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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Some confusing (to me) issues about the Power(s) of the Ring and Isildur
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axewielder
The Shire

Mar 28 2013, 8:37pm

Post #101 of 130 (478 views)
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Hmmm....interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

Brethil:

I see what you are saying about the Maiar and music thing, but I think what the writer is trying to get at is that Tom's singing is unique in his inability to separate anything in this life from it, not that no other Maiar use spells and singing, for surely they do. But I think it ties to Tom's own commentary on his singing, "His songs are stronger..." Not that Tom is the only one who sings and who fights via songs/spells but that his songs are stronger and his songs are intimately tied to his being. But that is neither here nor there, for he lists many reasons why Tom cannot be Maiar and that is just one.

I understand what you are saying about the Ring being a "Maiar level" power but I think that is the wrong way to think about it. It increases the power of all who wear it according to their own power. So for instance, if a Valar wore it, he/she would be given its full power and he/she would be truly dangerous with it (theoretically of course) and that is why Hobbits are the perfect race for carrying it, they are weak and thus are less susceptible to its power. The more powerful you are, the more susceptible it you are, and that is what makes the story great, it is the little guy, the weakling, that is the hope of the world.

Since Sauron put part of his own spirit into the Ring, to wear it is to attach his corrupting soul to yours. So I largely view the ring like a cancer, it will corrupt, because by wearing it you are attaching your soul to the evil/corrupting soul of Sauron, it will corrupt anyone and everyone (except Tom who is outside of the world according to the Music theory) the only question is how long it will take. The individual strength of the bearer has to little to do with it except how much they can control some of its power, but the flip side is that the more powerful you are the more likely you are to be corrupted by it.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 2:56am

Post #102 of 130 (478 views)
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About Tom, and the Ring on small folk [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess my opinion right now (emphasis on right now! Its a work in progress!) is that he is something greater than Maiar, and closer to the Song; so I am attracted to the idea of him being the Music incarnate. I do not really insist on the one fuzzy point comparing song to spell (I think a specified arrangement of words and sounds would both count, song or spell - but then I have a very poor grasp of music in general!) All in all I am impressed with the idea; I want to give it some more research, and having received JRRT's Letters (to replace my old lost copy) earlier today I want to peruse further on the subject.
(Thanks again for the link, Axewielder.)

As far as the Ring goes, I am beginning to incline to the idea that there is a certain accidental nature to the invisibility (as Sauron never meant anyone else of any stature to have it except himself!) as well as its effects on non-powerful mortals, but I love the "little man" heroism that this also 'accidentally' allows. It rather agrees with the age of statement of Eru to the Valar in reference to attempting to supplant his goals, where he states that: "...this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." So Sauron in devising the Ring a such then allowed the weakest of mortals (whom I am sure he never gave a second thought to!!!!) to be the instrument of his demise - hoisted on his own petard, as it were. Elegant.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 3:07am

Post #103 of 130 (481 views)
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On Ents, Elves and Eriador [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I have a an interest in Tolkien's views of nature/environmentalism (mostly drawing from Evans and Dickerson's Ents, Elves, and Eriador) and I through that I have made the connection between doorways and relationships to nature.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I will look into reading this - I cannot get enough about the symbolisms we see in Tolkien. Thanks for the tip, Telain. We will have to continue this more once I have caught up to you, I think (and you have the time!) (Addendum: Just put it on my Kindle!Smile)

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 29 2013, 3:11am)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Mar 29 2013, 4:10am

Post #104 of 130 (472 views)
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All rings excluding the Three [In reply to] Can't Post

conferred invisibility as per my earlier post of letter 131. The One had all the powers of the others inculding invisibility, and this was added into all of them by Sauron, along with other undefined powers.

So many questions have been raised since my last post and a majority of it canbe answered by letter 131, not just what I wrote before. I might have to check with admin how much of it I can write and post.

I don't think Tom is the Music incarnate, that is what creations includng Arda and all within it. Tom is in the story but not of it, I just have to find the quote.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Mar 29 2013, 4:14am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 4:37am

Post #105 of 130 (496 views)
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True- I did not include the other Rings in the assessment. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
conferred invisibility as per my earlier post of letter 131. The One had all the powers of the others inculding invisibility, and this was added into all of them by Sauron, along with other undefined powers.

So many questions have been raised since my last post and a majority of it canbe answered by letter 131, not just what I wrote before. I might have to check with admin how much of it I can write and post.

I don't think Tom is the Music incarnate, that is what creations includng Arda and all within it. Tom is in the story but not of it, I just have to find the quote.






I remain an 'out' jury on Bombadil and his significance. "Letters" arrived this afternoon so I will be perusing it in full tomorrow.
If you find the quote about Bombadil, please do post it - Angelic

Incidentally - what is your thought about the disembodied possession of the Ring post - Numenor? I have read the Letter in which it is discussed, but JRRT sort of states "it happened" and moves on. Wondered about your take on it, and what if any significance you see in it.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 2:57pm

Post #106 of 130 (477 views)
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Am chuckling a bit today over Letters [In reply to] Can't Post

As I found some amusing comments by JRRT relating to Bombadil:

In # 153 : "I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it." (haha, if only he could see us all now! Tongue)

.....and a few line later ":he is then an "allegory", or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and their nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge."

(Was this the quote you had in mind Elendil?)

And in # 144 : "and even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

Enigma indeed Professor!

So I don't know now if I agree with any theories that I have read to date, fascinating thought they may be. I think Tom is a cipher and is MEANT to be that way; and I think though Song is his weapon, he is indeed something Outside of the First Music, perhaps already extant and not needing to be Created.

The invisibility statement in # 131 states that the One "contained all the powers of the others," and the powers listed are "rendering invisible the material body, and making the things of the invisible world visible" as you have graciously offered in previous posts. In Sil, in the chapter "of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" we read that the Dwarves were the exception - that they used the Seven "only for the getting of wealth." and "nor can they be turned to shadows." So in short (haha, too late!) the One and the sixteen Rings all had invisibility, the Three did not - but the Dwarves themselves because of their nature were not subject to that particular effect, and did not enter the Spirit world / become unseen.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Mar 30 2013, 3:01am

Post #107 of 130 (452 views)
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The disembodied Sauron taking the One Ring back to Middle Earth [In reply to] Can't Post

seems well within what he could do but within the actual mythologoy itself and the pains JRRT went to, to exert real limitations it seems a little strange and at odds with what I would expect myself in one of his stories. It is by no means the most fantastical aspect of the mythology it just sort of seems a little wrong.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 30 2013, 3:19am

Post #108 of 130 (480 views)
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i just had this image of sam neill [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i just had this image of sam neill cast as tom bombadil. and it got a whole lot more interesting.

tom bombadil as a character doesn't stymie the way he does many others.

i suppose, from the beginning, i just accepted him as his own creature, something unknown.

some things are intentionally left mysterious by tolkien (like bombadil), and others just confusing because he didn't tidy them up or come to his own conclusions (like the origins of the orcs).

a lot of the discussions we've been having call to my mind the (old) argument that a written work must stand on its own, vs.the real meaning of a work able to be found by delving into an author's unpublished notes, writings, and letters.

what is canon (in general)? is it canon if it's not in the work itself?

i love that so much more of tolkien's works and thoughts have been published than exist in the lotr, sil, and hobbit. but it does make for enigmas inside riddles wrapped in conundrums to try to piece the "truth" from all the available sources.

are we denying ourselves something that tolkien tried to give us in bombadil, by discussing all the minutia? if tolkien was trying to set tom up as unto himself, no answers needed, are we missing something of his universe by questioning, rather than accepting?

i'm just getting philosophical here. by no means am i trying to stifle discussion or suggest that questioning is ill-advised.

just musings.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Mar 30 2013, 3:21am)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Mar 30 2013, 3:52am

Post #109 of 130 (633 views)
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Brian Blessed = Tom Bombadil [In reply to] Can't Post

as an aside he is currently the star of the best advertisment on tv in New Zealand, who else could lend such gravitas and humor to the lines "A cup of tea! A cup of tea! Will that be the sum total of your celebration!?!? I say a cup of tea and...a gingernut."


telain
Rohan

Mar 30 2013, 2:02pm

Post #110 of 130 (391 views)
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excellent! [In reply to] Can't Post

I look forward to your thoughts on EE&E! And I look forward to being less busy -- with all the messages on the Board, I am going to have a bit of catching up to do...

I hope you enjoy the book!


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 3:29pm

Post #111 of 130 (414 views)
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Sam Neill - sweet picture Maciliel! [In reply to] Can't Post

But that aside - I do think that indeed is how JRRT intended us to perceive Bombadil. I think in the long run his love of nature and its elemental force denies a complete explanation. That's why those quotes in Letters are so amusing. I love the fact that any enigma is completely intentional. I am going to read the book that Telain posted about, as it deals with Tolkien's very intimate love of the natural world (after I finish Letters!)

And no, it isn't stifling at all to say that Tom "is who he is"; in a way I think its a sort of conclusion in itself especially with what the Professor has to say. Reading his own words leaves me feeling comfortable with with getting any tiny bit of information or significance - I just don't like to feel that I am 'missing' something!

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 30 2013, 3:30pm)


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Mar 30 2013, 3:36pm

Post #112 of 130 (408 views)
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Great retrofitting! [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the idea that invisibility is a sort of default setting that less powerful users get. It certainly seems that, while you're trying to use the Ring, the Ring is trying to use you.

We should also think of the evolution of Tolkiens ideas I think. Others know a lot more about this I know. Am I right in thinking that JRRT may first have thought up the invisibility bit first, as something Bilbo needed for the plot of the Hobbit - the idea of it being The One Ring coming later? In that case, invisibility would be a feature to retrofit into its new identity at The One Ring.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
Feel free to meddle in the affairs of noWizardMe by agreeing or disagreeing (politely...) with my posts! I may not be subtle, but at least I'm usually slow to anger...


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 3:40pm

Post #113 of 130 (415 views)
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And then there is Mr.Blessed's voice... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
as an aside he is currently the star of the best advertisment on tv in New Zealand, who else could lend such gravitas and humor to the lines "A cup of tea! A cup of tea! Will that be the sum total of your celebration!?!? I say a cup of tea and...a gingernut."




What a job he could do with all of Tom's songs.
I loved him as Hamlet Sr. in Branagh's version! (Will have to go inline to find the NZ ad - that sounds great! We are planning to see NZ in two years.)
(As far as the 'ghost Ring' I agree - an oddity! Smile )

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 3:56pm

Post #114 of 130 (483 views)
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Hello! I found a nice quote about that 'retrofit' idea N-W-M [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I like the idea that invisibility is a sort of default setting that less powerful users get. It certainly seems that, while you're trying to use the Ring, the Ring is trying to use you.

We should also think of the evolution of Tolkiens ideas I think. Others know a lot more about this I know. Am I right in thinking that JRRT may first have thought up the invisibility bit first, as something Bilbo needed for the plot of the Hobbit - the idea of it being The One Ring coming later? In that case, invisibility would be a feature to retrofit into its new identity at The One Ring.




In Letter #163 ""It is really given, and present in germ, from the beginning, though I had no conscious notion of what the Necromancer stood for (except ever-recurrent evil) in The Hobbit, nor of his connexion with the Ring. But if you wanted to go on from the end of The Hobbit I think the ring would be your inevitable choice as the link. If the you wanted a large tale, the Ring would at once acquire a capital letter; and the Dark Lord would immediately appear. As he did, unasked, on the hearth at Bag End when I arrived at that point. So the essential Quest started at once."

This is not the only reference to the evolution of the Ring and of the Necromancer, but its a great summation of his thoughts as the story grew. As we see so often with Tolkien, his internall consistency and linkages of ages and ideas are simply fantastic. I think its a sign of such a rich historical world living in his head, and that his ideals were consistent enough to be able to merge - even in ways he did not necessarily forsee. So I agree, there is a sort of 'retrofit' to the invisibility idea, which he so seamlessly blended later on.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 30 2013, 3:59pm)


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Mar 30 2013, 4:14pm

Post #115 of 130 (409 views)
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Great! [In reply to] Can't Post

I sometimes think its amazing how well Tolkien's work stands up to the consistency-checking, plot-holing and inferring we enjoy here! Given that he often seems to have started writing to see what would come, it's surprising that its not all riddled with inconsistencies!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
Feel free to meddle in the affairs of noWizardMe by agreeing or disagreeing (politely...) with my posts! I may not be subtle, but at least I'm usually slow to anger...


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 4:23pm

Post #116 of 130 (445 views)
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I agree! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I sometimes think its amazing how well Tolkien's work stands up to the consistency-checking, plot-holing and inferring we enjoy here! Given that he often seems to have started writing to see what would come, it's surprising that its not all riddled with inconsistencies!





Really it seems to have been a very organic process for him...I think that makes for the best tales, and that's why they last (and stand up to....shall we say...our affectionate scrutiny !!) Wink

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


CuriousG
Valinor


Mar 30 2013, 6:27pm

Post #117 of 130 (383 views)
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"our affectionate scrutiny " [In reply to] Can't Post

I love that expression! And agree with you both. There just aren't that many works with the grand scale, vast detail, and mostly-consistent consistency that Tolkien wrote, so having so much consistency, we always expect to find more in the few places we don't see it. And we look under every rug not because we're hostile sleuths, but because we enjoy the discovery.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 11:04pm

Post #118 of 130 (426 views)
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Glad you do CG! Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I love that expression! And agree with you both. There just aren't that many works with the grand scale, vast detail, and mostly-consistent consistency that Tolkien wrote, so having so much consistency, we always expect to find more in the few places we don't see it. And we look under every rug not because we're hostile sleuths, but because we enjoy the discovery.




Smile
And its like a life-long Easter egg hunt (timely!)

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 30 2013, 11:05pm)


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Mar 31 2013, 11:09am

Post #119 of 130 (591 views)
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Like to talk more about how Tolkien mainatined consistency? (link to a new thread) [In reply to] Can't Post

Who would like to talk more about how Tolkien maintained consistency? I made a thread for people like you and me

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
Feel free to meddle in the affairs of noWizardMe by agreeing or disagreeing (politely...) with my posts! I may not be subtle, but at least I'm usually slow to anger...


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Mar 31 2013, 3:42pm

Post #120 of 130 (356 views)
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also see... [In reply to] Can't Post

..Squire's magnificent post about consistency - has a lot of really interesting stuff about how the Ring's invisibility power

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
Feel free to meddle in the affairs of noWizardMe by agreeing or disagreeing (politely...) with my posts! I may not be subtle, but at least I'm usually slow to anger...


axewielder
The Shire

Apr 1 2013, 8:38pm

Post #121 of 130 (334 views)
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Tom as an enigma [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because Tom is an engima does not mean there is no answer for him, or that it is impossible to know, the definition of enigma is:
  1. A person or thing that is mysterious, puzzling, or difficult to understand.
  2. A riddle or paradox

Clearly the definition of enigma leaves room for their to be an explanation, Tolkien himself asks the question, "who is tom bombadil" three times, clearly he gave thought to it.

As far as the quote goes about Tom and Philosophizing goes we need to understand the context of the quote, he is responding to someone who thinks Tom is Eru. Tolkien clearly denies this. But just because we should not philosophize does not mean that Tolkien does not want the riddle to be searched out, for indeed he then goes on to explain tom as an "allegory" and an "examplar" of natural science. The music theory gives us an answer as to how this can be. How Tom can be the spirit of "pure" nature and science. being that Music and nature are closely tied to each other and given the near impossibility of Tom being a nature spirit and not being affected by the ring, this theory can adequately answer it. I think y'all should read it before you simply dismiss it...


Despite the Music being what creates Arda, there remains a distinction between the two. Notice in the creation story that it is not until after the music is sang and after the Valar and Maiar see the vision that Eru causes Arda to be. So to an extent there is both a unity to Arda and to the Music and there is a distinction. So the argument that "Arda is the incarnation of the music" totally misses the point of the music theory I wager.


(This post was edited by axewielder on Apr 1 2013, 8:44pm)


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 1 2013, 9:35pm

Post #122 of 130 (335 views)
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One thing is certain [In reply to] Can't Post

if we are to assume that the Wise at the Council of Elrond knew what they were talking about. They said that if Sauron conquered all else, even Bombadil would fall to him, "last as he was first," if I have the quote right. I don't see Iluvatar succumbing to Sauron by any measure, so I'd rule out Bombadil = Eru.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 2 2013, 4:02pm

Post #123 of 130 (316 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
if we are to assume that the Wise at the Council of Elrond knew what they were talking about. They said that if Sauron conquered all else, even Bombadil would fall to him, "last as he was first," if I have the quote right. I don't see Iluvatar succumbing to Sauron by any measure, so I'd rule out Bombadil = Eru.




I like your logic CG. Eru is not really 'first' as much as 'all'. First would refer to either: the thing or things created before anything else at all in the Universe OR the first thing to be placed on Arda. Since Tom himself refers to the Dark Lord as coming from 'outside' with purely Ardaic references (ie: making the paths before the Big People came) I feel like he is referring to being first within that plane of existence. 'Outside' can't really refer to the Creation because Melkor was part of the Music, and didn't come from outside of it - he was just discordant within in. And since he is hosting Little People in the form of Hobbits at the time of the 'Big People' reference, I think it is Elves and not Men whom he proceeded and whom he names as the Big People.

In #144 JRRT makes an interesting (especially looking back decades later) description of his view of pacifism, as "taking delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself", as well as "the means of power quite valueless" which he relates to Tom, and speaks of it as taking 'a vow of poverty' (quotes by JRRT). He also relates it to Rivendell, but points out that despite all its qualities there are things it cannot cope with (ie: the coming evil). And he finishes with "Ultimately, only the Victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron."

JRRT compares assessing Bombadil - twice - as "Zoology and Botany vs. Cattle-breeding or Agriculture." (#144 and #153) In #153 he also says "You must concentrate on some part, probably relatively small, of the World (Universe) , whether to tell a tale, however long, or to learn anything however fundamental - and therefore much will from that 'point of view' be left out, distorted on the circumference , or seem a discordant oddity. The power of the Ring over all concerned, even over the Wizards or Emissaries, is not a delusion - but it is not the whole picture, even of the then state and content of the part of the Universe."

So the reality of Tom is apparently a hint of a deeper understanding of Tolkien's essential conflict in LOTR. We aren't (necessarily) MEANT to superficially understand him by the author (as he has also stated, he is purposely enigmatic). The statement ultimately may mean that:
1. the reality of the Ring is the tip of a larger Universal iceberg.
2. Bombadil is a representation, a cipher (OUTSIDE of the mythology); perhaps of the best of humanity, the humblest and those seeking knowledge without power, and representation of all that would be destroyed by a totalitarian (uh-oh, modern allegory) regime?
3. Can we unite the two conclusions in that the Ring and Bombadil represent the opposite poles of empirical good and evil?

On this thought I intend to read and philosophize a bit more. Smile Thoughts?

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 2 2013, 4:04pm)


axewielder
The Shire

Apr 2 2013, 4:59pm

Post #124 of 130 (304 views)
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good thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

again I think this why the music theory does well. Tom is both intimate with the world and yet somehow outside of it being that the music is the means through which Arda was created. Melkor first introduces evil into the harmony of the Music so this is ultimate act of evil and where all evil in Arda comes from, Melkor. So would not say that the Ring is the pure representation of evil, but the latest representation of evil as Melkor and Sauron have done it in many ways. But Tom on the other hand represents the harmony and peace that should exist in the world but that sadly does not.

Tom is essentially a pacifist when it comes to Sauron and the Ring, but he is not so in regards to the Barrow and Old Man Willow. This is an odd contrast. But I like the explanation of him as pacifistic because it fits well with the Music theory as Tom being the music before melkor's discord was introduced, the two musics which formed out of it, and Rangerfromthennorth points out referenced in the Silmarillion.

But also, Tom's pacifism is not ideal in Middle Earth, for Tolkien writes somewhere that Tom needs the West to win in order to continue to exist. Pacifism is great, in an unfallen world, but sadly Middle Earth is fallen and it needs heroes like Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo those who do not like power and war but who see the need of it in the face of pure evil.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 2 2013, 7:01pm

Post #125 of 130 (297 views)
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Tom's sort of peace is perhaps not achievable by Men- but needs Men to exist [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
again I think this why the music theory does well. Tom is both intimate with the world and yet somehow outside of it being that the music is the means through which Arda was created. Melkor first introduces evil into the harmony of the Music so this is ultimate act of evil and where all evil in Arda comes from, Melkor. So would not say that the Ring is the pure representation of evil, but the latest representation of evil as Melkor and Sauron have done it in many ways. But Tom on the other hand represents the harmony and peace that should exist in the world but that sadly does not.

Tom is essentially a pacifist when it comes to Sauron and the Ring, but he is not so in regards to the Barrow and Old Man Willow. This is an odd contrast. But I like the explanation of him as pacifistic because it fits well with the Music theory as Tom being the music before melkor's discord was introduced, the two musics which formed out of it, and Rangerfromthennorth points out referenced in the Silmarillion.

But also, Tom's pacifism is not ideal in Middle Earth, for Tolkien writes somewhere that Tom needs the West to win in order to continue to exist. Pacifism is great, in an unfallen world, but sadly Middle Earth is fallen and it needs heroes like Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo those who do not like power and war but who see the need of it in the face of pure evil.




Indeed true Axewielder! That sort of idealistic peace that Tolkien seemed to represent with Bombadil needs heroes to allow it to thrive, once the world is marred. Its rather a luxury isn't it? Maybe that' one reason Tom is an Outsider - that sort of perfection is not an easy state for living humanoids to achieve.

And actually Tom is rather non-aggressive with even Old Man Willow - he may bark, but doesn't bite, and short of simply singing him back to somnolence doesn't even try to reform him. And they Tom allows him to simply coexist, when as he points out he could potentially freeze his marrow and blow his leaves away.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

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