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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Observations about Azog and what is to come
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nhui06
Rivendell

Mar 30 2013, 3:33am

Post #1 of 42 (826 views)
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Observations about Azog and what is to come Can't Post

Just finished watching AUJ for the 3rd time, and here are some of my thoughts:

- Thorin mentioned twice that he thought Azog had died. Now Thorin may be stubborn but he is no idiot. It may have very well been that Azog had died, or was critically wounded, but the Necromencer may have healed him. Given the Goblin King laughed at Throin to think that Azog was destroyed. Azog was given a re-design by PJ for a reason, and he is not just a Lurtz. I feel pretty confident that Azog is actually an agent of the Necromencer now. Look at the last shot of him as the eagles carried away the Dwarves. He had a 'Uh-oh' face, not an angry one. Azog also has someone bigger to report to.

- So aside from revenge, why else does Azog need to stop the Dwarves? A hint was dropped when Gandalf asked Throin twice who did Thorin tell about his quest? Throin said no one. Now let us look at the clip from the preview of DOS. If you catch the end, you see the mad dwarf fighting Gandalf in Dol Guldur scene from the first trailer, which may mean they are keeping that scene. Let us assume that is Thrain. Bolg had tortured that information out of Thrain, and is probably now a crazy slave for the Necromencer. Somewhere in the beginning, we will see a scene between Gandalf and Thrain, where Thrain gives Gandalf the key and map and tells him to find Thorin (probably in Moria). Hence, Thrain probably gave this information away during the torture. Like Gandalf predicted, the Necromencer probably wants Smaug for his own, so he does not want Thorin to plot against the dragon.

What do you guys think?


GiantMushroomBear
Bree

Mar 30 2013, 3:45am

Post #2 of 42 (436 views)
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I quite like this idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

It adds a looming sense of danger to the story, as well as a link between the dwarves' story arc and Gandalf's.


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Mar 30 2013, 3:51am

Post #3 of 42 (454 views)
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I agree about Azog, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I too believe that Azog was resurrected by Sauron, aka The Necromancer, but we'll just have to wait and see if that's what PJ & Co. have done.

However...my prevailing thought about stuff like this is increasingly becoming: Why?!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm no purist (far from it, as many of you know). But the more I've thought about all this stuff concerning Azog, the Nazgul, Mirkwood, etc. - the more I'm confused as to what the hell PJ, Fran, & Philippa are thinking. Was not the whole point of expanding The Hobbit into 2 films (and then 3 films) to tell more of Tolkien's full mythology? Why then, have they seemingly gone through great pains to essentially rewrite the history of Middle Earth?

I don't want to give the impression that I didn't enjoy AUJ. I like it a lot actually, but almost none of the material added to the narrative of the book is in keeping with Tolkien's cannon mythology. It's mostly cut and paste from the appendices, moving things that happened over the course of an Age to the time period of the Erebor quest - and then the rest of it is essentially made up by the screenwriters.

I don't know why this didn't hit me harder when I saw the film in theaters - but the more I've delved into the details of the film's narrative, the more it's beginning to irk me. With a couple small exceptions, the writers were incredibly loyal to Tolkien's mythology and backstory in The Lord of the Rings - which ensured that, even when things in the narrative were changed, it still felt like the story was taking place in Tolkien's Middle Earth. I just find it so shocking that they're taking so many liberties this time around.

My apologies for the rant. I realize many of you have probably beat this subject to death over the past many months.

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Mar 30 2013, 3:58am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 5:37am

Post #4 of 42 (412 views)
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Azog. . . badly wounded, dragged off to The Balrog it would seem (Moria gate, Unholy fire) [In reply to] Can't Post

, sent of to Dol Guldur. . . the Dark Powers of Middle Earth are in collusion it would seem, but who the hell knows how Peter et al will decide to suggest it panned out.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Durin's Folk
The Shire


Mar 30 2013, 2:00pm

Post #5 of 42 (298 views)
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I agree with you but... [In reply to] Can't Post

Disagree in the following points:

1- I believe Azog survived to it's wounds without dying or having to be resurrected. Losing a limb is not a deadly wound even when medical advancement was non existent people would survive.

2- I believe the expression Azog makes when he sees the eagles arrive is not a 'Uh-ho' expression but rather a 'What Da Fck!?'

Imagine : for many years of searching for vengeance you finaly come accross the Dwarf who humiliated you and criplled you in the process in front of all your men (or orcs).

You defeat him, he is about to get his head chopped off, then a little Hobbit comes and saves him.

Then the Hobbit stands against a dozen warg riders and Azog and a handful of Dwarves come and save him again.

Then Azog gets himself in what seems to be a 1 on 1 against Bilbo for the rights on Thorin and the ""//$%%&*%*?? EAGLES COME! WTF! $"$%/*?$/(*(*

"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."


Durin's Folk
The Shire


Mar 30 2013, 2:00pm

Post #6 of 42 (291 views)
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I agree with you but... [In reply to] Can't Post

Disagree in the following points:

1- I believe Azog survived to it's wounds without dying or having to be resurrected. Losing a limb is not a deadly wound even when medical advancement was non existent people would survive.

2- I believe the expression Azog makes when he sees the eagles arrive is not a 'Uh-ho' expression but rather a 'What Da Fck!?'

Imagine : for many years of searching for vengeance you finaly come accross the Dwarf who humiliated you and criplled you in the process in front of all your men (or orcs).

You defeat him, he is about to get his head chopped off, then a little Hobbit comes and saves him.

Then the Hobbit stands against a dozen warg riders and Azog and a handful of Dwarves come and save him again.

Then Azog gets himself in what seems to be a 1 on 1 against Bilbo for the rights on Thorin and the ""//$%%&*%*?? EAGLES COME! WTF! $"$%/*?$/(*(*

"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."


nhui06
Rivendell

Mar 30 2013, 2:10pm

Post #7 of 42 (302 views)
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Rights to materials [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Peter Jackson is under a lot of restraint from staying true to the backstories because he does not have the rights to things like Unfinished Tales. He only has the appendix in LOTR to serve as a guideline, but he cannot dive too deep into the history of Middle Earth found Toilken's work. So I think yes he really wants to tell more, but he has to make up his own stuff to fill in the blanks. Watching the LOTR docs, it also appears that Peter wants to make these films more accessible to the general audience, so that often means streamlining the storyline (which he did for the history of Dwarves; making it all into one batlle sequence), and narrowing down the timelines.


nhui06
Rivendell

Mar 30 2013, 2:21pm

Post #8 of 42 (297 views)
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Good points [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps Azog did survive his injuries, but he must have been weaken for sometime. I also do not see the Orcs being healers; usually when an orc is injured, others will jump on him to eat him and finish him off. Maybe Azog just stuck that metal claw into his arm like the beast he is who knows...We do not know what happened to him and the orcs in Moria; maybe there will be a flashback to explain this with Thrain and Gandalf.
In regards to the facial expression of Azog, I guess that was my interpretation.

I hold more firmly that Azog is connected to the Necromencer; the tip off to me was when he made reference to Thrain and that he reeked of fear. This could not have been during the battle of Azanulbizar since Azog was essentially defeated, and we never saw Thrain near Azog at the time. We know from the toys that Bolg is the jailer and torturer of Dol Guldur, and we know Thrain ends up in Dol Guldur as a mad dwarf. I think it is a good guess that Bolg got information of Thrain and Thorin's quest through torturer, and relayed that information to Azog. But why? I do not believe we will see reference of Bolg being Azog's son the film; it will be too weird of a concept to the general audience that orcs have kids... As such, it is reasonable to assume that Azog will be connected with the Necromencer at some point.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Mar 30 2013, 3:53pm

Post #9 of 42 (288 views)
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Thrain / Dol-Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

but you do realize Gandalf being given the key happenend way before these current events with the necromancer/Azog. Also, Gandalf was shocked when Radagast told him about what is going on at Dol-Guldur.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Mar 30 2013, 7:22pm

Post #10 of 42 (251 views)
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Zombie Azog [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I too believe that Azog was resurrected by Sauron, aka The Necromancer, but we'll just have to wait and see if that's what PJ & Co. have done.

Good lord, I hope they haven't done this. If Azog turns out to be a reanimated "zombie", I'm done with these films.


cats16
Valinor

Mar 30 2013, 8:07pm

Post #11 of 42 (244 views)
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I just don't know... [In reply to] Can't Post

Honestly I feel that the only thing I am confident about is that I must see the next film before I can be certain about any of this. I just feel that we don't quite have enough information presented to us to know exactly what Azog's role will play once the Dol Guldur subplot is expanded upon. Once his relationship with Bolg is firmly shown (if there is any at all), that will be a starting point.

This is where I see the frustration from people who are upset about changes to Tolkien lore. We don't really know where some of this added material is going, because there aren't really any details from the books to help us guess. So this presents a challenge when talking about Azog. Because he's dead in book lore, we have no idea how the filmmakers will further deviate from this or try to rationalize the changes in the next films.

I know that speculation is what this thread is about, and I'm all for it. For me, though, I feel that I don't even have the confidence to start speculating about Azog right now.


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Mar 30 2013, 9:15pm

Post #12 of 42 (226 views)
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Possibility [In reply to] Can't Post

That the script writers are just using Bolg's name and that he has nothing to do with Azog. We know that Azog is Gundabad orc and that it was those orcs that end up at BoFA. So perhaps that is all there is -- Azog is the chief of the Gundabad orcs. He is out freelancing after having heard that Thorin is on the move. Eventaully he will go back to Mt. Gundabad rally his orcs and show up at BoFA.

It is possible that since PJ decided to show Azanulbizar that he chose Azog as his chief antagonist for the entire 3 movies so as not to add new characters. And since Azog is describe as tall in the Appendices PJ went with that a fleshed (so to speak) him out as the Big Bad.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Mar 30 2013, 9:19pm

Post #13 of 42 (227 views)
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Bolg.... [In reply to] Can't Post

it seems that he might not be the main villain after all, if Azog survives the next film.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 9:44pm

Post #14 of 42 (236 views)
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Not nearly as much as one might think. The OVERWHELMING majority of [In reply to] Can't Post

what is found regarding The Council, Gandalf and The Necromancer is in either The Fellowship of The Ring text itself, or in The Appendices. Unfinished Tales and Silmarillion just give more quotes.

Durin's Bane, the flights from Moria and Lothlorien, Thror's Great Ring and the madness it caused in him, Thrain's inheritence of the Ring and the ill fortune that accompanied it, Gandalf's ventures to Dol Guldur, his fears and eventual certainty that Sauron was mustering to launch a great war, and that his intended first strike was meant to be against The Elves, the Wizard's desire to prevent this by striking Sauron first, The Dwarves war for vengeance, their inability to reclaim Moria because of the continued presence of The Demon Lord, all of these things are present and fully available to the team . . . they just decided they knew better and did things differently.

In Reply To
I think Peter Jackson is under a lot of restraint from staying true to the backstories because he does not have the rights to things like Unfinished Tales. He only has the appendix in LOTR to serve as a guideline, but he cannot dive too deep into the history of Middle Earth found Toilken's work. So I think yes he really wants to tell more, but he has to make up his own stuff to fill in the blanks. Watching the LOTR docs, it also appears that Peter wants to make these films more accessible to the general audience, so that often means streamlining the storyline (which he did for the history of Dwarves; making it all into one batlle sequence), and narrowing down the timelines.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 9:50pm

Post #15 of 42 (218 views)
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I don't know why everyone is so delicate about orcs having children. [In reply to] Can't Post

We won't have to see Azog MAKING Bolg, for Heaven's sake. Apes, and badgers, hippopotami and rhinoceri, bats and hynea and many other savage and less than lovely looking things have babies, mothers and fathers. . . it would be more bizzare for Orcs NOT to have parents. I hate pointless prudishness. If Azog can be shown throwing Thror's head in a movie viewed by upwards of five million pre-adolescent children, we can have it mentioned that Bolg is Azog's son, just like in the novel. And they can both still be connected to Sauron, and to the Balrog of Moria, and to whatever other Demonic servants of Morgoth might be lurking about doing evil at the time.

In Reply To
Perhaps Azog did survive his injuries, but he must have been weaken for sometime. I also do not see the Orcs being healers; usually when an orc is injured, others will jump on him to eat him and finish him off. Maybe Azog just stuck that metal claw into his arm like the beast he is who knows...We do not know what happened to him and the orcs in Moria; maybe there will be a flashback to explain this with Thrain and Gandalf.
In regards to the facial expression of Azog, I guess that was my interpretation.

I hold more firmly that Azog is connected to the Necromencer; the tip off to me was when he made reference to Thrain and that he reeked of fear. This could not have been during the battle of Azanulbizar since Azog was essentially defeated, and we never saw Thrain near Azog at the time. We know from the toys that Bolg is the jailer and torturer of Dol Guldur, and we know Thrain ends up in Dol Guldur as a mad dwarf. I think it is a good guess that Bolg got information of Thrain and Thorin's quest through torturer, and relayed that information to Azog. But why? I do not believe we will see reference of Bolg being Azog's son the film; it will be too weird of a concept to the general audience that orcs have kids... As such, it is reasonable to assume that Azog will be connected with the Necromencer at some point.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 9:52pm

Post #16 of 42 (220 views)
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He wasn't shocked. It didn't come across as shock, more as [In reply to] Can't Post

something vaguely suspected but void of evidence, and now the possibility of evidence is being presented.

In Reply To
but you do realize Gandalf being given the key happenend way before these current events with the necromancer/Azog. Also, Gandalf was shocked when Radagast told him about what is going on at Dol-Guldur.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


cats16
Valinor

Mar 30 2013, 9:54pm

Post #17 of 42 (210 views)
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AO, I'm curious... [In reply to] Can't Post

Because you, honestly, are much more well-versed in the Appendices than I am (I mean this in all seriousness;not mockingly by any means) I'm curious as to how you are anticipating the DG subplot & Azog to connect and develop. I'm asking you because PJ & Co. have been known to try to cover up their tracks (so to speak) when deviating from Tolkien by bringing in/merging other events and facts from ME to compensate.

I hope you understand where I'm trying to go with this question. I guess the simplest way to say it is: How do you see this all playing out? Smile


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 10:00pm

Post #18 of 42 (211 views)
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I wish I knew. I would suspect Azog and Bolg to be under the influence if not [In reply to] Can't Post

the direct orders of The Dark Power in Dol Guldur. I would also be interested to see if Azog's survival had anything to do with The Dark Power in Moria, and if there is any hint at any level of tacit collusion between those two Evil Maiar (I hope the latter gets a little more note in relation to Moria having been brought into these films anyway).

I DO hope Bolg is acknowledged as Azog's son (we do see Bolg at Azanulbizzar getting chopped by Dwalin, so his survival and re-surfacing also has some questions attatched), and I HOPW Azog meets his end either in the second film or early in the third, giving Bolg vengeance motivation. Yet, I do not know if this will happen. As has been said, Peter et al have derailed SO far off the beaten path and track laid by the novels by keeping Azog alive, that there is really no telling where they will go with him and evertyhing that MIGHt relate with him.

In Reply To
Because you, honestly, are much more well-versed in the Appendices than I am (I mean this in all seriousness;not mockingly by any means) I'm curious as to how you are anticipating the DG subplot & Azog to connect and develop. I'm asking you because PJ & Co. have been known to try to cover up their tracks (so to speak) when deviating from Tolkien by bringing in/merging other events and facts from ME to compensate.

I hope you understand where I'm trying to go with this question. I guess the simplest way to say it is: How do you see this all playing out? Smile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lio
Lorien


Mar 30 2013, 10:04pm

Post #19 of 42 (213 views)
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I blame the Isengard "mud pit" scenes from the original trilogy [In reply to] Can't Post

People who are not familiar with the books might have simply assumed that's the way all Orcs multiply. But at the same time, we are meant to believe that they're corrupted Elves which already seems kind of contradictory. (Can you imagine Elves being born this way? Well, I think some fangirls might appreciate a naked mud-covered Legolas. Tongue)

Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah!

Orcs are mammals!

Gosh, I'm tempted to put this in my signature now. Laugh

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


cats16
Valinor

Mar 30 2013, 10:10pm

Post #20 of 42 (197 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting that, earlier, I came to the same conclusion- it's more or less impossible to guess. But of course, I was mostly going off of TH and my memory of what's in LOTR. The fact that you can't draw much of a conclusion, though, shows me how much has actually been affected by these alterations.

Thanks, always appreciate your insight!


(This post was edited by cats16 on Mar 30 2013, 10:12pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 10:14pm

Post #21 of 42 (202 views)
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THANK YOU!!! And the fans who are into the [In reply to] Can't Post

more arousing possibilities would probably still prefer the Elves copulating in the usual manner rather than emerging from mud-pits. I would LOVE that as your signature. Soo true, an end to all this "they won't want to acknowledge that orcs can have parents" bunk. The Dwarves do not spring up full grown out of the ground, and orcs don't either, despite the Lurtz foolishness.

In Reply To
People who are not familiar with the books might have simply assumed that's the way all Orcs multiply. But at the same time, we are meant to believe that they're corrupted Elves which already seems kind of contradictory. (Can you imagine Elves being born this way? Well, I think some fangirls might appreciate a naked mud-covered Legolas. Tongue)

Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah!

Orcs are mammals!

Gosh, I'm tempted to put this in my signature now. Laugh


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lio
Lorien


Mar 30 2013, 10:29pm

Post #22 of 42 (191 views)
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I think it's likely that there's an Azog/Necromancer connection [In reply to] Can't Post

For the reasons you mentioned, that is Azog's reference to Thrain's fear and Bolg's presence at Dol Guldur. At the same time, I think Azog is pursuing Thorin for personal reasons (he swore to wipe out the line of Durin) so it's difficult to say how far his alliance with the Necromancer goes. Maybe the Necromancer is also after Thorin for some reason, and he tipped Azog off to Thorin's whereabouts by having Thrain tortured at Dol Guldur? Thus the link between them would be Bolg.

Also, I don't know to what extent the Azog/Bolg father/son connection will be emphasized in the movies, but I think it was mentioned on the packaging of Bolg's action figure that Azog is his father. So it still seems to be canon in the movies, even if it hasn't been brought up yet. (Fili and Kili being Thorin's nephews wasn't mentioned in AUJ either!)

Oh yeah, a final nitpick! In the books the Orcs are said to have effective medicine, so I don't see Azog's wound being that much of a setback to him. Just stick a fork in it, and it's good to go! Wink

As well, I think the whole Orcs eating each other is a movie invention. In the books, the accusation is used as an insult. But maybe I shouldn't try to mix book and movie canon. Tongue

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 10:31pm

Post #23 of 42 (190 views)
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Leaving Azog alive changed the entire purpose of that war. [In reply to] Can't Post

The desecration of Thror, Durin's Heir, inflamed all Seven Houses of The Dwarves. "They sacked every goblin/orc stronghold they could find from Gundabad to The Gladden, and they hunted for Azog in every den under the mountains." So the entire cause and effect was different, save that they still do not reclaim Moria, even after a near annihilation of the orcs and the slaying of Azog, but this was due entirely to the Balrog's continued presence. Dain slew Azog at the gate, hardy and full of wrath, but came back from the gate grey faced with terror and said to Thrain who, exhilarated by vengeance and victory, wished to reclaim Moria, "You are the Father of our folk. We have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-Dum. You will not enter Khazad-Dum. . . Beyond the gate it waits for you still, Durin's Bane. The World must change, and some other power than that of the dwarves must come here before Durin's folk walk again in Moria."

Peter has changed so much regarding Azog and the timeline of Dol Guldur that it is hard to know what he will do next (the cynic in me wonders if that was part of their intention, but I am more inclined to think that they, Phillpa inparticular, thought they could relay the tale better than Tolkien Unsure). There simply is not any reliable textual road map, considering the diversions they have made.

And happy to help Smile Thanks for putting stock in my insights and considerations. Cool

In Reply To
Interesting that, earlier, I came to the same conclusion- it's more or less impossible to guess. But of course, I was mostly going off of TH and my memory of what's in LOTR. The fact that you can't draw much of a conclusion, though, shows me how much has actually been affected by these alterations.

Thanks, always appreciate your insight!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Mar 30 2013, 10:32pm)


cats16
Valinor

Mar 30 2013, 10:36pm

Post #24 of 42 (180 views)
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Tolkien scholars during the writing process [In reply to] Can't Post

Do we know if/how often they consulted Tolkien scholars while they were trying to do all of this? It seems like I remember hearing a lot more about scholars helping out during LOTR than for TH.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2013, 10:37pm

Post #25 of 42 (184 views)
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Swore to wipe out the line of Durin. . . but to whom? Durin's Bane? Sauron? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is another valid concern or at least query. To whom did he swear this and why? Did dwarves kill one of his nearest kin? Too much extra tale their. Did he simply swear, for promotion and display of prowess, to the Dark Maiar in Moria, the Balrog who slew Durin and seemed to have it in for his heirs, or to the Dark Maiar in Dol Guldur, Sauron who hated Durin's folk for their resistance to the Rings he gave.

In Reply To
For the reasons you mentioned, that is Azog's reference to Thrain's fear and Bolg's presence at Dol Guldur. At the same time, I think Azog is pursuing Thorin for personal reasons (he swore to wipe out the line of Durin) so it's difficult to say how far his alliance with the Necromancer goes. Maybe the Necromancer is also after Thorin for some reason, and he tipped Azog off to Thorin's whereabouts by having Thrain tortured at Dol Guldur? Thus the link between them would be Bolg.

Also, I don't know to what extent the Azog/Bolg father/son connection will be emphasized in the movies, but I think it was mentioned on the packaging of Bolg's action figure that Azog is his father. So it still seems to be canon in the movies, even if it hasn't been brought up yet. (Fili and Kili being Thorin's nephews wasn't mentioned in AUJ either!)

Oh yeah, a final nitpick! In the books the Orcs are said to have effective medicine, so I don't see Azog's wound being that much of a setback to him. Just stick a fork in it, and it's good to go! Wink

As well, I think the whole Orcs eating each other is a movie invention. In the books, the accusation is used as an insult. But maybe I shouldn't try to mix book and movie canon. Tongue


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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