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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is the story of the Necromancer really hurting these films?
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LoremIpsum
Lorien


Mar 29 2013, 8:01am

Post #1 of 52 (1359 views)
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Is the story of the Necromancer really hurting these films? Can't Post

As much as I enjoyed AUJ there was absolutely no feeling of danger, suspense or anything remotely interesting about the Dol Guldur subplot.

I know it's not supposed to be too dark because it's the Hobbit and only the first movie blah blah blah.... , but for me it didn't have any kind of atmosphere or even a remotely eerie feel - much the same as the paths of the dead in ROTK (and if you watched the commentary even PJ says he only filmed it for the fans and wasn't a fan of the POTD plotline in the book ... )


dubulous
Rohan

Mar 29 2013, 9:03am

Post #2 of 52 (713 views)
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To me it's the most interesting aspect of the movies [In reply to] Can't Post

but the subplot was only briefly introduced in AUJ so to judge it just based on that seems a little premature.


Thorins_apprentice
Rohan


Mar 29 2013, 9:30am

Post #3 of 52 (658 views)
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It gives pete an opportunity to create more stories. [In reply to] Can't Post

Within the otherwise Linear story itself. Wink

We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.



(This post was edited by Thorins_apprentice on Mar 29 2013, 9:31am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 29 2013, 9:37am

Post #4 of 52 (693 views)
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Not really [In reply to] Can't Post

As long as it never becomes *more* important than the true plot of the book. AUJ offered a nice peak into the sub-plot, that will obviously be dealt with in more depth in DOS and TABA. I'm not bothered by the fact the the sub-plot isn't "canon". I don't see any of the films as canon, since they are film adaptations. I think it's good the production team are running with it.

And I think as well, this sub-plot makes the story more interesting to the general public. Bilbo's quest isn't about saving the world. Friends and family who I have spoken to are more interested in how the film series links in with the LOTR films, and want to see more Ringwraiths and Sauron. Giving as a bit of this is no bad thing.

And personally, I'd love to see Galadriel bring Dol Guldur to the ground. If it couldn't be in ROTK, I really hope it's in TABA.


dormouse
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 12:09pm

Post #5 of 52 (583 views)
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How can it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

.... when it's an integral, albeit undeveloped, part of the story as Tolkien conceived it? It's the reason why Gandalf kept going away. Without which, the dwarves wouldn't have got into trouble along the way and half of what happens in The Hobbit wouldn't have happened. Leaving the Necromancer out would have hurt the films a whole lot more.


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Mar 29 2013, 1:59pm

Post #6 of 52 (506 views)
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for films its ok [In reply to] Can't Post

its an odd one, on one hand its all made up speculation which im against becuase without tolkiens actual 'direction' we get a diluted version of events, and basically its generally just not as good!

on the other hand, its perfectly reasonable to include it as it goes some way to explaining the bigger picture! which was actually noted by tolkine..

i dont think itll hurt these films, as they are, but it may hurt the integrity of tolkines work.

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 29 2013, 2:47pm

Post #7 of 52 (504 views)
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Yeah, and i'd even argue that [In reply to] Can't Post

it wasn't made explicit enough in the first film. I'd have liked to see a bit more of the Dol Guldur stuff (which apparently was the original plan judging by the trailers), which seems to have taken a back seat to the lame Azog sub-plot in AUJ. Why we got more Azog and less Gandalf skulking around dark, mysterious crypts and ruins is beyond me. And might have even confused the issue for non-Tolkien die-hards. Nevertheless, we're definitely in for more Necromancer goodness in the next film (and maybe in the EE?), and it may even go into the third one, so to me the best is yet to come...


Escapist
Gondor


Mar 29 2013, 3:07pm

Post #8 of 52 (495 views)
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Dimishing Returns [In reply to] Can't Post

If every film becomes about the Necromancer, it sets in in only a matter of time.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 3:15pm

Post #9 of 52 (522 views)
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It appears that Tolkien's vision of The Hobbit has been entombed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Dol Guldur, the Necromancer, The Ring Wraiths, Azog, Thranduil, Legolas, Tauriel, Bard, The Master of Lake Town, are all being inflated. It is as I expected.

I like An Unexpected Journey a lot and more so with each viewing. I will like the next two episodes as well. But I love the book. It did not need all of the padding to tell a great story.

As to the "Paths of the Dead " Peter should have stuck closer to what old JRRT wrote. It was truly creepy.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 3:24pm

Post #10 of 52 (502 views)
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My problem is how far they seem to be going from the Appendices they keep touting. [In reply to] Can't Post

"We are bringing in so much more, from all the material Tolkein put in the Appendices, you see," but. . . meeeeh. . . they are kind of drastically changing EVERYTHING in the Appendices is what is rather bothersome. I was fine with them adding some of that material in for a larger picture, and adding or even tweaking here and there to make it all fit . . . but there is a lot of whole sale revisionism going on here, and that is a PROBLEM.

In Reply To
Dol Guldur, the Necromancer, The Ring Wraiths, Azog, Thranduil, Legolas, Tauriel, Bard, The Master of Lake Town, are all being inflated. It is as I expected.

I like An Unexpected Journey a lot and more so with each viewing. I will like the next two episodes as well. But I love the book. It did not need all of the padding to tell a great story.

As to the "Paths of the Dead " Peter should have stuck closer to what old JRRT wrote. It was truly creepy.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Marionette
Rohan


Mar 29 2013, 3:33pm

Post #11 of 52 (462 views)
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So far, no [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like they expanding of The Hobbit with the appendices and all the connection with LOTR events. Itīs very much interesting.
After all The Hobbit characters and events are related with LOTR in that matter.

I wish the films to show Thror, Thrain and the ring of power and all that as well. The ring of power dwaves had.

As long as these side stories donīt take the attention away from the main plot itīs ok, it enrich the experience, we have three movies.

Thereīs a lot of material


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



Escapist
Gondor


Mar 29 2013, 3:42pm

Post #12 of 52 (484 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

The rise and return of the Necromancer to Dol Guldur makes the perfect sub-plot for these particular movies because it fits in the original plot and helps explain things while also connecting TH to LotR in a natural way.

On th flip-side, I would be insincere if I were to deny the obvious following that The Necromancer has gained amongst fans who sometimes seem to think/wish that he was there to rule them right now! However, how ridiculous can we make this? Let us see how ridiculous this could get if we let it:

Dorothy and the Necromancer of Oz
Alice in Mordor, Realm of the Necromancer
Game of The Necromancer's Nazgul Commanders
The Necromancer's Hunger Games
Harry Potter, Son of the Necromancer
Star Wars: Return of the Necromancer


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 29 2013, 3:53pm

Post #13 of 52 (457 views)
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A quick question... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have the books with me right now, so do we, or rather, does anyone in the White Council, know during the events of The Hobbit that the Necromancer is actually Sauron. If i recall correctly, Saruman does at some point, but does anyone else? Or do they just think that they've vanquished this "necromancer", and that's that? Because i think that it would be a mistake to make the Necromancer's true identity too explicit in these films, with any more than a hint or suggestion towards the end of the last film probably too much.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 4:06pm

Post #14 of 52 (447 views)
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In Sil it discusses the WC [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't have the books with me right now, so do we, or rather, does anyone in the White Council, know during the events of The Hobbit that the Necromancer is actually Sauron. If i recall correctly, Saruman does at some point, but does anyone else? Or do they just think that they've vanquished this "necromancer", and that's that? Because i think that it would be a mistake to make the Necromancer's true identity too explicit in these films, with any more than a hint or suggestion towards the end of the last film probably too much.




After Gandalf went the second time to Dol Goldur he returned with the news that "It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace;" and expands on the idea the he is looking for the Rings, the One and the Heir of Isildur. Saruman accepts the identity but protests that the One is lost (rolled into the Sea) so Sauron can still be mastered. So although it is not stated in TH text, yes they knew....

HOWEVER....Sil is not licensed. So that particular conversation is out. It is however outlined in Appendices, so they will use the information from there I assume (year 2850 discusses it). Should be enough I think to tell the story. Maybe naming Sauron to close TABA with and bridge FOTR intro.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 29 2013, 4:07pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 4:10pm

Post #15 of 52 (442 views)
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Funny....!!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

and don't forget the Necromancer and Bolg's Excellent Adventure Evil

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Escapist
Gondor


Mar 29 2013, 4:11pm

Post #16 of 52 (434 views)
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I think the WC should argue and debate this [In reply to] Can't Post

and Saruman's motives should be present but not at all obvious - subtle enough that a troupe of the wisest of all Me wouldn't question it.

The WC plot is a great place for subtlety and politics. I don't think it should be so easy for Gandalf to just ride in and announce his discovery and have a following from the council without it passing through Saruman's agendas, wiles, and motives first. Saruman is in charge of the WC and no action should be taken by them until he is good and ready and that should take some work to do - masking devious/selfish motives in a subtle and diabolical way that maybe the audience won't even pick up on. Can they pull this off? I think it is worth trying - even though subtlety is harder to do in film sometimes than in written work -

The fact is, they had their suspicions for a while, Gandalf seems to have been convinced for a while, but it wasn't until Saruman was on board that something happened - that is my understanding.


dormouse
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 4:16pm

Post #17 of 52 (439 views)
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I don't know, Kangi.... [In reply to] Can't Post

On Ringwraiths, Thranduil, Legolas, Tauriel, Bard and the Master I think it's too soon to say because none of us has seen how they intend to use them in the film.

I think anyone adapting The Hobbit for the cinema would have been obliged to explain why Gandalf kept leaving and returning - which would have involved 'fleshing out' the references to the Necromancer or inventing something completely new. Similarly Bard would have needed some character development. I'm not sure that these things are 'padding' unless they overdo it - haven't seen Bard yet, or the full outworking of the Necromancer, so I don't see how anyone can judge whether they have overdone it or not.

I love the book too and the book is The Hobbit. The films, good or bad, are just a version of it, a retelling of the story adapted for a particular medium. So far the retelling works for me because the heart and point of the retold story is still Bilbo's adventure. Even Azog: it's not what I was expecting, but I can see that they needed to create a big moment which would make the dwarves see Bilbo in a new light - to serve the same purpose as the spider rescue, which they'd lost from the first film. This is how they've chosen to do it. I haven't a clue where they will take Azog from here, and that could be OK or it could be dire, but since I don't know yet I reserve judgement. The Azog scene worked for me.

As for the Paths of the Dead, I couldn't agree more. That was something I was really looking forward to in the film - the Grey Company and that strange, unnerving procession into the tomb, with the ghost army following. It's so much more dramatic in the book.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 4:19pm

Post #18 of 52 (425 views)
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Agreed! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and Saruman's motives should be present but not at all obvious - subtle enough that a troupe of the wisest of all Me wouldn't question it.

The WC plot is a great place for subtlety and politics. I don't think it should be so easy for Gandalf to just ride in and announce his discovery and have a following from the council without it passing through Saruman's agendas, wiles, and motives first. Saruman is in charge of the WC and no action should be taken by them until he is good and ready and that should take some work to do - masking devious/selfish motives in a subtle and diabolical way that maybe the audience won't even pick up on. Can they pull this off? I think it is worth trying - even though subtlety is harder to do in film sometimes than in written work -

The fact is, they had their suspicions for a while, Gandalf seems to have been convinced for a while, but it wasn't until Saruman was on board that something happened - that is my understanding.




We will have to see some manner debate before the Dol Goldur event. I am hoping for crafty subtlety in C. Lee style (I have no reservations about Sir Ian!) and I do like seeing the interactions between Saruman and Gandalf so much.

From text Saruman knew the Necromancer's identity - but wanted it left alone while it suited him; but then desired Dol Goldur cleared to give him time to search the Gladden Fields. So we can perhaps see a subtle shift in the debate as Saruman learns more....

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 29 2013, 4:19pm

Post #19 of 52 (406 views)
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Thanks for the info, [In reply to] Can't Post

that clears it up for me. So it is made fairly explicit in the timeline of the Hobbit, and i guess they can legitimately go there. They just need to be careful how they go about it, legally speaking.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 4:22pm

Post #20 of 52 (399 views)
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You are welcome S.D! [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

In Reply To
that clears it up for me. So it is made fairly explicit in the timeline of the Hobbit, and i guess they can legitimately go there. They just need to be careful how they go about it, legally speaking.





True. And how much bridge they want to create between TABA and FOTR.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Escapist
Gondor


Mar 29 2013, 4:33pm

Post #21 of 52 (407 views)
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Wahahaha! [In reply to] Can't Post

And how about Dr. [Necromancer] Who


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 4:45pm

Post #22 of 52 (415 views)
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How about [In reply to] Can't Post

The Neck-Romancer: Breaking Wind?

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 4:47pm

Post #23 of 52 (403 views)
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"We will have to see..." [In reply to] Can't Post

Famous last words. The Gods alone know what Peter will do.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Escapist
Gondor


Mar 29 2013, 4:47pm

Post #24 of 52 (386 views)
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I would go to see that! Hilarious! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 29 2013, 5:16pm

Post #25 of 52 (387 views)
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I agree about there NEEDING to be a council and debate. The Rings might come up here as well [In reply to] Can't Post

As the Appendices say they did, and Thrain's Ring would obviously become a point of conversation (we see Saruman in one of the B videos trying to convince the Council that Sauron would have no use for The Seven without The One), if they are going to make good use of the extra several hours of film they have allotted themselves, rather than wasting it all in "look, Tauriel! Look its Azog! Listen, The Dwarves are farting again! Hey, Let's go watch Galadriel issue some edicts to the Wizards in her emplooooy" Crazy Crazy Mad ), I think a council scene, after Gandalf's current investigation of Dol Guldur is essential. It would be a tacky cheat for them to just show up to aid Gandalf in Dol Guldur with no discussion having been given to Sauron being there etc.

I think the Lee knock is a little unfair. I think he can be wonderfully subtle, but he can only work with the Mateial that his given him. Unsure

In Reply To

In Reply To
and Saruman's motives should be present but not at all obvious - subtle enough that a troupe of the wisest of all Me wouldn't question it.

The WC plot is a great place for subtlety and politics. I don't think it should be so easy for Gandalf to just ride in and announce his discovery and have a following from the council without it passing through Saruman's agendas, wiles, and motives first. Saruman is in charge of the WC and no action should be taken by them until he is good and ready and that should take some work to do - masking devious/selfish motives in a subtle and diabolical way that maybe the audience won't even pick up on. Can they pull this off? I think it is worth trying - even though subtlety is harder to do in film sometimes than in written work -

The fact is, they had their suspicions for a while, Gandalf seems to have been convinced for a while, but it wasn't until Saruman was on board that something happened - that is my understanding.




We will have to see some manner debate before the Dol Goldur event. I am hoping for crafty subtlety in C. Lee style (I have no reservations about Sir Ian!) and I do like seeing the interactions between Saruman and Gandalf so much.

From text Saruman knew the Necromancer's identity - but wanted it left alone while it suited him; but then desired Dol Goldur cleared to give him time to search the Gladden Fields. So we can perhaps see a subtle shift in the debate as Saruman learns more....


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Mar 29 2013, 5:19pm)

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