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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
miriel and celebrian... parallels?

Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 24 2013, 12:16pm


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miriel and celebrian... parallels? Can't Post

 
we've had some extremely interesting discussions around miriel, and her decision to cast off her body and not to return to arda, leaving her son, feanor, motherless.

i'm not at all saying that celebrian's choice is of the same mold as miriel's, but it has some similar elements. because of the injuries suffered when she was captured by orcs, she decided to leave middle earth and go to aman. by doing so, she was leaving her parents (celeborn and galadriel), her husband (elrond), and her children (elladan, elrohir, arwen).

at the point at which she was attacked by orcs, celebrian's children were presumably full grown (about two thousand years had passed between arwen's birth and the attack). but, when she left middle earth, celebrian (nor anyone else) had no idea when she would see her family again.

much has been said of arwen's and elrond's parting, but at least they had the last two thousand years together. arwen would never see her mother again. imagine celebrian getting the news, years later, as elrond's ship docks in valinor, going to greet him, looking for her daughter among the faces, not finding her. hearing from elrond at that point that she will never see her daughter again. of course, the news could have reached her before elrond passed through the gray havens, via any preceding, valinor-bound ship.

parallels too, in reverse. to the parents of elves who stayed in aman and did not make the first trip to middle earth, sundering many families.

what are your thoughts around celebrian's choice? what kind of impact did it have on choices her children made?

also (i'll try to be delicate here), but i've always wondered if celebrian was raped by the orcs, and that was a trauma that elrond could not heal, and why she could get no solace from middle earth any more. tolkien does not like to go at such subjects explicitly, but in his world, surely this sort of thing happened (at least among the edain).

what say you?


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

Subject User Time
miriel and celebrian... parallels? Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 24 2013, 12:16pm
    Somewhere between not understanding and disappointment CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 24 2013, 5:16pm
    I as well interpret her experience Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 24 2013, 6:05pm
    Interesting question Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Mar 24 2013, 6:12pm
        i think i read that miriel thread Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 24 2013, 6:58pm
            Well, that's funny. I never thought of that. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 24 2013, 8:40pm
            Yes, that thread Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Mar 24 2013, 11:03pm
                (thank-y for link-y) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 24 2013, 11:11pm
    interesting question.... dik-dik Send a private message to dik-dik Mar 24 2013, 10:21pm
        She actually speaks with Finwe Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Mar 24 2013, 11:08pm
            that must have been quite a heartbreaking conversation for finwe Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 24 2013, 11:15pm
                Heartbreaking indeed Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Mar 25 2013, 12:21am
                    Yes, it says Feanor's stuck in Mandos until CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 25 2013, 12:34am
                        I thought he was Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Mar 25 2013, 12:47am
                            Well, you *could* report him to mods for spoilers. ;) // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 25 2013, 1:04am
                                Tolkien seems to like spoiling things Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Mar 25 2013, 1:08am
                my impression as well telain Send a private message to telain Mar 28 2013, 3:31pm
            Thanks, I forgot about that part! dik-dik Send a private message to dik-dik Mar 25 2013, 10:13am
    there are very few similarities and, perhaps, just one ... eminal. Send a private message to eminal. Apr 12 2013, 4:43pm
        eminal, welcome! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 12 2013, 4:50pm
            Found a sentence in Letters about Miriel Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 12 2013, 5:21pm
                yes, it was a choice ... a wrong one. eminal. Send a private message to eminal. Apr 12 2013, 7:32pm
                    Welcome eminal! And very true about the burden of guilt Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 12 2013, 8:50pm
                i don't necessarily question Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 12 2013, 9:05pm
                    I don't believe that she did... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 12 2013, 9:32pm
                        hah! interesting task! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 12 2013, 9:38pm
                            Choices Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 12 2013, 9:56pm
                            Sweet! and another haiku comment... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 13 2013, 2:41am
                        also, just to add... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 12 2013, 9:42pm
                        I disagree wholeheartedly Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 12 2013, 9:54pm
                            True, Feanor makes adult choices - which are his burden... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 12 2013, 10:51pm
                    She was just a normal girl, though deeply and wonderfully talented, that got thrown into en unexpected situation ... eminal. Send a private message to eminal. Apr 12 2013, 9:58pm
            thnx! Macilliel eminal. Send a private message to eminal. Apr 12 2013, 7:10pm
                That part sticks with me CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 12 2013, 8:14pm
                    Instead of strictly viewing it as Finwe favouring Feanor ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Apr 12 2013, 8:54pm
                        possibly ... eminal. Send a private message to eminal. Apr 12 2013, 9:04pm
                        yes Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 12 2013, 9:07pm
                    thnx! CuriousG eminal. Send a private message to eminal. Apr 12 2013, 8:58pm

 
 
 

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