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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
deaths in the hobbit trilogy?
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boldog
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 10:18am

Post #1 of 36 (1665 views)
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deaths in the hobbit trilogy? Can't Post

hey folks, this is my first post!Tongue

i was just wondering recently , in the next two installments of the hobbit trilogy, which characters will die?
i know the obvious ones from the book, aka, thorin, kili, fili, smaug and Bolg, but what about the added characters?
ive heard rumours that Tauriel may die, as well as radagast! these are all part of the movie though and not part of tolkien lore anyway. Also Azog would have to die as he is established as one of the main villains.
anyone else know of other rumoured deaths? and i wonder how they will be portrayed........... these are my theories
thorin will either die fighting bolg or azog
fili will be killed by either bolg or azog and thus enrage thorin to fight them in revenge
bolg will die by beorn. A MUST!
azog has to be killed by thorin, or even dain?
if this rumoured love plot of kili and tauriel is true, i can see him and her dying in a scene together in the bo5a
And Radagast i can see dying in Dol guldur, perhaps in treachoury by saruman. (although he doesnt die and cant die!)

what are your theories??UnimpressedUnimpressedUnimpressed


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 10 2013, 10:51am

Post #2 of 36 (690 views)
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Welcome, boldog! [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me be the first to welcome you!

Regarding Azog and Bolg being killed, there's quite a few permutations. We've got Beorn, Dain, Thorin, and possibly Fili or Kili who could be the great-orc slayers. Probably not Fili or Kili. Am I missing anyone? I make out six possibilities there. And then that combined with who does in Fili and Kili gives us a large number of ways this could play out.

I still think either Thorin slays Azog, or Azog delivers the death-blows to Thorin. At least one of those has to happen, possibly both. I'm hoping Thorin gets his hero-moment to shine by finally completely slaying Azog (as opposed to the partial-slaying in the Battle of Azanulbizar).

Please don't let Kili and Tauriel die together in the Bo5A! We don't need a Romeo and Juiliet moment there. Crazy


Angharad73
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 10:59am

Post #3 of 36 (754 views)
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If they have to die... (well *book spoilers*) [In reply to] Can't Post

... (and I know they must), Fili and Kili must be together. They are always together in life, so it follows that they should die together, too, protecting their uncle, like in the book. Otherwise their death scene would lose its impact for me. No Tauriel, please! That would be awful.

I can see Radagast dying at Dol Guldur, although I don't like it much. If it is through some treachery of Saruman's (interesting idea, btw), then this would have be something the viewer can see, but the others, like Gandalf and Galadriel do not see. Otherwise Gandalf seeking Saruman's advice in FOTR would make no sense.

And Welcome boldog! Smile


boldog
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 11:05am

Post #4 of 36 (718 views)
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perhaps kili leaves thorin? [In reply to] Can't Post

in the book bilbo has the arkenstone and hides it from thorin. This enrages him and he banishes bilbo from the company.
But seeing that jackson is could at changing things, and now that he has emphasised thorins hate of elves, it could be possible that in that same scene, some of the dwarves of the company leave thorin with bilbo. A huge schism! And in it i can see Kili going with bilbo for his tauriel love.
this is what i think though i dont like the tauriel love plot either Unsure


Angharad73
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 11:14am

Post #5 of 36 (709 views)
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Kili might leave Thorin... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I don't think he would leave Fili. Or that Fili would let his brother leave without him. Which would put the two brothers together again. No Tauriel necessary.

Now, if I let my imagination run with this idea, one way I could see it working, which would still lead back to them protecting Thorin and going back to the book-verse, is that they both are upset with Thorin after he threatens to kill Bilbo. But during the battle, they realise that he is still their uncle and they love him, and it wasn't *him* that threatened to kill Bilbo, but the Dragon Sickness-induced madness. So they fight their way back to him and then fight side by side with him, thus signalling a reconciliation cut short by their untimely deaths. Ok, have to stuff my imagination back into the box. Blush


Luinnár
Rivendell

Apr 10 2013, 11:46am

Post #6 of 36 (616 views)
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In the book, [In reply to] Can't Post

It mentions that the younger dwarves, Bilbo, and Bombur wanted to join the elves when they heard them singing, but the older ones were too stubborn. I don't think this meant that anyone was in love.


dik-dik
Lorien


Apr 10 2013, 12:59pm

Post #7 of 36 (621 views)
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Welcome to TORN! And here's my two cents on theories... [In reply to] Can't Post

My wild guesses: (can someone tell me if we still are to use the spoiler warnings for book info? If so - a few spoilers are below)

- Tauriel and Radagast don't die. Which would suit me just fine. Death would be giving too much importance and angst to Tauriel, and the less I see of her or hear of her, the happier I'll be. I also find it hard to believe that the scriptwriters would let a young female character die: they avoided females and children dying in LotR (save a few balcony onlookers in Minas Tirith who were just asking for the boulder to be hurled there), so I can quite believe the pattern will be the same in TH. As for Radagast, I'd hate for him to die. As much as his weirdness and crazed looks irked me in the movie, I wouldn't wish this on him. He was endearing in a way. Tongue Same for Beorn who hasn't appeared yet: I hope he doesn't meet his end in the Battle.

- Azog dies battling either Dwarves or more likely, Thranduil's Elves, in part 2, Bolg dies in the Battle in part 3, losing perhaps to Dain's Dwarves, or better still, to Beorn. (I'm not keeping quite abreast of all spoilers, so if it's already known they both appear in part 3 - my bad.)

- Kili and Fili die side by side at the hands of Orcs rather than other monsters, with perhaps one of the brothers receiving a mortal blow, and the other struck down as he rushes to his sibling's aid or maybe when grieving over him heedless of the battle.

- I haven't got the foggiest idea about how Thorin will meet his fate. Perhaps during an epic faceoff with Bolg, or perhaps, and more preferrably for me, when tackling Bolg's guard to get to the orc chieftain in his battle fury. If said guard were let's say trolls (or a giant warg pack), that would work quite well for me. Epic faceoffs are beginning to seem a tad overused to me, so a change would be nice (not to mention closer to canon where I believe there are multiple spears to blame for his death, suggesting being surrounded by many enemies at once?). Also, it would show how sneaky and cowardly the enemies are, playing unfair when a goodie is seeking an honest one-of-one combat. Evil

- I am wondering about the Necromancer as well. He has a wraithlike body of a sort in AUJ, so maybe he'll 'die' and lose that near-physical form when defeated by the White Council? That would explain why we only see an eye in the LotR movies.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


(This post was edited by dik-dik on Apr 10 2013, 1:05pm)


ShireHorse
Rohan

Apr 10 2013, 1:45pm

Post #8 of 36 (615 views)
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Time for me to ask a question [In reply to] Can't Post

that I've been meaning to ask you guys for a long time because I've seen people interpreting this part of the book in different ways.

In the book, Tolkien describes the Bot5A, then we get a description of the parting between Bilbo and Thorin and we also get details of the funeral. Then, in a throwaway line, Tolkien says: "of the twelve companions of Thorin, ten remained. Fili and Kili had fallen defending him with shield and body, for he was their mother's elder brother."

To me, this is an aside because Tolkien sees the death of Thorin as the main event and he doesn't want his readers distracted by the deaths of the brothers, however sad that may be.

But my main concern is the interpretation of those lines about their final moments. I have read quite frequently that people seem to believe that Thorin has fallen, grievously wounded at this point, and that Fili and Kili are bravely standing astride his body defending their uncle from further attack.

I disagree because this puts the spotlight on the brothers and, although I am sure they will get their moments to shine in the battle, our attention should be fixed on Thorin at the end as Tolkien intended. Thorin's death is tragic, as in the original Shakespearean sense, whilst the brothers' deaths are merely very sad. (Pax, all you Fili and Kili lovers, LOL!)

When I first read that passage as an adult, it seemed to me to be a typical Anglo-Saxon/Nordic moment in battle. A few paragraphs earlier, just before Beorn's appearance is described, we have learned that all the dwarves (both the company and Dain's men) are greatly outnumbered and are surrounded by the enemy: "The dwarves were making a stand still about their lords upon a low rounded hill." This is your typical last stand. It is the duty of all warriors in such circumstances to close ranks about their "lords" (Thorin and Dain) and do their utmost to protect them because, once they go down (as Bolg does after Beorn's appearance) then the battle is as good as lost. It doesn't mean that their leaders are seriously injured.

Thorin has driven a wedge into the orc army (just like the Riders at the Pelennor Fields). But he has gone too far and the orcs have surrounded them in a great circle "facing every way" and they become "hemmed in" as Thorin tries to approach Bolg and his guard. And so, I don't think that Thorin has fallen or is badly wounded at this moment: Fili and Kili fight close to him because "he was their mother's elder brother" and their lord. They will get their moment in the film when they are heroically killed. Then I can imagine Thorin turning "fey" at their deaths, just as the book describes Eomer when he thinks his sister is dead. He will go berserk, become reckless and will go down, possibly pierced by spears, as Tolkien describes it, or in a confrontation with Bolg. Then Beorn will carry him from the battle-field.

How do the rest of you see it?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Apr 10 2013, 2:01pm

Post #9 of 36 (595 views)
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Kili and Fili: It could go either way... [In reply to] Can't Post

The brothers fall defending Thorin. Whether they are killed while their uncle still stands or after he receives his death-wound is another matter. I'm not sure that it will make much difference.

I don't see much reason to stray far from how the book describes the battle. Azog is a new factor, but he could be taken out by eiher Dain (as he was in Dwarvish history) or by Thorin. It is Bolg who strikes down Thorin in Tolkien's version; I don't see why that wouldn't work in the movie, especially if Bolg is responding to the death of his father. Beorn, of course, should bring down Bolg.

Tauriel could survive the films or not. She could represent the losses of the Wood-elves at the BoFA. Alfrid should probably die with his Master, or he could be one of the ones who abandon the Master of Lake-town to his ultimate fate. It would be a waste to take out Alfrid during Smaug's attack.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 2:03pm

Post #10 of 36 (553 views)
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I'm not sure... [In reply to] Can't Post

I REALLY want to see Beorn take out Bolg! But someone just posted an interview with the actor who plays Azog, and he said Azog will be in the next 2 films and he wants to go after Thorin...the way it was worded has me scared Azog will be the one to kill Thorin (maybe), but then what will Bolg's role be? Just to be demolished by Beorn? So confused!! Lol


Angharad73
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 2:10pm

Post #11 of 36 (587 views)
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Hmm, my interpretation could go either way [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see that Fili and Kili rush to their uncle's aid after he is wounded or they see him to be in danger. It could be done for dramatic effect. But I agree that this perhaps puts too much emphasis on the two brothers when the protagonist of this particular part should be Thorin. The lads do deserve a very emotional death scene, however, because I see them dying on the field, whereas Thorin dies of his wounds after the battle, so he gets his 'dying moment' later, separately from the two. Unless, of course, PJ decides to do this differently.

From the bits of information that are in the book, my more likely interpretation leans more towards Fili and Kili fighting beside Thorin, acting partially as his bodyguards (in the movie, Dwalin would most likely also fall into this category, without being killed, though) and being struck down while by his side - defending him, yes, but with Thorin still very much on his feet and fighting, too.

The scenario you describe, with the two brothers being killed (perhaps even by Bolg or whichever of the villains is left by then) and Thoring going 'fey', would make a lot of sense to me. And actually, this I would like to see in the movie (not that I really want to see any of the die, but if it has to happen...).


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 10 2013, 2:27pm

Post #12 of 36 (547 views)
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This is very much how I would like to see it [In reply to] Can't Post

It would go with Thorin's character, and also make him the main focus, as you say, which is as it should be.


In Reply To
Thorin has driven a wedge into the orc army (just like the Riders at the Pelennor Fields). But he has gone too far and the orcs have surrounded them in a great circle "facing every way" and they become "hemmed in" as Thorin tries to approach Bolg and his guard. And so, I don't think that Thorin has fallen or is badly wounded at this moment: Fili and Kili fight close to him because "he was their mother's elder brother" and their lord. They will get their moment in the film when they are heroically killed. Then I can imagine Thorin turning "fey" at their deaths, just as the book describes Eomer when he thinks his sister is dead. He will go berserk, become reckless and will go down, possibly pierced by spears, as Tolkien describes it, or in a confrontation with Bolg. Then Beorn will carry him from the battle-field.

How do the rest of you see it?



ShireHorse
Rohan

Apr 10 2013, 3:05pm

Post #13 of 36 (516 views)
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I think there's a good chance that both Azog and Bolg will be at the battle. [In reply to] Can't Post

After all, doesn't Smaug's gold attract everyone to the Mountain? Thorin will want to kill Azog and Beorn will want to kill Bolg who will, presumably, be shown as torturing him in a flashback.

I think that Thorin will get his revenge on Azog and kill him in a spectacular fight. I think he's got to kill him (not Dain nor anyone else) because, otherwise, Thorin doesn't get any form of revenge since Smaug has been killed by Bard. Thorin will then try to make his way towards Bolg, as described in the book, because, if he can take out Bolg, then the battle should come to an end.

Beorn hasn't arrived yet (as in the book) and so Bolg turns his attentions on Thorin who has just killed his father. Kili and Fili get killed and then Thorin tries to plough his way through Bolg's giant guard in an effort to reach him. He manages to kill most of the guard but is struck down at the last moment, either by the remnants of the guard or by Bolg or a combination. Beorn arrives and crushes Bolg to death in a fury.

I don't think we shall have a long drawn out book ending with Bilbo invisible and unconscious and finally being found and taken to the dying Thorin in some pavilion. I think that Bilbo will take part in the battle, out on the fringes perhaps, but doing his best. When Beorn carries Thorin from the battlefield (in slo-mo, of course) he will already have killed Bolg - he won't return to the fray to do it as in the book. Perhaps he will place Thorin under a tree and that's where Bilbo finds him, either alone or with a growling Beorn slowly turning back into a man as the battle subsides behind them. That's when B&T can have their final conversation.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 4:24pm

Post #14 of 36 (470 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When Beorn carries Thorin from the battlefield (in slo-mo, of course)


I'm going to cry picturing this D':


marillaraina
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 4:56pm

Post #15 of 36 (453 views)
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q [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see it that way in terms of Thorin, Kili and Fili standing together fighting and Kili and Fili falling first. However given that Thorin's REAL death scene is after the battle(assuming that sticks to the books), I don't see any real reason why they should not get their own little moment to shine here. I don't mean Thorin falling first, but in terms of giving them some focus. IMO that makes even more sense if they fall first, as opposed to defending an already injured Thorin. Thorin has plenty of time to get his focus after they fall and then with his own death scene after the battle.

With regards to them splitting up, I hope they do not split them up. I'd seriously dislike that. It's mentioned that Kili and Fili(as well as Bombur I thinK) do not really agree with Thorin's handling of the Laketown situation and I could even see them siding with Bilbo but I don't necessarily think it would go so far as them leaving.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 5:05pm

Post #16 of 36 (456 views)
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Yes, I would dislike them being split up too [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
With regards to them splitting up, I hope they do not split them up. I'd seriously dislike that. It's mentioned that Kili and Fili(as well as Bombur I thinK) do not really agree with Thorin's handling of the Laketown situation and I could even see them siding with Bilbo but I don't necessarily think it would go so far as them leaving.


This would make me so upset as well! It's like Merry and Pippin splitting up, and they are distraught when they are forced to be split up.

Anyway, I agree with your vision and if Thorin has his moment after Fili and Kili, then Bilbo can have his moment along with Thorin as Thorin mends their broken relationship before he goes.


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Apr 10 2013, 7:08pm

Post #17 of 36 (480 views)
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Fili & Kili *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

must die defending their uncle Thorin. I want to be weeping like a baby in the theater and using lots of tissue....Unsure


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Apr 11 2013, 12:25am)


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 10 2013, 7:50pm

Post #18 of 36 (422 views)
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Personally, I don't think Thorin should get his 'revenge'. [In reply to] Can't Post

 Instead, all his main enemies should be dealt with by others (Bard, Beorn, Dain. etc), while he finally comes to realise the folly and cost of pride and distrust, and perhaps also greed.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Apr 10 2013, 7:51pm)


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

Apr 10 2013, 9:08pm

Post #19 of 36 (391 views)
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Just one Perspective [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not sure that first Fili and Kili will fall before a yet battle-able Thorin. As others have alluded, this sequence would give Thorin
the onus of revenge on behalf of his fallen kinmates. I think the scene loses its perspective in such a narrative, eliciting a more myopic
revenge rather than a larger revenge/redemption for his kin as a whole in what was lost to them and only now regained.
A hardened warrior king fights alongside his kin and does now grasp that in fighting one might also get killed? This is part of the deal, and
wouldn't Thorin know this? I see Thorin in a blood fury before Fili and Kili ever fall, and if they fell, I would think more than anything that their deaths
would take the fight out of him and fetter his resolve, allowing the orcs to seize the moment and pounce on him!!!!! that is if he isn't already on the ground, mortally
wounded.
If it were the other way around, would Thorin's revenge be his alone and not be the larger redemption of his people? does this make sense? what you think?


ShireHorse
Rohan

Apr 10 2013, 9:27pm

Post #20 of 36 (378 views)
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Sorry, Hamkanz, but I've got to disagree. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always supported Thorin and been annoyed with the rest of them ever since I read the book. Thorin has the responsibility and the right as a warrior and the heir of Durin to kill Azog in revenge for the death and defiling of Thror. Why have the others any better right? Bilbo betrays him; Thranduil shows the most greed of any of them; Bard is in it for selfish reasons because he wants to be king of Dale; Beorn has his own agenda; Dain never answered his king's call when he asked for his help (or at least that's the way the film is playing it). Why are any of them more deserving than Thorin who has done his best against all the odds?

Tolkien expects us to forgive Thorin for his flaws the moment he emerges from the Mountain to help the men and elves in battle. And, if we are still feeling grumpy about him as he lies dying, then his apology to Bilbo for losing his temper with him should be more than sufficient to absolve him. To me, Thorin appears nobler than any of the others AND he loses his life while the others go on to spend his treasure and live lives of comfort and power. You're just too hard on him.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 11:15pm

Post #21 of 36 (303 views)
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Nicely put [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you - and I'm sure (or mostly sure) that Thorin will be the one to put an end to Azog; to me it doesn't really make sense for anyone else to do it (unless Azog just happened to be in the way of someone else's weapon).

Also, I love the way you explained your perspective, makes me like Thorin as a character even more now. Just a misunderstood and slightly cranky dwarf, but he has all the reason to be!


Lio
Lorien


Apr 11 2013, 12:57am

Post #22 of 36 (309 views)
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I agree with this (book spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

Not because I hate Thorin or anything (I like him!) but I think having him not finish off any of his sworn enemies adds an additional tinge of tragedy to the character. So that in the last movie we'll have Thorin suffer his breakdown, see his nephews die, not achieve any of his goals, and finally die himself. But I think the point should be that all these things are the result of his folly, from which he achieves a healing of sorts through his reconciliation with Bilbo. There's a lot of potential there, we'll just have to see how it plays out.

Anyway, at this point I think I'll throw in my own death speculation into the fray!

  • Azog kills Fili, Kili, and Thorin (Fili and Kili will die before Thorin is injured)
  • Dain kills Azog (matches the book, plus they need to give Dain something to do)
  • Beorn kills Bolg (pretty much a given, it's too an iconic moment from the book to change)
Or (I think this is less likely since it leaves Dain with nothing to do, but it takes into account the Azog/Bolg revenge angle):

  • Azog kills Fili and Kili
  • Thorin kills Azog
  • Bolg mortally wounds Thorin
  • Beorn kills Bolg

Oh, and I hope that Radagast and Tauriel don't die. There willl already be so many deaths in the movies that I think having them die too will take away from that impact.

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Kimtc
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 2:13am

Post #23 of 36 (272 views)
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I also saw it as an aside, but for a different reason. [In reply to] Can't Post

The first time I read it I almost missed it, it was so casually tossed in there, and seemed like an afterthought (I also went "Huh?!"). I figured that Tolkien had decided Dain would be king, and then realized that couldn't happen if Fili or Kili was still about (clearly he hadn't thought of having one or both of them trundle off into the sunset with a female warrior elf). So they had to go; I honestly feel like if he had decided on the end of their character arc (such as it is) earlier, there would have been a more elaborate scene. I know this is terribly presumptuous of me to try to crawl into the mind of a literary genius, but if there is a letter he wrote to C.S. Lewis or someone about this out there ("Now I know you were wondering at tea last week about the abrupt demise of Fili and Kili") lead me to it.


In Reply To
To me, this is an aside because Tolkien sees the death of Thorin as the main event and he doesn't want his readers distracted by the deaths of the brothers, however sad that may be



boldog
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 9:01am

Post #24 of 36 (259 views)
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concerning radagast [In reply to] Can't Post

just going away from bo5a for a sec, the dol guldur subplot can supply its own tragedies into the film.
in my honest opinion, it will probably involve an infiltration of the fortress by the white council. no siege, no armies.
within this sequence therell be alot of orc slaughter, and fighting. they will most likely also show the nine, in their lotr hooded form too, and they would battle out with the council, until the necromancer himself comes out. the fight will involve a lot of magic. skipping a lot now, and going to radagasts death.
i believe there will be a scene where he and saruman are locked in a room with the necromancer, and saruman talks with him, promising to build an army worthy of mordor. radagast will be shocked and confused, and saruman will kill him. just then the doors will be hammered with the fists of the white council coming in, and sauron flees, and saruman in an attempt to cover his treachoury, as they come in, bends over radagast pretending to be sad saying "you were right gandalf sauron has returned, much to a heavy cost." everyone is sad, but gandalf has a doubt in saruman and feels that he has done evil.
thats my verdict on that.
as for bolg.
he is in dol guldur because his description says so. this part really confuses me. if there is some backstory within the upcoming films, i believe it will explain why he is there, possibly sent by azog as a representitive of his people, to the dark lord.
also on a side note.
could it be possible that further backstory is emphasised on azog and bolg. i thought, they could explain why he came to hate the dwarves so much, leading up to his defilement of thror, and why he swore to wipe out the line of durin. could they show some scene of his spouse, the mother of bolg, being tortured or killed by dwarves and thus this is what enraged him.
I WANT TO SEE HIS SPOUSE, THE MOTHER OF BOLG!!HeartSmile
and it will be quite awkward if for some reaon bolgs mother is celebrian the wife of elrond.....Unsure


ShireHorse
Rohan

Apr 11 2013, 1:15pm

Post #25 of 36 (229 views)
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Thorin's tragedy: [In reply to] Can't Post

" I think having him not finish off any of his sworn enemies adds an additional tinge of tragedy to the character. So that in the last movie we'll have Thorin suffer his breakdown, see his nephews die, not achieve any of his goals, and finally die himself. But I think the point should be that all these things are the result of his folly, from which he achieves a healing of sorts through his reconciliation with Bilbo. There's a lot of potential there, we'll just have to see how it plays out." (Lio)

That's an interesting take on things, Lio. You have a point and I understand totally what you are saying. But my gentle soul would get no satisfaction from it and neither would a large percentage of the audience. It's just too cruel if he achieves NOTHING. Even when that final fight between Azog and Thorin was put up on YT, an awful lot of people didn't understand either there and on other forums that Thorin didn't win and complained virulently about it. I think that PJ will pander to our desire for Thorin to get his vengeance.

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