|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 17 2007, 2:40pm
Post #1 of 32
(3082 views)
Shortcut
|
|
At the Sign of the Prancing Pony - I
|
Can't Post
|
|
Our travelers have reached an oasis of civilization in the town of Bree. Here our Hobbits hope to find news of Gandalf rest up for the next stage of their journey.
Bree is an anomaly in Middle-earth - a kind of Switzerland where men, hobbits, dwarves and the occasional elf meet and mingle without too much friction. We'll take a look at the geography of Bree and learn a little bit about the inhabitants. The hobbits are seeking someone, but find someone they didn't expect.
I have a hideous week with work, but I should be OK to post mornings and evenings. I'm travelling a lot, so if I miss a post it's because I'm sitting in an airport without internet access.
Here's our first look at the some of the people of Bree:
The Men of Bree were brown-haired, broad, and rather short, cheerful and independent: they belonged to nobody but themselves; ...
How are the Bree-men different from the Hobbits? Do you think there is some mingling of the species going on? Are hobbits even a different species? We've discussed this before when a hobbit was rumored to have taken a fairy wife - can Hobbits and Men (using the non-gender-specific meaning of Men) have children?
In those days no other Men had settled dwellings so far west, or within a hundred leagues of the Shire. But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers,...
...were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds.
Does this sound like Aragorn? We learned in The Shadow of the Past that Aragorn was the greatest traveler and huntsman that Gandalf knew. Did you think Aragorn was a Ranger?
What about Radagast? We know he knows much about birds and beasts. Could the Bree-folk be confusing the stories of the Rangers and Radagast?
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Dec 17 2007, 5:38pm
Post #2 of 32
(2541 views)
Shortcut
|
|
You could always post early if you need to.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I don't mind getting two posts at once, if that is easier for you. Heck, post everything today if you like. Or not. I'll understand if you are tied up. I have one or two things to attend to myself this week. 
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 17 2007, 6:31pm
Post #3 of 32
(2518 views)
Shortcut
|
keeping you busy!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Dec 17 2007, 8:36pm
Post #4 of 32
(2551 views)
Shortcut
|
Our travelers have reached an oasis of civilization in the town of Bree.
You don't consider Bombadil civilized?
How are the Bree-men different from the Hobbits? Do you think there is some mingling of the species going on? Are hobbits even a different species? We've discussed this before when a hobbit was rumored to have taken a fairy wife - can Hobbits and Men (using the non-gender-specific meaning of Men) have children?
Tolkien said in his letters that hobbits were human, but then so are Woses. I think hobbits are the same species as the Big Folk, but in Tolkien's world race is also a clear division between peoples, and hobbits are a different race. Theoretically hobbits could breed with men or elves -- but they haven't. The Tooks are just elf-friends -- although that's quite a distinction. Somewhere Tolkien says the Breelanders are in fact related to the Dunlendings, as unlikely as that may seem.
Rangers,... were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. Does this sound like Aragorn? We learned in The Shadow of the Past that Aragorn was the greatest traveler and huntsman that Gandalf knew. Did you think Aragorn was a Ranger?
Of course Aragorn was a Ranger. But the Breelanders have very little real knowledge about the Rangers.
What about Radagast? We know he knows much about birds and beasts. Could the Bree-folk be confusing the stories of the Rangers and Radagast?
I don't think the Breelanders know anything about Radagast, and they know very little about Rangers. Their stories about the mysterious powers of Rangers probably originate in ordinary woodsman skills, of which the Breelanders have very little. On the other hand, if Bard can understand a thrush in The Hobbit, then perhaps Aragorn can understand a few animals as well.
|
|
|
Penthe
Mithlond
Dec 18 2007, 2:09am
Post #5 of 32
(2489 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, I've sometimes vaguely wondered what would have happened if Elanor had developed a bijou little crush on a Gondorian prince during her stay there as a lady-in-waiting. No conclusions though.
I like the Breefolk. They seem almost indistinguishable from hobbits yarning in the pub in The Shire to my ear, but ever so slightly more tolerant of outsiders.
I quite like cheese, you know.
|
|
|
weaver
Gondolin
Dec 18 2007, 2:18am
Post #6 of 32
(2495 views)
Shortcut
|
I've always liked how the Shire folks think Bree folks are strange, and the Bree folks think Shire folks are strange -- and Butterbur apologizing for this whenever he makes a slip. They may be Bree men and hobbits, but those feelings are very 'human', and still true today...Tolkien was as good a student of human nature as he was of languages and ancient texts.
Weaver
|
|
|
Saelind
Menegroth
Dec 18 2007, 4:01am
Post #7 of 32
(2475 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Going to try to keep up this week
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
How are the Bree-men different from the Hobbits? Do you think there is some mingling of the species going on? Are hobbits even a different species? We've discussed this before when a hobbit was rumored to have taken a fairy wife - can Hobbits and Men (using the non-gender-specific meaning of Men) have children?
*I think the Hobbits and Bree-men are probably distantly related. Hobbits appear to be a specific phenotype of Men. They have some genetic material in common with Men but it expressed in such a way that they appear to be a separate race. I think it would possible for a hobbit and a human to reproduce but there might be problems with the pregnancy coming to term or being born completely healthy.
Does this sound like Aragorn? We learned in The Shadow of the Past that Aragorn was the greatest traveler and huntsman that Gandalf knew. Did you think Aragorn was a Ranger?
*I don’t remember making that connection the first time I read the book. It’s obvious now of course.
What about Radagast? We know he knows much about birds and beasts. Could the Bree-folk be confusing the stories of the Rangers and Radagast?
*I don’t think so. It doesn’t sound like Radagast went around people or civilized places very much. I think the tales are about the Rangers.
My question is if the Bree-Men are descendants of Men of the First Age, are they from one of the great Houses of Elf-friends? If so, Beor or Haleth? I don't think Hador since the House of Hador were golden-headed.
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Dec 18 2007, 6:05am
Post #8 of 32
(2469 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, Curious answered your question a few posts above
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
My question is if the Bree-Men are descendants of Men of the First Age, are they from one of the great Houses of Elf-friends? If so, Beor or Haleth? I don't think Hador since the House of Hador were golden-headed.
The Bree folk were not Edain, but connected rather to the Dunlendings. cf. Appendix F, "of Men".
I for one, do not find this connection really strange - I would expect Bree to consist of Northward immigrants at the time of the Kings of Arnor. Of course, as with Hobbits - it is likely that some different races mingled, and some folk in Bree were 'nobler' than the rest.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 18 2007, 6:35am
Post #9 of 32
(2474 views)
Shortcut
|
|
However, App. F "Of Men" is perhaps supplemented by...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"Of Dwarves and Men" from The Peoples of Middle-earth.
The Bree folk were not Edain, but connected rather to the Dunlendings. cf. Appendix F, "of Men".
In PoMe, Tolkien writes that the Dunlendings were descended from "kin of the Folk of Haleth".
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 17-23 for "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony".
(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Dec 18 2007, 6:36am)
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 18 2007, 7:37am
Post #10 of 32
(2477 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"Island" is better than "oasis"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
An oasis implies that it is something that is surrounded by something very harsh, and I don't get the impression that the wilderlands of Eriador are particularly harsh, at least not with the Rangers out and about.
Now, Men
Men, the Atani or Second People, include Hobbits and a bunch of other races. We know that the High Men are capable of breeding with the Elves, the Quendi, or First People. We can debate as long as we want on why this is so, although my theory remains that the First House of the Edain were originally meant to be Elves in the Music (which someone altered), and that as such they are more like Elves than any other people of Men. Effectively they were Elves in all ways but immortality.
Can Hobbits breed with the Big Folk? I'm sure it's possible. There might be some mechanical difficulties, fitting the various pieces of plumbing together, but from a genetic standpoint I cannot imagine that there would be any problems. Four feet is a tall Hobbit but it happens, and four feet is a short Human but it also happens, especially in a largely barley-nourished population like the Breelanders probably are. And, knowing Humans and their sexual habits, if it's possible, then people have done it! 
*
I honestly hadn't made the connection with Aragorn until I had read the story for the second time, and already knew full well who the Rangers are, so this question is lost on me.
The question that comes up is what about the females of the Rangers' people. This passage implies that the women are Rangers as well, but I'm sure Tolkien never imagined that very many of the women of the Dúnedain were anything other than displaced housewives. Perhaps a few were hunters and warriors themselves, but it would have been a tiny fraction, an unrealistically tiny fraction.
As usual, Tolkien doesn't give thought to the demographics of his world, and is now probably thrashing about in his grave due to the conclusions that he has inadvertently led us to!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Dec 18 2007, 12:59pm
Post #11 of 32
(2465 views)
Shortcut
|
made references to rejoining her people, but we never find out where the Rangers live when they aren't wandering. It's one of the secrets of Middle-earth that the hobbits don't discover, and that Tolkien does not reveal. But I don't think he meant to imply that all the wives were Rangers just like their husbands, or else we would have seen some of them later in the book.
For me the bigger problem with Ranger wives is whether they were all pure-blood Dunedain women, which seems unlikely considering the small numbers of Rangers. Were any of them from Bree? Are there other peoples out there we do not meet in LotR? Did the Rangers make long excursions to the south or east to find their wives? Or were the northern Rangers seriously inbred?
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Dec 18 2007, 3:22pm
Post #12 of 32
(2429 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Oh my, I wonder what Brandir would think of Butterbur!//
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
visualweasel
Nargothrond
Dec 18 2007, 4:09pm
Post #13 of 32
(2450 views)
Shortcut
|
What about Radagast? We know he knows much about birds and beasts. Could the Bree-folk be confusing the stories of the Rangers and Radagast?
It isn't too likely, I'll admit, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility quite as emphatically as others. Even though Gandalf observes that Radagast was "never a traveller, unless driven by great need," and even though Radagast clearly has no knowledge of The Shire by name, he was nevertheless wandering not far from Bree. Perhaps he had been in those parts, or a little east or them, in years past. Moreover, the Wizards arrived in Middle-earth around the year TA 1000; and Bree was settled not too long after, in roughly TA 1300. I don't think we know when Radagast settled in Rhosgobel, but one would think he did his fair share of wandering in the west of Middle-earth in his first few hundred years. It could have been the strife in Arnor that drove him east, and this would explain his ignorance of The Shire, founded some 300 years after Bree. But if he wandered in the area for even a hundred years, I could see a very dim memory of him taking root among the Breelanders, conflated with that of the Rangers. And since the Rangers never left, I could see the Breelanders supposing Radagast was still somewhere about, too. Such rumors might take a very long time to die out. (The sound-similarity between Radagast and Ranger is a red herring, but tantalizing just the same.) All this is pure conjecture. But when it comes to Radagast, there's little but. ;)
As a side note regarding the Breelanders' notion that Rangers could "understand the languages of birds and beasts," this recalls to mind the bird-calls of the Rangers of Ithilien (looking ahead the The Two Towers). One imagines the Dunedain of the North used the same kinds of calls. And they would be easily taken by simple folk as actual bird-language, no?
And then there is the possibility, mentioned already by others, that the Rangers actually could communicate with some of the local flora and fauna, as Róac and the Ravens of Erebor could communicate with the Dwarves, and the Men of Dale could understand the language of the Thrushes. This is a bit of a straw-man argument, though, considering how The Hobbit predated the whole concept of Bree and its inhabitants. The Hobbit was much more a "talking-animal" story at heart that The Lord of the Rings. But worth mentioning as a plausible story-internal explanation.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
(This post was edited by visualweasel on Dec 18 2007, 4:10pm)
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Dec 18 2007, 9:07pm
Post #14 of 32
(2454 views)
Shortcut
|
|
But whatever the truth may be,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I wouldn't consider Breelanders experts on Rangers.
Note that the Nazgul can apparently communicate with animals who spy for them. And Saruman can apparently communicate with the Crebain. And Gwaihir communicates with people quite well. We don't see Shadowfax speak Common, but he seems to understand it well enough. Then again, so does Bill the Pony. And other ponies seem to understand Bombadil, as we have just seen. Then there's that fox in the Shire. And surely if trees are sentient, animals should be as well.
In short, in LotR Tolkien is more subtle about animal intelligence than in The Hobbit, but I wouldn't be suprised if Rangers could communicate with birds and other animals. But perhaps there aren't any sheep and dogs serving dinner, as in Beorn's house in The Hobbit!
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 18 2007, 10:27pm
Post #16 of 32
(2441 views)
Shortcut
|
The Grey Company are not described in much detail, only that their leader Halbarad is even named, and they are the only Rangers of the North apart from Aragorn that we meet in LotR. How do we know that there aren't any women in that company?
However, as I said in my previous post, I am quite certain that Tolkien never meant to imply that this was the case. He believed that it was out of place, if not outright sinful, for a woman to do such a thing. The women of Arnor are just a hole in the continuity Tolkien's legendarium that does not fit with what we know. There are many such holes.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Dec 18 2007, 10:42pm
Post #17 of 32
(2428 views)
Shortcut
|
Galadriel was known to compete with the boys in her youth, according to UT, I believe, and Luthien was quite the adventurer. And of course there is Eowyn. And Haleth. And those are just the most prominent characters. Presumably there are many less prominent shieldmaidens we don't hear about, because they are not queens or princesses.
So, come to think of it, perhaps there were women among the many unnamed Rangers! As well as the far more numerous unnamed Rohirrim and Gondorians. And maybe at the Battle of Bywater as well.
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 19 2007, 12:27am
Post #18 of 32
(2419 views)
Shortcut
|
and indeed, that's how I like to envision it. Certainly the Grey Company and the militia at Bywater had a number of females among their number by my count.
Still, Tolkien implies that Lúthien and Éowyn settle down and become housewives after they get married. He also has virtually everybody being very surprised to find that *gasp* a woman rode with the Rohirrim, which also implies that Tolkien was thinking that Éowyn was likely unique, at least among all of the women of her time. After all, if the Witch King knows that women on battlefields are something that happens occasionally, would he be so cocky towards Éowyn, or, upon learning that she is female, would he be so uncertain?
I suggest that Tolkien himself may have had some conflicting believes about this: on one hand, he obviously regarded men and women as equals, as (fallen) children of God, and on the other hand, he clearly saw them as having different places and aptitudes.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Dec 19 2007, 1:20am
Post #19 of 32
(2457 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Married women are a different matter.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But Tolkien did write about lots of strong women. If the percentage of his female characters who fight (or, like Morwen and Nienor, foolishly challenge a dragon) is anything close the the percentage among the general population, I would say there have to be some anonymous female footsoldiers.
Actually, the hobbits themselves exhibit some characteristics which might be considered stereotypically feminine. They are perceived to be weak and soft, and yet prove their worth, even against the Witch-king and Shelob and Smaug and the Ring. It's no accident that Merry ended up riding with Eowyn. In a world where faith and humility matter more than brute strength, why couldn't women do their part? Faramir, too, is accused by his father of being soft in comparison to Boromir. Aragorn proves he is king not by fighting but by healing, and the nurse Ioreth is the one who reminds Gandalf of that prophecy, as well as the one who knows about athelas.
I think Tolkien would have drawn the line at mothers on the front line, or at women giving up mothering for soldiering. And because of that in times of peace women would not fight. But in times of crisis, the way Tolkien's world works, all other things being equal, there's no reason a woman couldn't accomplish as much or more than a man.
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 19 2007, 3:10am
Post #20 of 32
(2399 views)
Shortcut
|
The Breefolk do have that rustic, quaint quality about them, don't they: like larger-sized Hobbits, just the size of the tankard is different!
It's hard to imagine there not being some intermarriage, especially when the two peoples inhabit the same small area. I wonder whether they'd have a special term for the children born to such a union - or wait and see how tall they grew? Maybe that's why they just use "Big Folk" and "Little Folk", rather than "Men" and "Hobbits"!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 19 2007, 8:10pm
Post #21 of 32
(2439 views)
Shortcut
|
In a world where faith and humility matter more than brute strength, why couldn't women do their part?
No reason at all, which I think is part of the reason for Tolkien's internal dilemma. Part of his background beliefs regarded the two as equal and other parts regarded the two as distinctly unequal (although not necessarily in a superior-inferior sort of way).
I think Tolkien would have drawn the line at mothers on the front line, or at women giving up mothering for soldiering. And because of that in times of peace women would not fight.
HA - since when is Middle Earth at peace?
Just kidding - there are periods in Middle Earth's history in which military peace is enforced by magic. Lúthien, for example, doesn't need to fight physically to keep Morgoth's armies out of Ossirand because she can do that with the Silmaril's power, and likewise I get the impression that Galadriel was able to keep Sauron's armies from invading her realm through most of the Third Age using Nenya. So here we have two women, now mothers, who put themselves in physical danger fighting for good earlier in their lives, but who no longer need to do so against the threats they face currently. However, the point stands most peoples in Middle Earth is in a state of war with someone essentially continually. I'm sure Galadriel still has her sword, and still practices with it regularly, her marital and maternal status not withstanding!
I'm guessing that Tolkien saw parenting as being more of a female deal than a male deal, although good, solid relationships between fathers and sons are an important theme in his books, and similarly dysfunctional relationships between fathers and sons are looked down on very heavily. Denethor's favoritism for Boromir is not portrayed favorably, and despite Findulias' being dead, it's not obvious that the situation would be very much different if she were still alive.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Gondolin
Dec 20 2007, 7:37pm
Post #22 of 32
(2401 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Where's their sense of history?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If the Bree Men are "the original inhabitants and ... descendants of the first Men that ever wandered into the West..." how come they don't know the whole sorry saga of the Northern Kingdom and have some relevant theories of the Rangers?
There's a better excuse for Hobbits... they have reason to be shy and secretive due to their minute size. And doesn't everyone consider folks who're "not from around here" as Outsiders?
Son of Elizabeth in Frodo's tree
March, 2007
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Dec 20 2007, 8:28pm
Post #23 of 32
(2389 views)
Shortcut
|
despite living on a crossroads. They do have legends about Fornost and the King, as we will learn later, but they don't take those legends seriously. And they just don't care about the Rangers, so they don't bother to investigate.
I mean, have you asked a high school student to name states and capitals lately? Or an adult, for that matter? And we live in days where people travel by car and plane. The Breelanders, for the most part, never left Bree and the nearby farmlands, just as Sam had never been more than a day's walk from home.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 29 2007, 6:13pm
Post #24 of 32
(2352 views)
Shortcut
|
The statement that the Bree-men “belonged to nobody but themselves” sounds like Goldberry’s comment that the “trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves”.
Do you think there is some mingling of the species ... a hobbit was rumored to have taken a fairy-wife…
Yes, that rumor appeared in the opening pages of The Hobbit. In the first edition, the possibility of a goblin-wife was also mentioned: the only reference in Tolkien’s writings to female orcs?
"Miscegenation" between Hobbits and Orcs is the subject of Andy Duncan’s short story, “Senator Bilbo”, named for an actual segregationist American politician, in Seekers of Dreams, a collection of short stories edited by Douglas Anderson. (The collection includes “Green Hill Country” by Verlyn Flieger, that you saw as a reading in Milwaukee before it was published.) Someone should edit the wikipedia entry to add this reference to those by Pete Seeger, William Styron, and Gentleman’s Agreement.
Does this sound like Aragorn?
I think “strange powers of sight and hearing” foretells the Númenórean hills, Amon Law and Amon Hen.
In what sense are the Rangers “darker” than the Bree-men?
Here it says that Rangers travel south and east, but much later Gandalf will tell Butterbur that they also go north; why do we not learn that now?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
We're on hiatus Dec. 24-Jan. 6 for the holidays.
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 29 2007, 6:14pm
Post #25 of 32
(2354 views)
Shortcut
|
Of course Aragorn is a Ranger.
I took Entmaiden’s point to be a reminder that Tolkien has already introduced Aragorn, when Gandalf described him in “The Shadow of the Past".
A question for dernwyn, squire, or someone else fluent in the LotR drafts: when did Tolkien add Gandalf’s reference there to having received aid in his search for Gollum?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
We're on hiatus Dec. 24-Jan. 6 for the holidays.
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".
|
|
|
|
|
1
