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squire
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
Post #76 of 90
(1091 views)
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"Y' get accustomed to th' smell."
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"Y' get accustomed to th' smell." - Thenardier, while robbing corpses of jewelry in the Paris sewer, Les Miserables.
"A scientist was researching a hideous disfiguring disease. Unfortunately, he contracted it himself, long before he had any chance of discovering the cure. Happily, as he observed his transformed appearance in the mirror, he was able to reflect, 'But on me, it looks good.'" - A fable told by Sam to Yama, regarding the latter's falling in love with an cruel and selfish woman, in Zelazny's Lord of Light (paraphrased from memory).
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..” - Satan, reflecting on his and his minions' future after his Fall, in Milton's Paradise Lost.
These quotes all came to my mind as I read your post. To me, the question leads us to one of Tolkien's largest themes: the moral imperative of achieving or recovering empathy for other minds and souls; of refusing to impose ones will on any others', leaving them free, at whatever immediate cost to oneself or to the world.
Evil, as he describes it, is the triumph of the ego over all desire to interact with the world on a give and take basis. We see this in Sauron's Ring of Power in LotR, of course; in Melkor's case, his fall stems from his inability to subordinate his own gifts to a larger plan (originally, a chorus) not of his own making. The result of the downward moral spiral of cruelty, guilt, and repression that follows is that such a character doesn't see himself as degraded when he is "wallowing in filth", as you put it. Rather, the filth is redefined in his intensely solipsistic world view as a desirable state, even the most desirable state possible by the definition that it must be so if he is the one wallowing in it!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
Post #77 of 90
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the ruler of the noldor -- high queen galadriel
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i've always wondered why the rulership of the noldor did not pass to galadriel.
clearly a far-sighted person, a strong person, gifted, a natural leader with many skills -- and -- a desire to rule.
in my mind, she is the high queen, and takes precedence over gil-galad.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Apr 16 2013, 1:48am
Post #78 of 90
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According to Finwe in Laws and Customs, he and Indis were separated. This is what he says regarding her while he's in the Halls of Mandos: "Indis parted from me without death. I had not seen her for many years, and when the Marrer smote me I was alone."
So, yes, they were separated, and I'm sure the relationship between their children was a great part of the reason.
About the different versions - you're right that the other is written by Tolkien, too. Since this text forms part of the "later Quenta", though, I'm surprised it wasn't used.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen
(This post was edited by Ardamírë on Apr 16 2013, 1:48am)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 2:07am
Post #79 of 90
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Ungoliant from Arda Reconstructed
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It appears that Ungoliant was always intended to be part of the story. There's no explanation (here, anyway) of where she came from. The significant differences from the published work are:
1. When Melkor first found her, she was weak and afraid of him. He fed her gems to make her stronger. She was a tortured creature who needed to feed on light, but her webs blocked it all out, so she created her own starvation. (Not the smartest spider on the island.)
2. Melkor subdues her back into his service with threats and bribes, and Evil Spider-Food of stolen Valinor gems.
***And to directly address Boldog's comments, Voronwe/Doug Kane wrote: "she provides a strong counterpoint to Melkor in Tolkien's depiction of evil, and losing these details is definitely a shame."
3. Melkor has an illuminating cursing of Ulmo and the Sea, which helps support later comments about his hatred of the Sea and hatred of the Noldor for having the friendship of Ulmo.
4. Ungoliant kills the trees on her own. Melkor lets her do the dirty work, and afterwards defiled and "threw down the thrones of the Valar." He's pretty tough when there's no one to fight back.
5. He's become afraid of her now that she's fed on the Trees and Varda's vats, and he takes her unwillingly with him to Formenos after he fails to elude her.
6. There's a better depiction of Manwe left out. Manwe told Feanor to come to the feast, saying he loved him and Feanor would be honored there. But it was Feanor who interpreted this as a "command," which shows how poisoned his mind has become. The published version has Manwe seeming stern, and makes it easier to see why Finwe stayed behind.
Kane goes on to say that Christopher once again weakened and abbreviated a strong female character and departed from his father's latest writings on the subject. But I'll side with Chris on this one, because to me it's important in the big picture of the book for Melkor to be directly responsible for killing the Trees and not just stealing the Silmarils and killing Finwe. And besides that, Ungoliant disappears soon afterwards in all versions, making it disappointing to have the Tree-killer written off so quickly. Another Tree-killer needs to stick around as The Villain.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 2:43am
Post #80 of 90
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Melkor killing the Trees extends the tale
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Kane goes on to say that Christopher once again weakened and abbreviated a strong female character and departed from his father's latest writings on the subject. But I'll side with Chris on this one, because to me it's important in the big picture of the book for Melkor to be directly responsible for killing the Trees and not just stealing the Silmarils and killing Finwe. And besides that, Ungoliant disappears soon afterwards in all versions, making it disappointing to have the Tree-killer written off so quickly. Another Tree-killer needs to stick around as The Villain.
In addition having Melkor be an active participant in the destruction of the Trees brings the shadow of the act into the Third Age in a direct albeit secondary fashion as Sauron (tutored by Melkor) takes his place as the primary Dark Lord. He's not just a random bit of evil to surface and craft a random Ring, and I feel like it links the Ages together, and unites the time flow through the stories, from the creation of the Jewels and the Oath through how that whole situation set in motion the ability of Sauron to learn from Melkor and rise (and fall...and rise again...well you all know the rest.) As Sam says, don't the great tales ever end? So in the end I agree and do like him 'on the spot'.
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 16 2013, 3:06am
Post #81 of 90
(1080 views)
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so why is everyone so nuts over feanor?
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3. There's just nothing likable about Feanor and how his personality works, is there? Though his grief for Finwe over all other things (Silmarils implied) redeems him for about 2 minutes in my mind.
so many people find him so fascinating, and state that he is their favorite character.
but we see he is incredibly selfish, haughty, and even cruel. even as he is dying and has the revelation that the noldor cannot win against morgoth, he +still+ exhorts his sons to pursue something that will end only in ruin and loss on a massive scale, for them, and all those who follow them, and all those who are under their protection.
tv tropes might call him "draco in leather pants"...
http://tvtropes.org/.../DracoInLeatherPants
and we might be victim to what tv tropes calls "jerkass dissonance"...
http://tvtropes.org/...in/JerkassDissonance
the only people that we've seen feanor treat lovingly (for however long) are his father and wife. he treats his sons like instruments, rather than self-determining individuals (imagine what he would have said if any of them had gainsaid him on any topic dear to his heart). in that, he is rather like melkor, although certainly not to the same degree. feanor is not evil, but does evil.
which leads into... at what point is some bad thing that someone does an aberration? one can say that this bad thing that is done is out of character... but if it is done repeatedly, at what point does it +become+ one's character?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 3:59am
Post #82 of 90
(1053 views)
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Feanor had a good image consultant in his author
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I started with LOTR, and there are a few mentions of him there, primarily when Gandalf says he might have been the one to create the palantiri, which I thought were pretty cool. Then there's the quick synopsis in an appendix that mentions his actions, which seem proud but heroic and not bad.
Then in The Silmarillion
1. His mom dies, making him pitiable.
2. He gets nice introductions, such as (Chapter 5) "Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame."
3. Chapter 6 (back tracking): "In that time was born in Eldamar...the eldest of the sons of Finwe, and the most beloved."
Then early in his career he's confident but not overbearing, and magnificently talented, a great prodigy. So on my first read, I felt obligated to like him. It was only on further reads that I grew to detest him and stopped overlooking his faults. But I feel like Tolkien sets him up as a likable character, and maybe saw him as just flawed. I seem him as not evil, but a doer of evil, as you put it.
which leads into... at what point is some bad thing that someone does an aberration? one can say that this bad thing that is done is out of character... but if it is done repeatedly, at what point does it +become+ one's character? I wish I had a good answer to a good question, but not really. There are all those shades of gray that people have (not the book of that name). It's easier with horrific things. If a person kills and mutilates just one person, you conclude they are bad, and you don't need a long list of identical crimes to form that opinion. But everyday people doing little, everyday, hurtful things to other people--it's hard to say. You can see people who are great to their families who are gleefully treacherous to their coworkers, or wonderfully supportive of their coworkers and immorally indifferent to families and friends. So when you try to figure out when do the bad actions become that person's character, it seems all about which context you're talking about, and we all live in multiple contexts. So I gave a long explanation that would be better served with a more concise "I don't know."
But I will acknowledge that Feanor didn't start out as a bad person, but he became one, and it can't all be blamed on Melkor. Or maybe it can be and I can't see that. He started out as a creator of beauty but lost the beauty of his own personality that he was born with. I don't think he put his inner good into the Silmarils the way Sauron put his power into his Ring (though it would explain a lot). I think he made something greater than himself, and somehow that warped him into a destroyer instead of a creator, maybe because he knew he could never make anything as great as the Silmarils again, couldn't even make them again, and people hate to reach the end of their creative powers--he could have wound up a self-destructive, alcoholic has-been author in modern times.
Otherwise, in his Draconess, maybe people like the bad boy anti-hero who's cocky. That's Feanor.
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 4:09am
Post #83 of 90
(1060 views)
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The problem with Feanor is that we can't see his work. According to Tolkien, if we could do so, we'd understand his appeal to his associates and compatriots. They find him difficult but forgive him everything when they see yet another product of his studio or workshop that transcends in aesthetics and craftsmanship what they had thought the Elvish spirit could physically realize.
His character is a fairly common type in life - perhaps you've met him, God knows I have, having spent a few decades in the theater arts industry. Think of a gifted individual who creates works of incredible beauty and spiritual insight, but who in person is at best a jerk, at worst a manipulative tyrant. It's not necessarily just in the field of Art, as much as it is in any field in which high competence resembles an artistic gift: politics, business entrepreneurship, religious leadership, and scientific inquiry or invention are all fields where this type seems to pop up regularly. How many times have we heard of a statesman or philosopher or artist or musician who loves the human race, but despises individual humans? It's weird, it seems contradictory, but I think it's undeniable that such a combination is common enough in human history to have become almost a stereotype.
Oh dear. Did I just accuse Tolkien of creating a stereotypical character?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 4:45am
Post #84 of 90
(1057 views)
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I don't think Feanor is a stereotype, but he's similar to the people you describe. I just don't think it's stereotypical for an artist to become a general and lead a crusade against Satan after rebelling against the gods. That's getting way outside the theater and portrait studio. But you make an excellent point that we can only imagine the Silmarils, whereas the Elves and Valar could see and experience them, so we couldn't appreciate him as they do.
If you want an example of a stereotype, I'd suggest Ioreth, the silly, gossipy woman in Gondor. She stands out most in my mind. Will Whitfoot is another: the mostly useless but amiable small-time politician who exists just for show.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 11:17am
Post #85 of 90
(1038 views)
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In a documentary, I heard an account of the descent of Jim Morrison (singer songwriter of the band The Doors) into increasingly erratic behaviour. There was a comment that, urged on by huge Jim's charm and talents, people encouraged him to see himself as "King and Sole Inhabitant of Planet Unreasonable" (wonderful phrase). That is, he'd been conditioned, or had come to believe that he was entitled to anything he wanted, and the effect on anyone else was unimportant. T
Maybe Feanor is pretty much there too. A small shove will tip him over the edge, and boy is he gonna get one in the next Chapter.
I agree with CuriousG (as usual) though - the usual path for someone like Feanor would be to either keep on creating, perhaps turning out to have peaked at the Silmarils. Or to implode and end up in the Elvish version of Hello! Magazine (er that would be- "Mae g'ovannen! Magazine" ?), pictured off his head on miruovoir, and surrounded by giggling young elf maidens. A move into politics (and more) in the next chapter is a bit unexpected.
BTW I'm all ready to post on "The Flight of the Noldor", but don't want prematurely to shut down the fun we're having here. Rush up to me and say "It!" when you're ready.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 11:22am
Post #86 of 90
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...and if it smells troubling today
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...and if it smells troubling today, you either tell yourself it is a necessary means to an end (Saruman) or it is all someone else's fault (Gollum).
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 16 2013, 11:23am
Post #87 of 90
(1012 views)
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is it acceptable form to have multiple chapter discussions active? i'm hoping so, because good conversation seems to breed good conversation.
"mae govannen!" --- pfffft!!!!. : )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 12:08pm
Post #88 of 90
(1013 views)
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Given the slightest encouragement.... Let the debate on Chapter 9 rage on over here
Starting another thread doesn't automatically shut down this one - you can add further comments to any thread I believe (I've found and commented upon some from previous years).
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 16 2013, 12:15pm
Post #89 of 90
(1004 views)
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let multiple threads flower with abandon.
many cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 16 2013, 1:51pm
Post #90 of 90
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Tolkien's villians - can we deduce any general points?
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Based on this excellent discussion of Ungoliant c.f. Melkor I tried to make a theory about villains in Tolkien, but it collapsed while under construction, having got too bing & general to post either here or in the next chapter. So I've posted the wreckage over here, and would be interested in everyone's thoughts!
Its all your fault (that I'm having such a good time!) :) 
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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I started the next chapter...
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