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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Political Correctness on TH:DOS?
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TheHutt
Gondor


Mar 26 2013, 9:28am

Post #1 of 35 (1658 views)
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Political Correctness on TH:DOS? Can't Post

I guess that's more or less the first appearance in Middle-Earth so far?

Image deleted


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Mar 26 2013, 12:15pm)


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Mar 26 2013, 9:43am

Post #2 of 35 (958 views)
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You only see what you want to see ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's funny because I remember lot's of people calling LOTR an almost racist movie. Their explanation: All the good guys are white and all the bad guys (except Saruman and Grima) have dark skin (Orcs, Uruks) or have arabian / indian tones (harradrim, easterlings, corsairs). The good guys came from northern and western Middle-earth and the evil came from east and south. TH seems to be more political correct. Starting with Azog, Bolg and the Goblins having no dark skin anymore Wink You only see what you want to see. If you're searching for political incorrectness you'll find it in every movie. Especially in every fantasy movie or fairy tale: The black knight is always the bad guy and the white knight will always be the good guy. You can call this racist but you can also ignore it and have fun.

We'll see what role this black laketowner will play. Would be very funny if he's a servant of the Master or even Smaug, Azog or Sauron Tongue

But I like the idea of Laketown being a home to all different kinds of men. It's a center of trade after all. It would be great to see one or two Rohirrim, Gondorians or Easterlings there too. Just as a small present for us fans!


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Mar 26 2013, 9:44am)


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Mar 26 2013, 10:55am

Post #3 of 35 (829 views)
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Black Orcs and White Orcs! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the Orcs were one of the things which the movies did quite well. If you notice there were two main type of Orcs, black ones, but also rather nastier, I think, older white ones. And in fact I thought they were done in such a way that you couldn't possibly mistake them for any race of human anyway!


pulpfiction16
Rivendell

Mar 26 2013, 11:01am

Post #4 of 35 (798 views)
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It's just the nature of the time.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Writing that posits a good vs. evil story tends to fall on the crutch of things like orcs and goblins, which are implied to be evil because .. they're orcs. So, it's pretty easy to draw a racist parallel between that and colonial era thinking. It's just the nature of the writing. However, they definitely did make it less noticeable in the Hobbit. FOTR had the problem that the Uruk-hai were .. well, all dark skinned (as far as I can remember). And the Southerner's weren't helping either.

Doesn't bother me, but, there is some merit to it. (Not saying PJ or anyone involved is racist, but rather, I can understand how it could be interpreted as such).

I agree though, I'd love to see an occasional old Gondorian, perhaps an old member of the guard with a rusted out shield with the White Tree on it.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 26 2013, 11:02am

Post #5 of 35 (790 views)
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I can't see the picture? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you got a separate link to it at all? The top quarter of the image loads, but nothing else?

Crazy


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 26 2013, 11:51am

Post #6 of 35 (739 views)
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try right clicking the image and opening it in a new tab [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hosted off site and considerably over the size limits. It will be deleted by the first mod that happens upon it and realizes that.

or... try clicking this: *link removed*


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Mar 26 2013, 12:27pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 26 2013, 11:55am

Post #7 of 35 (723 views)
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Oversized - that's the problem. [In reply to] Can't Post

I had guessed that was the problem by checking the pixel sizes. I just don't think my computer/internet connection can handle it! I thought it would be deleted as well.

The only way I can view it is by downloading it. And even then it's all weird.

Thanks Magpie.

Smile


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Mar 26 2013, 12:04pm

Post #8 of 35 (748 views)
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Smaller image [In reply to] Can't Post

Image removed.


I grabbed the big image originally posted, and extracted the small bit showing the actor/extra the original poster circled.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Mar 26 2013, 12:20pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 26 2013, 12:07pm

Post #9 of 35 (733 views)
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It just occurred to me that it will be deleted at any size. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was trying to resize it and then I remembered that we can't post any screencaps of the event. So there's no reason to bother.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 26 2013, 12:16pm

Post #10 of 35 (724 views)
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Yes - image has been deleted [In reply to] Can't Post

See here.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Mar 26 2013, 12:17pm

Post #11 of 35 (716 views)
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Oops... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah! I was not sure where the image came from; I bought the regular DVD which did not have the code so I did not watch the Sneak Peek event. (Saving my $$ for the EE Bluray later this year...)Wink


DeadRabbits
Lorien


Mar 26 2013, 12:17pm

Post #12 of 35 (768 views)
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The Dunlendings were white... [In reply to] Can't Post

People tend to forget about them.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


sycorax82
Rohan

Mar 26 2013, 1:37pm

Post #13 of 35 (682 views)
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If Tolkien had written any main characters with dark skin they would also be in the films [In reply to] Can't Post

The films aren't racist in the slightest. They would have been racist if Peter had only cast white actors in the production.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 26 2013, 2:09pm

Post #14 of 35 (658 views)
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I dont understand [In reply to] Can't Post

surely the use of these images on a Tolkien related fan site isnt going to damage WB? after all TORn is the website that promotes the films, surely a bit of leeway is in order. It seems counter productive and a bit mean of them to insist we cant post images, we are fans, we not selling anything for commercial profit. They have taken enough of our cash anyway in my opinion. Its time for them to chill out.


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Mar 26 2013, 2:10pm)


dave_lf
Gondor

Mar 26 2013, 2:41pm

Post #15 of 35 (608 views)
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Advertising [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, but they can get more ad revenue if the only place people can get their content is from their web servers.

(but I agree with you)


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 26 2013, 3:04pm

Post #16 of 35 (581 views)
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You should probably address your questions to WB. [In reply to] Can't Post

They own the content, and they make the rules.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 26 2013, 3:17pm

Post #17 of 35 (571 views)
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I was just thinking out loud [In reply to] Can't Post

because it seems petty. what harm could a few photos do.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 26 2013, 3:38pm

Post #18 of 35 (583 views)
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New guidance on posting screen grabs [In reply to] Can't Post

Since screen caps are popping up all over the internet, I feel comfortable allowing them here on the boards *in moderation.* That means, one or two screen caps in a post for discussion purposes only - and still NO video or links to the video (that's TORn's copyright policy and has nothing to do with WB).

I believe WBs intent in disallowing them was to prevent 100+ of them being posted on our Home Page. If their intent was to prevent *any* of them being posted at all, I'm sure they'll give us guidance on that and we'll have to go back to not allowing any.

But, for the time being, one or two at a time are okay! Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





(This post was edited by Altaira on Mar 26 2013, 3:39pm)


Tigero
Rivendell


Mar 26 2013, 3:41pm

Post #19 of 35 (608 views)
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The whole claim of a movie being racist because evil characters are black is just maniac [In reply to] Can't Post

And not a surprise, for most 'racist that, racist this' people are lunatics, they see racism everywhere, i guess they are not that saint after all and only use it for coolness factor...

Firstly, does this

look like a man? All africans totally have a sideways-longer-than-tall head, voldemort nose and neck like a log...

Indeed i would be seriously annoyed if someone drew a line between me, a white guy, and Azog the CGI-ler but that doesn't mean PJ is secretly a racist who hates whiteys. Laugh

And yes, i'm seriously annoyed by people who try to 'save the world' with BS talk. Same as feminists saying that high heels are a plot of men to make women run slower...

Pessimists have no disappointments.


TheHutt
Gondor


Mar 26 2013, 4:28pm

Post #20 of 35 (600 views)
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Here the pic again. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Since screen caps are popping up all over the internet, I feel comfortable allowing them here on the boards *in moderation.*


Now that's a word. Thanks for clarification!

Okay, here the picture from the head post again:




(This post was edited by TheHutt on Mar 26 2013, 4:37pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 26 2013, 4:31pm

Post #21 of 35 (522 views)
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And still oversized ;-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Mar 26 2013, 4:32pm

Post #22 of 35 (588 views)
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*should not engage* *should not engage* [In reply to] Can't Post

Call me a lunatic all you want, but I'm going to respond to this post.

Yes, there is an element of racism in portraying only white people as heroes and people of color as the enemy. And remember, orcs aren't the only enemy. You also have the Southrons and Easterlings (ie. people of color).

No, that does not mean that PJ or Tolkien are secretly racists who hate whiteys (to use your quote). And that sort of phrasing does a disservice to your argument, imo.

Yes, Tolkien was writing his works as a mythology for England. Yes, he was writing them in a time and place where people of color were rarely written as heroes. And yes, PJ was just following the professor's lead.

But all of those things come out of a sort-of background racism that existed during Tolkien's time (and I would argue still exists to a lesser extent now). Tolkien chose to make people of color the enemy. That was a choice that he could have avoided entirely in a work of fantasy and he didn't because he didn't see a problem with it. There was no problem with it at the time because outsiders (ie. non-Westerners) were often seen as an enemy at the time. Tolkien wasn't attempting to be racist and neither was PJ, but because there was so much racism at the time some of it bleeds into Tolkien's works (because, of course, no work of fiction comes out of a vacuum).

The racism is still there, even when it's not intentional or just a sign of the times. I don't expect PJ (or the professor for that matter) to do anything differently. Other problems would be raised by casting (for instance) Bilbo or Thorin as black men. But I also don't think it's helpful to ignore the racist tones that exist here. Acknowledging it does nothing to harm my enjoyment of the books and movies. Instead it allows me to grow and keep from making the same mistakes.

I'll leave the high heels discussion for another time, but I promise you my argument has nothing to do with how fast you can run in them.



Warning: the preceding message may contain satire, sarcasm, irony, puns, and other attempts at humor.
My Costuming Site
TORn's Costume Discussions Archive


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Mar 26 2013, 4:34pm

Post #23 of 35 (524 views)
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He's probably an enemy agent. ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 26 2013, 5:04pm

Post #24 of 35 (503 views)
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Nope. It's sized just fine now. // [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Mar 26 2013, 5:08pm

Post #25 of 35 (558 views)
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politically incorrect... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien was writing "an English faerie tale", "redolent of our air" as he said, somewhere in his letters. He would, of course, unconciously reflect the attitudes of his time (including a near total lack of strong female leading characters, except for a few "goddesses" like Galadriel or Arwen, or Luthien, and our warrior princess Eowyn. ) Reading his bios and letters and such, I never got the impression of racism, just a guy from a certain age/culture with long entrenched ideas. His Christian/Catholic upbringing certainly gave him a large degree of compassion for all people.

My cousin's kids are albino, and a trope rarely discussed is "The Evil Albino"... setting up someone who looks eerily different as Eeeeeeeeevil. I could go all politically correct on Azog, but I know it wasn't meant that way. He has to be SOME color. (pink, maybe..., no wait, lavender, that would be scary).

As long as the artist/writer/director is aware of the tropes, the stereotypes, the assumptions, we can tell a story, with a varied set of characters, and tell the truth.

Go outside and play...

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