23am

Post #14 of 25 (259 views)
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comfort yourself with this, lio... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
if azog really is a zorc, we've seen him already.

we don't have to worry about undisclosed weirdness.

hey, and if we're nice, maybe the necromancer will bring back thorin, fili, and kili.

speaking of death, let me share this blasphemous thought: gandalf gets radagast's staff because sauruman secretly kills radagast. no, i don't really think this will happen. i'm just trying to give john boorman some more, fabulous ideas.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Lio
Lorien


Apr 11 2013, 1:29am

Post #15 of 25 (242 views)
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I suppose I could live with... [In reply to] Can't Post

...something like the Necromancer sustaining Azog's or Bolg's wounded body and keeping his spirit in it so that he won't actually "die", or perhaps a situation where his state is something similar to a Ringwraith's. I still wouldn't like it very much, but at least it would be more canon-friendly. Tongue

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Lio
Lorien


Apr 11 2013, 1:37am

Post #16 of 25 (250 views)
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It's true that it might not be as bad as it sounds [In reply to] Can't Post

Depending on how they handle it. Azog does look and act normal so that much is a relief. At least he's not shuffling around and muttering about eating brains! But... what if he dies in the second movie and is brought to life for the third? Nooooooo! Wink Then again, you've got a point about SpoilerSpoilerSpoilerThorinSpoilerSpoilerSpoiler being brought back to life too. That way he can have a tragic death scene at the end of every movie!

I really hope Radagast doesn't die though. Frown I didn't notice that about his staff before. I must pay closer attention next time!

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 1:40am

Post #17 of 25 (238 views)
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I thought [In reply to] Can't Post

of Ringwraiths as well Smile and I agree, something similar to the wraiths would be cool, as long as it doesn't become its own side story Crazy


Marionette
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 3:39pm

Post #18 of 25 (153 views)
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Interesting theory [In reply to] Can't Post

But it change even more the original story, I insist they must try to keep closer to the book (books) . They already changed with Azog and Thoirn (even though Azog is quite similar in the Appendices but with Dain and Nain instead of Thorin)

I am afraid The Hobbit might turn into a fanficFrown


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Apr 11 2013, 5:20pm

Post #19 of 25 (143 views)
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Definitely has been brought up before... [In reply to] Can't Post

I won't claim to know what's going through Peter Jackson's head, but I would hope that even he would know better than to introduce zombification into the story. Although exactly how Thorin came to the conclusion that he killed Azog was never really touched upon, it is clear that we did not see Azog die of his wounds - we saw him dragged back into Moria by other orcs. We did not see him die, so there is no reason to believe that he did die.

With that said, if Azog HAS been reanimated by the Necromancer, I feel that would a completely unforgivable turn of events, and I think I would have to turn my back on these films. That would be going way too far for my tastes.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 6:02pm

Post #20 of 25 (120 views)
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While the idea is an interesting one [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think it would go as far as the Necromancer actually bringing Azog back to life. I think the wraiths being brought back from the dead, as we heard in the DoS sneak peek, is just that the Necromancer/Sauron probably still has power over those he manipulated *the race of men/wraiths and the rings) - Azog not being one as he didn't have a ring. That's just my theory, I could be totally wrong. Smile


Kristin Thompson
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 8:48pm

Post #21 of 25 (103 views)
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Evidence against the idea [In reply to] Can't Post

Just after Thorin says that Azog died of his wound, there's a cut to Gandalf looking off and then one to Balin looking back at him. They both appear worried and skeptical, essentially signalling something to each other like, "Uh-oh, Thorin's being overly optimistic. We don't know that Azog died." This is a cue to us to expect to find out that Azog is alive--which we do almost immediately, when Azog's spies show up and discover Thorin's group. (Bit of a coincidence, that.) I take it that Gandalf and Balin, set up as the two wisest of the group, are assumed here to be right and that the group will eventually find out that Azog did not die. If Azog did die and was brought back by the Necromancer, then this little exchange of significant looks would be pointless and Gandalf and Balin would turn out to be wrong.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 11 2013, 9:01pm

Post #22 of 25 (95 views)
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i hope this is the case [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... as i would not be fond of a zorc storyline.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Macfeast
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 9:46pm

Post #23 of 25 (80 views)
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Was about to say. [In reply to] Can't Post

The way the film portrays it, it feels to me like they're trying to tell us that Azog survived, and that Thorin is being overly optimistic, almost arrogant, in his belief otherwise. In portraying it thus, I feel that much of the potency in a potential "Azog was dead, the Necromancer brought him back"-reveal is lost; Such a reveal would have been much more powerful had Azog actually been confirmed dead, beyond the shadow of a doubt, before making his reappearance. If the Necromancer is supposed to be responsible for Azog's reappearance, by bringing him back from the dead, then why not have Azog killed outright, making it obvious that there's some foul play going on? If Azog being alive is supposed to be an unsolved mystery, then why present Azog's "death" in such a way that makes it perfectly reasonable to think that he may have survived in the first place?

Had we seen Azog beheaded, had the other dwarves also expressed surprise at seeing him, and had Gandalf muttered to himself "the Necromancer" upon seeing him...then I could definitely see this happening. But Azog being given a theoretically survivable wound, never being confirmed as dead, and the only person to believe in Azog's death expressing his beliefs in an almost arrogant manner, while his wiser companions appear skeptical? I think it's supposed to be seen as Thorin being in the wrong here, and that Azog survived.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Apr 11 2013, 9:54pm)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Apr 12 2013, 1:25pm

Post #24 of 25 (51 views)
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I think you are right... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the only "summoning of the dead" going on will be the Necromancer summoning the Nazgul to him. I highly doubt there will be any reanimation or zombification crap, because even though Jackson likes to put his own (sometimes unwelcome) stamp on things, I doubt even he would disrespect Tolkien to that degree. I hope I am right.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Apr 12 2013, 4:01pm

Post #25 of 25 (49 views)
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I agree with you [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Thorin's belief in Azog being dead had more to do with his own arrogance than with any proof he had. I also think that PJ wanted to play on the fact that Azog is supposed to be long-dead by this time in ME history.

 
 

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