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miriel and celebrian... parallels?
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Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 24 2013, 12:16pm

Post #1 of 38 (858 views)
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miriel and celebrian... parallels? Can't Post

 
we've had some extremely interesting discussions around miriel, and her decision to cast off her body and not to return to arda, leaving her son, feanor, motherless.

i'm not at all saying that celebrian's choice is of the same mold as miriel's, but it has some similar elements. because of the injuries suffered when she was captured by orcs, she decided to leave middle earth and go to aman. by doing so, she was leaving her parents (celeborn and galadriel), her husband (elrond), and her children (elladan, elrohir, arwen).

at the point at which she was attacked by orcs, celebrian's children were presumably full grown (about two thousand years had passed between arwen's birth and the attack). but, when she left middle earth, celebrian (nor anyone else) had no idea when she would see her family again.

much has been said of arwen's and elrond's parting, but at least they had the last two thousand years together. arwen would never see her mother again. imagine celebrian getting the news, years later, as elrond's ship docks in valinor, going to greet him, looking for her daughter among the faces, not finding her. hearing from elrond at that point that she will never see her daughter again. of course, the news could have reached her before elrond passed through the gray havens, via any preceding, valinor-bound ship.

parallels too, in reverse. to the parents of elves who stayed in aman and did not make the first trip to middle earth, sundering many families.

what are your thoughts around celebrian's choice? what kind of impact did it have on choices her children made?

also (i'll try to be delicate here), but i've always wondered if celebrian was raped by the orcs, and that was a trauma that elrond could not heal, and why she could get no solace from middle earth any more. tolkien does not like to go at such subjects explicitly, but in his world, surely this sort of thing happened (at least among the edain).

what say you?


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


CuriousG
Valinor


Mar 24 2013, 5:16pm

Post #2 of 38 (677 views)
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Somewhere between not understanding and disappointment [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a gut-level thing for me, the feeling of disappointment that Celebrian chooses to leave M-E, though to her she had no choice. I don't blame her, I just feel discouraged that she can't recover in mortal lands and has to "go away to heaven" to heal, because going to Valinor is like dying in that no one ever comes back. So coupled with that is my not understanding why she doesn't recover, especially in enchanted places like Rivendell and Lorien.

My guess is she assumed she'd see all her family again and she would have had the same shock Melian did to learn that her daughter was leaving the world forever. Even Melian got to say goodbye.

Re: her treatment by the orcs. Yes, I've always interpreted that as rape and other tortures by the orcs, though Tolkien doesn't say so explicitly. I think it's implied, at least for anyone in the adult world. As a kid I just thought she was physically tortured.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 24 2013, 6:05pm

Post #3 of 38 (666 views)
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I as well interpret her experience [In reply to] Can't Post

as an intimate assault. I think that is why she feels she must leave. I don't think it has the same impact as Muriel, though.

1. Celebrian's children were older, and with all odds in favor of them following her some day, it feels more like a "see you soon" sort of departure. The unforeseen impact of Arwen's Choice cannot be foreseen. It makes me wonder about the scene when Elrond arrives, and has to explain it. (If I were Elrond spitting some Orcs on a spear would be quite satisfying, as it is with Elladan and Elrohir.)

2. Unlike Muriel, Celebrian leaves her children with no guilt or fault associated with her choice. The events are completely external to them, unlike the direct cause and effect nature of Muriel's choice.

3. And ultimately as Ulmo says, I feel that Muriel's cause is insufficient; whereas Celebrian's is a deep wound, unnatural in scope, and I think qualifies for a respite.


So despite making the same trip, I see them as very different experiences and impacts on ME.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Mar 24 2013, 6:12pm

Post #4 of 38 (660 views)
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Interesting question [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all, I want to say that I agree with you that rape seems to be Tolkien's intent. I think another instance is similar - the forced marriage of Aerin to Brodda. It's said that it was against her will. In contrast, Tolkien makes it plain that Aredhel's marriage to Eol is different. He says: "It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling..."

About Miriel and Celebrian paralleling each other, I would say that while they are kind of similar, Celebrian's differs in the degree. She's not trying to leave life altogether, never to see her family again, she's just leaving Middle-earth earlier than the rest but with the intention of seeing them all again.

This is how I kind of think of it. Celebrian says "I'm going to Heaven now, and I'll see you all there later when you arrive." Miriel, though, says "I'm leaving Heaven because it's not good enough, and I'm going to a place where you don't ever plan to go" (though, of course, both Finwe and Feanor end up there).

By the way, have you read Morgoth's Ring in HoME? If not, I posted about Miriel a couple weeks ago and could dig that up for you.

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 24 2013, 6:58pm

Post #5 of 38 (653 views)
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i think i read that miriel thread [In reply to] Can't Post

 
ardamire, i think i read that miriel thread... was it in conjunction with the reading room discussion on the silmarillion? either way, if you'd like to toss me the link, i'd be appreciative.

i have not yet read morgoth's ring, but aim to... btw... the ultimate of ironies... we've been talking much about miriel's separation from finwe and feanor. but.... was there not a time when all three dwelt together in the halls of mandos, or nay?

cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


CuriousG
Valinor


Mar 24 2013, 8:40pm

Post #6 of 38 (642 views)
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Well, that's funny. I never thought of that. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad Ardamire brought it up. Yes, the Finwe Family Reunion happens in Mandos, of all places. Feanor is doomed to stay there a very long time, and Miriel remains by choice. What does she say to him? "You're the one who sucked all the life out of me?" Or: "Gee, you didn't quite turn out the way I expected." "Oh yeah, Mom? Well, you were never around, were you?"

Then they get to welcome one by one the dead souls of the entire Finwe family line except Galadriel and Finarfin. Feanor gets to see all his sons again; I'm never sure if Maglor dies or spends eternity on the beaches.

A lot of people in real life find large family reunions can be difficult to navigate. Just how dysfunctional is the Finwe Family in Mandos? "Oh, hi, Feanor, about that Oath you swore? Well, it doomed us all to be little ghosts with you. Thanks a lot." Then the drinking begins, followed by brawls and calls to the police about domestic violence. (A policemen told me once that they are busiest at American Thanksgiving when families get together, drink, and start fighting over old grievances.)

Which circle of hell would Dante call this one? :)


dik-dik
Lorien


Mar 24 2013, 10:21pm

Post #7 of 38 (643 views)
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interesting question.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I do see parallels between their unfortunate fates, though Míriel's was much more history-impacting and tragic. I'm one of those who actually don't condemn Míriel for abandoning her family, and truly believe that her weariness just grew too great at one point to sustain her body any longer, and that she just knew it and spoke the truth. As for her growing obstinacy when repeatedly approached about returning among the living, that's another matter. I wonder if it could have been foresight that shaped Míriel's choice.


In Reply To
we've had some extremely interesting discussions around miriel, and her decision to cast off her body and not to return to arda, leaving her son, feanor, motherless.


Did you mean 'Aman' rather than Arda? Because she must have known there was no way for her to leave Arda like the mortals do, although I bet that at one point or a few, she might have dearly wished to!


In Reply To
at the point at which she was attacked by orcs, celebrian's children were presumably full grown (about two thousand years had passed between arwen's birth and the attack). but, when she left middle earth, celebrian (nor anyone else) had no idea when she would see her family again.


That's where I see another parallel - if I recall correctly, it was only after she was repeatedly beseeched to return that Míriel declared she wouldn't ever come back, so I can only guess that when she died, she wasn't sure if she'd see her family again, like Celebrían. Plus, according to one version, Míriel helped raise her son until he was fully, or nearly fully, grown.

I actually think there must have been quite a few Elves in a similar situation as Celebrían and her family (sans the mortality choice), as the Third Age was an age of waning for the Elves, and a number of them Sailed. I wonder what the situation in Mirkwood and Lórien must have been like after the Last Alliance, for example - not unlike the one of Celebrían and her family, or Galadriel's who-knows-how-long separation from Celeborn. There was quite a number of slain Elves in the battles, and due to their belonging to a lesser race, I gather their families' desire to Sail was about as muted as Legolas's (and probably more so). That would mean quite a few husbands in Aman, waiting for long stretches of time for their families to rejoin them. The same could actually be said about just any Elf who Sailed or was killed: they'd never know for certain if they'll meet their family again. For all they knew, the family might be so bound to the Outer Lands that they'd eventually fade and haunt places, and/or be ensnared by someone such as the Necromancer.
But I guess the Elves took these separations with more ease than the mortal races, with the spouses not always living together as the Customs say.


In Reply To
what are your thoughts around celebrian's choice? what kind of impact did it have on choices her children made?


I like to think her decision to leave made Elrond's sons choose the Elven lifespan when the time came. Wishful thinking possibly as we are never told if they did so, but I can't imagine they'd want to bereave their mother of all her children.


In Reply To
also (i'll try to be delicate here), but i've always wondered if celebrian was raped by the orcs, and that was a trauma that elrond could not heal, and why she could get no solace from middle earth any more. tolkien does not like to go at such subjects explicitly, but in his world, surely this sort of thing happened (at least among the edain).


I don't think that was the case - she would have died otherwise. The Laws and Customs state so, albeit of Elves only; but I believe a 'marriage' to Orcs would have been even more unbearable for a fea to remain within the hroa.

@ regarding the reunion of the Feanoreans in Mandos - I just can't see that happening between Míriel and anyone. Wasn't she whisked off to Vairë's quarters, so she would never meet Finwë or any other Elda again?

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Ardamírë
Valinor


Mar 24 2013, 11:03pm

Post #8 of 38 (626 views)
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Yes, that thread [In reply to] Can't Post

Linky

Going off of what I've put together, I would say that there wasn't a family reunion. I can't say for sure, of course, but I think that Miriel had already departed from Mandos and entered the House of Vaire before Feanor died in Middle-earth. That's just conjecture, though. It could easily go either way.

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin


Ardamírë
Valinor


Mar 24 2013, 11:08pm

Post #9 of 38 (639 views)
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She actually speaks with Finwe [In reply to] Can't Post

in Mandos. She was only released from Mandos after Finwe offered her his chance to return to bodily life (since only one of them could do so or Finwe would have two living wives).

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 24 2013, 11:11pm

Post #10 of 38 (622 views)
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(thank-y for link-y) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(thanks for the link...)

yes, that's rather my impression as well.

but surely there was a father-son reunion between finwe (who got there first) and feanor? and, even if finwe left, i have a feeling that feanor was hanging around for a long time, greeting his sons one by one, who would tell him of the gradual destruction of all their kingdoms and ambitions.

and in mandos, feanor probably could not make any thing, as he had no corporeal hands. he could only fashion thought. that must have been a bit of something for him, adjustment-wise.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 24 2013, 11:15pm

Post #11 of 38 (639 views)
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that must have been quite a heartbreaking conversation for finwe [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... and i have always gotten the impression that elves bond for life.... so, no "unbonding"? does tolkien say that explicitly somewhere?

wow. that must have made things difficult for elves like nernandel, who grew estranged from their spouses. near-eternity, with an incompatible mate.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Mar 24 2013, 11:16pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Mar 25 2013, 12:21am

Post #12 of 38 (632 views)
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Heartbreaking indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

Nerdanel, Indis, and I'm sure many others whose spouses have died or become estranged.

I think there probably was a reunion between Feanor and Finwe. Doesn't it say somewhere in The Silmarillion that Feanor would stay in Mandos until the end of Arda? I seem to remember reading that somewhere anyway.

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin


CuriousG
Valinor


Mar 25 2013, 12:34am

Post #13 of 38 (621 views)
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Yes, it says Feanor's stuck in Mandos until [In reply to] Can't Post

Arda ends or the last battle or something in the very far off future. I think it's in the current chapter we're discussing, "Of the Silmarils." He's not getting out of that jail.

And interesting point, Maciliel, that Feanor won't be able to be a craftsman in Mandos. Wouldn't that drive him insane? Or would he develop a new hobby, maybe reciting poetry or singing? He doesn't seem the sort to sit alone in silent contemplation, even if that's what The Powers thought he should do in atonement.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Mar 25 2013, 12:47am

Post #14 of 38 (630 views)
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I thought he was [In reply to] Can't Post

Odd that it would be referenced in the current chapter, though. I would have thought it wouldn't be until after he actually died.

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin


CuriousG
Valinor


Mar 25 2013, 1:04am

Post #15 of 38 (604 views)
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Well, you *could* report him to mods for spoilers. ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ardamírë
Valinor


Mar 25 2013, 1:08am

Post #16 of 38 (619 views)
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Tolkien seems to like spoiling things [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel like he does it all the time! Tongue

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin


dik-dik
Lorien


Mar 25 2013, 10:13am

Post #17 of 38 (616 views)
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Thanks, I forgot about that part! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


telain
Rohan

Mar 28 2013, 3:31pm

Post #18 of 38 (566 views)
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my impression as well [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not the most widely read, but I've not heard of Elvish "unbonding". Having said that, I am not sure I've ever read anything that says they don't "unbond", but I certainly always had the impression that Elves bonded "for life" (obviously, given Finwe's example, we are talking about life "in the world"). So how does Nerdanel deal with estrangement from Feanor? What kind of life would that be? It does make one wonder...

There is evidence of death of a spouse giving way to death by grief of the surviving spouse. If some couples love each other so deeply that one cannot live when the other has died -- how positively devasting must estrangement be?

I have a new-found sympathy for Nerdanel...


eminal.
The Shire

Apr 12 2013, 4:43pm

Post #19 of 38 (522 views)
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there are very few similarities and, perhaps, just one ... [In reply to] Can't Post

 ... they both exercise freedom of choice/free will. but! there is one (or maybe more) cardinal difference(s) - celebrian decides to go, but the decision is made together with elrond. they speak about it, reflect and choose what is best for both of them. this is what marriage is all about.

miriel and finwe ... well ... melodramatic choices abound. they are both selfish - they don't even stand to think about their child ... its all I, I, I ... I can't live anymore ... I want a wife and more kids. yea, like thats what marriage is all about. Crazy

elrond is a far, far different person than finwe. elrond is selfless, kind and understanding - he is thinking of celebrian, he wants what is best for her ... there is no ego, just love for his wife. celebrian also ... she is thinking of elrond - she prays for his understanding and help. Heart yea, like i said, marriage and living for others ... love! Wink


(This post was edited by eminal. on Apr 12 2013, 4:46pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 12 2013, 4:50pm

Post #20 of 38 (513 views)
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eminal, welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
welcome, eminal : ) mae govannen.

thoughtful words.... i will see if i can add to them...

i have reread the first part of the silmarilion over the past week, and i'm rethinking some issues around miriel.

some questions i have... for a young elf in a blessed land to be overcome by her body's weariness.... how could that have happened? the pain and weariness she experienced may have been beyond the imagining of any elf or ainur.

she said she put all of her strength and spirit in feanor.... was this the reason that she was spent? was that infusion a conscious thing, or did she only realize it after it was done, that all her strength and spirit and fire went into this one child?

if it was consciously done, did she have an idea of the risks? that it would be too taxing for her body.

the question of miriel still perplexes.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 12 2013, 5:21pm

Post #21 of 38 (527 views)
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Found a sentence in Letters about Miriel [In reply to] Can't Post

which sort of supports how I feel - that her choice was indeed a CHOICE and not a physical result. In Draft of Letter #212 JRRT writes: "In the Elvish legends there is a record of a strange case of an Elf (Miriel mother of Feanor) that tried to die, which had disastrous results , leading to the fall of the High Elves." [quote continued below, ital. by me]

Indeed I have always felt that it did, having borne a brilliant child she marred his sensibilities by a choice which she freely made. And when in doubt I ALWAYS agree with Ulmo, who saw no understanding of her choice and said that the cause is insufficient for her to abandon husband and son.

[con't[
"The Elves were not subject to disease, but they could be 'slain': that is their bodies could be destroyed, or mutilated as to be unfit to sustain life. But this did not lead naturally to 'death': they were rehabilitated and reborn and eventually recovered memory of all their past: they remained "identical". But Miriel wished to abandon being, and refused rebirth."

So even if somehow her body was injured, it still does not explain her choice to completely abandon Life considering her options for Rebirth. In an added note JRRT also discusses the Assumption of Mary in connection with the idea of departing the body for a higher plane, which he saw as a singular act of uncorrupted Men. (NOT, by negative intent, Elves.)

So I do fully believe, now more than ever, considering JRRT's words, that the choice of Miriel was the source of the Fall and of Feanor's issues.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


eminal.
The Shire

Apr 12 2013, 7:10pm

Post #22 of 38 (498 views)
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thnx! Macilliel [In reply to] Can't Post

i think that miriel was very confused ... her ordeal was great (feanaro truly was someone exceptional ... ''greater in body and mind than was the norm for the eldar''/''the mightiest of the childern of iluvatar''; only elu thingol comes close and that after he espoused a maia!/plus, remember that sentence (Elwe) ''now appeared like the lord of maiar'' ... now, imagine feanaro after those guotes), but there was no need for her to die - which she herself admits ... even if she felt she needed rest, she should've come back to her child - this she also admits. but i can empathise with her ... being confused, being in pain - thats hard; she needed time. and a selfless husband. she had none of that.

but finwe ... finwe was a jerk. period. he neither loved miriel (and feanaro) nor indis (and findis, nolofinwe, irime and arafinwe) - he loved only himself (no self-sacrifice) ... he felt pity for miriel only when they met in mandos (i guess he realized that being dead ain't no great thing and that miriel was having no fun being forever-dead ... i always found the fates of miriel, finwe, and indis sad/tragic/poignant:

miriel wished to stop being/knowing and ended up weaving the history of the world; finwe's choices doomed miriel to eternity in mandos an now he himself is there until the ending of arda ... he married indis and ended up being left by her;
and indis ... well, she married finwe and ''joined the people of the noldor'' and ended up being estranged from finwe, the noldor and alone upon taniquetil).

finwe first dumps miriel and takes no heed of feanaro (even tough the child begs him not to do it ... to leave him at least with the hope of seeing his mom again, to see her again living, joyful); he creates and maintains an utterly disfunctional and toxic family life - curufinwe is a favourite, in indis and the other kids finwe 'rejoices' but miriel 'remains' in his heart and mind CrazyUnsure; then he supports/protects the son who threatens to kill his other child Crazy ... and so on. ah! the cherry on the top - in mandos he finally feels pity for miriel, decides to ransom her out by arguing that since indis dumped him he is now free to do as he chooses - and he loves both women, each in a different way. Angelic right.


eminal.
The Shire

Apr 12 2013, 7:32pm

Post #23 of 38 (504 views)
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yes, it was a choice ... a wrong one. [In reply to] Can't Post

tolkien speaks of direct and indirect results of that choice (how it affected her son, husband, people, et cetera): direct being feanaro's inability to cope with loss - loss is to painful (he was soooo! too young for that burden and i don't think that any child should grow up knowing that him being alive cost his mother her life - such a guilt is horrible, especially for a dude like feanaro who holds his parents in such a reverance/worships them).

it also results in finwe re-marrying (another nail in feanaro's coffin ... the last being Morgoth's deeds). in no way does miriel's choice pardon finwe's selfishness - two wrongs don't make a right. ulmo tells us that also. Smile


(This post was edited by eminal. on Apr 12 2013, 7:38pm)


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 12 2013, 8:14pm

Post #24 of 38 (489 views)
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That part sticks with me [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome to the Reading Room, eminal!


Quote

then he supports/protects the son who threatens to kill his other child

I just don't understand how Finwe can continue to choose Feanor as his favorite child after the latter threatened to kill another of his children (Fingolfin). Yes, I know that happens in the human world, but it seems so out of place in the idealized world of the Elves in Valinor.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 12 2013, 8:50pm

Post #25 of 38 (488 views)
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Welcome eminal! And very true about the burden of guilt [In reply to] Can't Post


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tolkien speaks of direct and indirect results of that choice (how it affected her son, husband, people, et cetera): direct being feanaro's inability to cope with loss - loss is to painful (he was soooo! too young for that burden and i don't think that any child should grow up knowing that him being alive cost his mother her life - such a guilt is horrible, especially for a dude like feanaro who holds his parents in such a reverance/worships them).

it also results in finwe re-marrying (another nail in feanaro's coffin ... the last being Morgoth's deeds). in no way does miriel's choice pardon finwe's selfishness - two wrongs don't make a right. ulmo tells us that also. Smile




That in itself makes the choice impossible for me to accept - especially since Miriel goes about explaining very clearly to everyone that this child is the reason she wants to die! Indeed how could he be expected to bear that responsibility and grow up 'normal' in a society where so clearly the situation was abnormal! I haven't given as much thought to Finwe, but you may have a point there - that although he wishes to be happy, how much of his life and attention was also taken away from Feanor because of his second family? I will read more with that idea in mind - so much of my focus has been on Miriel recently.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

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