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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Christopher Lee and Phillip Boyens, regarding Galadriel and the Wizards. . . why do I have a strong feeling
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 7 2013, 5:32pm

Post #1 of 33 (21046 views)
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Christopher Lee and Phillip Boyens, regarding Galadriel and the Wizards. . . why do I have a strong feeling Can't Post

that Ms. Boyens would not make some of the statements she makes concerning Galadriel's status among the Chief Wise, if Christopher Lee were sitting at her side during the commentary. . . I know, it seems a strange notion, but it came to me most strongly watching the Best Buy documentary. Phillipa puts emphasis on the fact that Galadriel "decided" to call together the Wise and form a council, which of course is very true, though one notes she puts more emphasis on Galadriel conveneing the council than upon the council itself, its members and their nature. By contrast, Christopher Lee both acknowledges the great power and wisdom of the council as a whole, but also emphasizes Saruman's role within it. He is "Number 1," The head of The Council and the foremost of The Wizards.

I get the very strong feeling that Phillipa would never dream of suggesting to the Legendarium steeped loremaster Lee that Galadriel, mighty and magnificent as we all agree she was, was the most powerful being in Middle-Earth.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 7 2013, 5:42pm

Post #2 of 33 (739 views)
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Wasn't the role of #1 appointed to Saruman by Galadriel? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 7 2013, 5:50pm

Post #3 of 33 (754 views)
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They had Saruman fall from Orthanc [In reply to] Can't Post

And his outcome was death by spike. Quite un-Tolkien, and un-Saruman. Yet ... they still did it.

I really doubt she cares whether Lee knows more than her. They didn't care 10 years ago, why care now Wink?

The White Council storyline is still yet to be told. The EEs, DOS and TABA could all change the structure of (and add more depth to) the Council.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 7 2013, 5:52pm)


Tintallė
Gondor


Apr 7 2013, 6:05pm

Post #4 of 33 (711 views)
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No, Galadriel wanted Mithrandir to head the council [In reply to] Can't Post

(which apparently ticked Saruman off) but he refused. Curunir (Saruman) was chosen by the council because he had studied Sauron more than any of them.

Bad move on their part.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 7 2013, 6:05pm

Post #5 of 33 (694 views)
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No. There were no singular appointments. And, as they seem never to have entirely [In reply to] Can't Post

gotten on, she would not have appointed him. It was a committe decision. Galadriel had wanted Gandalf, and the other Elves (the Elves loved him, as is known) would certainly have supported that, but he would not consent to be subject to the calls and obligations of heading the organization (i.e. would not be answerable to the committe's summons etc.). Saruman was chosen by the council, being the most learned in Ring Lore, but he begrudged them all that they had shown prefference to Mithrandir, "for already his pride and desire for mastery had grown great."

In Reply To


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Tintallė
Gondor


Apr 7 2013, 6:12pm

Post #6 of 33 (743 views)
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Mr. Lee had better re-read his Tolkien, then. [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman was prideful and self-important from the beginning, a trait most unbecoming in a guardian of Middle Earth. He resented Galadriel's backing of Gandalf for council head. Saruman may have been the oldest Istari but his ambition kept him from being the wisest. He was a proud, conceited wizard who imagined taking Sauron's ring for himself, to rule over Middle Earth rather than save it.

Don't like Saruman. Don't like Christopher Lee either - although he seems perfect for the part.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 7 2013, 6:15pm

Post #7 of 33 (672 views)
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Well . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Unsurelol

I don't think she cares that he knows more on the topic, but I think she is aware and would be far less likely to make broad and untested generalizations placing an Elf, even one as great as Galadriel, categorical above no less than 8 Maiar and possibly more than that. I think she takes liberties in her commentary at times, taking some advantage of the presumed relative ignorace of the general audience. I don't think she would want to make that statement with Lee hat her side, and risk him making that stern, inquisitorial face he makes so well, and potentially interjecting a correction. lol (In that rumbling bass/baritone) "Actually, Phillipa, that is not exactly so. The Istari, as you know, were Ainur sent. . . . . . . . . . also, the power of Sauron must be considered, and no sure statement can be made concerning The Balrog of Moria, also a corrupted Maiar demon of great power. As Gandalf has said, 'against some I have not yet been tested.'" lol

In Reply To
And his outcome was death by spike. Quite un-Tolkien, and un-Saruman. Yet ... they still did it.

I really doubt she cares whether Lee knows more than her. They didn't care 10 years ago, why care now Wink?

The White Council storyline is still yet to be told. The EEs, DOS and TABA could all change the structure of (and add more depth to) the Council.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 7 2013, 6:20pm

Post #8 of 33 (701 views)
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Zing all over. [In reply to] Can't Post

I like Lee quite well. Saruman. . . "a fool he became and yet pitiable." And pride was not a flaw he was alone in, though he fell to his where other's prevailed. Galadriel was also guilty of pride; the pride that her uncle inspired in her heart, though she was ever unfriend's with him exactly because of the darkness within him, unaware at the time that something of that was also mirrored in herself. Indeed, they were all stained by the shadow of the Pride and Will of that original, mightiest among the proud and among The Ainur, Melkor who arose in Might. They hated him, but the taint of his ways was evinced in them all, even as they strove against him.

Eldest is an odd term, though I know Tolkien once used it. I think his other description, more carefully worded, was more apt, in that Saruman was widely regarded as the eldest, having come first (perhaps as much as several years before Gandalf and the others arrived. Gandalf was deemed to be the second highest of the order, though he seemed least in looks of stature etc.).

In Reply To
Saruman was prideful and self-important from the beginning, a trait most unbecoming in a guardian of Middle Earth. He resented Galadriel's backing of Gandalf for council head. Saruman may have been the oldest Istari but his ambition kept him from being the wisest. He was a proud, conceited wizard who imagined taking Sauron's ring for himself, to rule over Middle Earth rather than save it.

Don't like Saruman. Don't like Christopher Lee either - although he seems perfect for the part.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Apr 7 2013, 7:37pm

Post #9 of 33 (614 views)
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What is it [In reply to] Can't Post

that you dont like about the man?

Vous commencez ą m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Tintallė
Gondor


Apr 7 2013, 7:47pm

Post #10 of 33 (622 views)
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Two things - [In reply to] Can't Post

His acting - and especially his gestures at the council table in AUJ - seems contrived and wooden to me. Sorry - I know that doesn't fit with the public view, but there it is. To each his own, I suppose.

First and foremost, though, was his reaction to having many of the scenes he'd filmed for LOTR cut. LOTR was not really about Saruman at all and I thought the amount of Saruman we got was more than enough. In fact I could have done without the fall to the spiked wheel altogether. I though it was quite silly of him to sulk about having less screen time than he'd envisioned, and it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Finally.while Lee may have a notable voice it is hardly the timbre I'd imagined for Saruman, who was able to charm people with his melodious, sweet voice, a voice people wanted to keep listening to and would follow unhesitatingly. I have no inclination to follow Christopher Lee anywhere.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 7 2013, 8:45pm

Post #11 of 33 (571 views)
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I think his voice is pitch perfect for it, "when he is in control of it" lol. It has [In reply to] Can't Post

a smooth depth, and sounds reverened and wise, again, when he is speaking patiently and with aloof control. . . when he descends into petty criticisms and threats, he looses it, but the same was true of Saruman.

As to the scene. . . I thought it was a great scene. . . up until the damned spike. Agreed. That was tacky. It was also a greivous error to not have the body dissipate, and the Spirit temporarily take a visible form before departing. It is a great moment in the books as well, better than in the movie, and I wish he had been on the balcony, and calm at the onset, as in the novel.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


vexx801
Rivendell


Apr 7 2013, 8:47pm

Post #12 of 33 (578 views)
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The acting [In reply to] Can't Post

I can understand. But from what I also understand, wasn't Lee acting on a Green-screened sound stage without any of the other actors present? Or am I wrong in saying that?


sycorax82
Rohan

Apr 7 2013, 10:06pm

Post #13 of 33 (533 views)
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His death in the book is just as cheap [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think Peter did the character any disservice by having him fall on a spike. It was actually more fitting an end for such a prominent character.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 7 2013, 10:15pm

Post #14 of 33 (530 views)
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It wasn't and here is why. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

The method and manner was somewhat cheap, yes. And also questionable. . . even void a staff the strength of a Wizard would surpass a normal man's (Gandalf defeated The Balrog after his staff was broken on the bridge in the novel), and Frodo's notion that he was without power also seems in error, as he still would have known enchantments even if their power would be greatly diminished in the absence of his staff of office. However, the process of his phyisical death made clear his non-human nature, and that was sadly missing in the extended film and replaced with cheap, tacky , gore humour.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Apr 7 2013, 10:19pm

Post #15 of 33 (500 views)
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Saruman's Fate [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And his outcome was death by spike. Quite un-Tolkien, and un-Saruman. Yet ... they still did it.


He was liberated from his mortal flesh in the book. That was his fate to honor, and they did not want "The Scouring of the Shire." If I recall correctly, he did die by the knife in the book, as he mostly did in the movie. It might be an interesting fan exercise to come up with a viable alternative than ending him with the spike - within the constraints of the movie.


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Apr 7 2013, 10:25pm

Post #16 of 33 (506 views)
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You are right [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I can understand. But from what I also understand, wasn't Lee acting on a Green-screened sound stage without any of the other actors present? Or am I wrong in saying that?


Christopher Lee is something like 93 years old. He could not come to NZ so they filmed his part in England and spliced him in. There were some instances of this in LOTR. Sean Bean says in a commentary somewhere that he was surprised to see himself in the departure from Rivendell scene because he was in England when that was filmed.


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Apr 8 2013, 9:31am

Post #17 of 33 (392 views)
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Well, how about [In reply to] Can't Post

Just change the fact that Orthanc was made of indestructible rock and have the Ents charge into it and kill him. After of course he has made an attempt to flame one of them with a ball of fire from his staff!


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 8 2013, 12:15pm

Post #18 of 33 (383 views)
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Funnily enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

Weta have chosen to print a quote from SIR Chrstopher Lee in their latest "Chronicles: Creatures and Characters" Book:




Quote



"The Wizards were Maiar, powerful spirits sent to Middle-earth in the deep past by the Valar, who are akin to gods in Middle-earth lore."



He definitely knows his stuff!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Æ Victoria Monfort






AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 8 2013, 12:58pm

Post #19 of 33 (380 views)
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God Bless him. You see what I mean? I hope Phillipa reads it OFTEN. [In reply to] Can't Post

Reads it. . . reads it, imbibes it, contemplates it, breathes it, lives it! lol Most importantly I hope she REMEMBERS it every time she writes a scene involving Wizards and Elves. . . then again, she might remember it and think, "ooooh, a chance to show how Galadriel is superior to the Angelic Host!" FrownCrazyFrown

In Reply To
Weta have chosen to print a quote from SIR Chrstopher Lee in their latest "Chronicles: Creatures and Characters" Book:




Quote



"The Wizards were Maiar, powerful spirits sent to Middle-earth in the deep past by the Valar, who are akin to gods in Middle-earth lore."



He definitely knows his stuff!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Apr 8 2013, 2:20pm

Post #20 of 33 (342 views)
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Lee's acting [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
His acting - and especially his gestures at the council table in AUJ - seems contrived and wooden to me. Sorry - I know that doesn't fit with the public view, but there it is. To each his own, I suppose.

Maybe he was a bit wooden in AUJ, but that's mostly because of his age. The man is getting up there in age, and is beginning to show it (watch any recent interview with him and you'll see what I mean). Lee is not a bad actor by any stretch. His acting in the LOTR films was far from wooden, it was one of the highlights for me (I'm a Saruman fan though, so am biased there). Personally, I am glad that he was able to come back at all. I'd much rather get an old and tired Christopher Lee reprising his iconic role, than have to see another actor portraying Saruman.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 8 2013, 2:21pm

Post #21 of 33 (345 views)
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Unfortunately... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the section on Galadriel, the narrative (which I'm tentatively attributing to Daniel Falconer as author of the book?) there is this curious statement: (bolding mine)




Quote

"Even among the wise of Middle-earth, the Lady Galadriel of Lothlorien is held in reverence and her words carry great weight. One of the oldest beings in the world, Galadriel has seen the mighty rise and fall, lands change shape and powers shift. Bearer of the Elven Ring of Power, Nenya, she possesses knowledge and enchantments unknown even to the Wizards and by her magic is the realm of Lorien kept safe from evil influence or intrusion."



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Æ Victoria Monfort






Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Apr 8 2013, 2:31pm

Post #22 of 33 (336 views)
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Saruman's book death [In reply to] Can't Post

I always loved the way Tolkien described Saruman's spirit rising and leaning to the west, only to have a wind come out of the west and dissipate his spirit. It showed that Saruman, at the very last minute, after all the evil he had done, still hoped to return to Valinor, but was disowned and rejected by the Valar, pretty much diminishing this once-mighty spirit to nothingness.


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 8 2013, 2:33pm

Post #23 of 33 (324 views)
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Yes, he does [In reply to] Can't Post

He really is amazing to listen to when talking about Middle-earth. It would be fantastic to have a bite to eat with him and discuss things. On another note I am very much looking forward to my new characters book from Weta.



Elenorflower
Gondor


Apr 8 2013, 3:18pm

Post #24 of 33 (324 views)
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Sir Chris is perfect as Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post

well he was perfect in LOTR. I dont much like the dialogue they gave him in AUJ, He has a menacing presence, those eyes of his give me goosebumps, and his voice is hypnotizing. if anyone has ever seen him in The Wicker Man you will know what I mean.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 8 2013, 9:40pm

Post #25 of 33 (258 views)
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Wow. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Just. . .Frown Really? Wouldn't it have been sufficient and very accurate to just delete that "she possesses . . ." and kept all the rest. She IS one of the mighty among The Wise. That is enough. I don't think Saruman holds her in great reverence. Certainly Gandalf respects her deeply. . . but to suggest he reveres her, considering his origins. . . There is a fine line. And does he not also possess a Great Ring? And does not Elrond posess the greatest of The Three? And she is very mighty, but to keep implying that somehow is more holy than actual Holy Spirits . . . . it is lore blasphemey of a sort. The reason the Calaquendi became holy is because they dwelt amongst The Holy Spirits.

It was not Valinor that was intrinsically holy either. The Presence of The Ainur in that place MADE it holy. ALL the Holy energy in Middle-Earth flowed from The Ainur themselves, and lands and peoples who dwelt amongst them imbibed and reflected some of that residual power and sacredness. That line is really rather obnoxious, and is not really supported in the lore, unless one were to say "She knows somethings the Wizards don't they know some things that she doesn't etc." If she were superior to actual Holy Spirits, Eru and The Valar would not have bothered sending The Istari, they would have just sent a dream to Galadriel and let her, Glorfindel, Elrond and Gildor sort things out.

In Reply To
In the section on Galadriel, the narrative (which I'm tentatively attributing to Daniel Falconer as author of the book?) there is this curious statement: (bolding mine)




Quote

"Even among the wise of Middle-earth, the Lady Galadriel of Lothlorien is held in reverence and her words carry great weight. One of the oldest beings in the world, Galadriel has seen the mighty rise and fall, lands change shape and powers shift. Bearer of the Elven Ring of Power, Nenya, she possesses knowledge and enchantments unknown even to the Wizards and by her magic is the realm of Lorien kept safe from evil influence or intrusion."



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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