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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: Off Topic:
So are you tired of the same Books, Movies & Stories yet?

tolkienreborn
Bree


Mar 22 2013, 8:23am

Post #1 of 25 (416 views)
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So are you tired of the same Books, Movies & Stories yet? Can't Post

Just a curious Dragon wanting to know - since I can't really ask any other questions regarding what I really wanted to ask.

So I will keep the Question simple
"Are you tired of reading and watching the same stories "Hero's Journey"

(Also for those who don't know this Dragon)
I personally do not care for any of Tolkien works because he falls under
unoriginality in my opinion. Now some might say "if the dragons were removed from the books" I would sadly say the same thing due to the structure of the story.

Speaking of Structure - is anyone wanting to see something different or are we just going to play the same animation over and over again.
like what the old "Phenakistoscope" did - cause that is how I see things creatively speaking right now and I think Tolkien would agree with me sadly for once.


(This post was edited by tolkienreborn on Mar 22 2013, 8:24am)


bborchar
Rohan


Mar 22 2013, 1:27pm

Post #2 of 25 (262 views)
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If I'm understanding your post correctly... [In reply to] Can't Post

You are tired of the typical overused "hero against bad guy" in books in movies, including Tolkien, and you want to know if other people are tired of this same formula?

If so, I will say...it depends. There's always a protagonist vs antagonist in every story- not necessarily people, but situations, or things. I would say, for me, it's not necessarily the story that they are telling, but it's the way they tell the story that makes it interesting or boring. And I do like stories that mess with the "formula", too. But for me, it's about the writing style first and foremost. A badly written book with a great story is impossible to read, but a well-written book with a formulaic story can still be enjoyable. I can give examples of my favorite books below- and actually, Tolkien is not among them:

1. Pride and Prejudice
2. Master and Commander (the entire series)
3. Dracula
4. Small Gods/Night Watch (Discworld)
5. Waga wa Neko de aru (I am a Cat)

I have read many, many more, but those are some of the ones that I consider my favorites. As far as movies/shows go, these would be my favorites:

1. Sherlock (BBC series)
2. Game of Thrones
3. The Hunt for Red October
4. LotR: Return of the King
5. Pride and Prejudice (1995 BBC miniseries)

I think the key to not getting bored is expanding into other genres. I will read anything in any genre as long as it is well-written with an interesting story. When you lock yourself into only fantasy, or only sci-fi, or only romance, or only non-fiction...eventually, you get through the little bit of good stuff at the top and end up wading through the muck below.


Escapist
Gondor


Mar 22 2013, 1:45pm

Post #3 of 25 (244 views)
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If I really like something, I can re-read/ re-play it over and over, so no. [In reply to] Can't Post

What I do think is that there are some stories yet to be told. I don't see any reason why both can't exist simultaneously.

I feel that the hero vs evil is a little bit over-simplified for my own taste. I think that most situations are a bit more "messy" and interpretable. I'd like to see more stories like that - but there are already some (just not Tolkien so much - although I do like Tolkien - and I think parts of Tolkien's work get like that - just not LotR so much).

At the same time, simply dashing the entire themes of heroes and "good vs evil" on the rocks of being new seems like a loss - and a sad one. It seems to reduce the existing world to something less rather than pressing into new territory. Not every story has to be about the hero journey but that doesn't mean there can't be any heroes in a story in some other way.

In terms of writing style - I have read plenty of books that actually ignore the accepted rules of grammar - some "stream of consciousness" stuff and/or stories written from the point of view of a character who doesn't think in grammatically correct patterns. I have read stories with a lot of poetry in it, stories that are quiet minimalistic, and stories with lavish details. I've read stories that are just about real life with windows into people's experience of fantasy, stories with bridges between fantasy and reality, and stories that are just escapes into fantasy. I guess that I like variety and couldn't say that there is such a thing as objectively "good writing" as much as I would say that any writing conveys an idea and can be used accordingly.


Annael
Half-elven


Mar 22 2013, 2:53pm

Post #4 of 25 (251 views)
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funny you should say that [In reply to] Can't Post

since I just got my doctorate for writing about how the heroine's story is nothing like the Hero Quest. I do get annoyed by the current attempts to "empower" girls by putting them in the Hero role without changing anything else about the story. It doesn't work. It just gives you a transgendered hero.

"Brave" got it. Merida starts out on the Hero Quest but even though she wins the prize at the competition, it doesn't solve anything. Instead she throws the whole community into chaos. She has to find a different kind of heroism to fix the problem, and instead of leaving the queen on her throne waiting for the heroics to be over (*cough*Arwen*cough*), she has to bring the queen along and not only enlist her help, but learn to use her wisdom.

I hope this signals the start of a trend.

But no, I'm not tired of reading the same story if it's really well done and has great characters and the characters grow and there's at least one takeaway insight into the human condition. A great book is a joy forever to me. I've read LOTR over 50 times. Don't know how many times I've read Dune. A lot of that is just delighting in how the story is written. Especially if the author has a gift for description that lets you imagine the world vividly, as Tolkien has. Ursula Le Guin is another whose writing approaches poetry. Reading her is like eating chocolate. I never get tired of "the same old chocolate" either Wink

The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.

- James Hillman, Healing Fiction

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Mar 22 2013, 2:58pm)


bborchar
Rohan


Mar 22 2013, 3:50pm

Post #5 of 25 (234 views)
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Explanation of writing style... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In terms of writing style - I have read plenty of books that actually ignore the accepted rules of grammar - some "stream of consciousness" stuff and/or stories written from the point of view of a character who doesn't think in grammatically correct patterns. I have read stories with a lot of poetry in it, stories that are quiet minimalistic, and stories with lavish details. I've read stories that are just about real life with windows into people's experience of fantasy, stories with bridges between fantasy and reality, and stories that are just escapes into fantasy. I guess that I like variety and couldn't say that there is such a thing as objectively "good writing" as much as I would say that any writing conveys an idea and can be used accordingly.


Just wanted to elaborate about my view of this if I could. For me, a well written book, poem or story doesn't have to follow any sort of convention...it can break rules of grammar, be stream of consciousness, or use any POV and still be well written. "Well written" means that you find a way to convey a thought or idea to the reader in a pleasing way. The best writers can create such a depth in their world and characters that the reader can relate to them as real. They also have a point to their work- there's usually a message or something about our world that they parallel. Great works can change the course of an entire nation.

"To Kill a Mockingbird" is one of my favorite books, and it uses improper grammar and the phonetic spelling of words in order to convey the southern dialect. It pointed out the incredible difficulty of growing up in a divided South. The "Parade's End" series uses stream of consciousness prose and a non-linear timeline. It's not easy to read, but it is a very good set of stories. Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" is also very well written, and even though the quality of the stories goes up and down throughout the series, the writing style is very consistant and easy to follow.

One of the worst books that I attempted to read was Terry Goodkind's "Sword of Truth". Besides being a terribly cliché story, it also was difficult to read because of its clunky prose. The characters were flat and uninteresting, and the dialogue was absolutely dreadful. I only made it halfway through the book before I put it down.

So, I am much more likely to finish a book with a so-so story if the writing style is good, than a book with a great story but bad writing style.


(This post was edited by bborchar on Mar 22 2013, 3:52pm)


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Mar 22 2013, 4:04pm

Post #6 of 25 (224 views)
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Not really [In reply to] Can't Post

There are derivative works I like and derivative works I hate. But honestly, I would have said the opposite was happening. There's been a boon in non-traditional and non-western style fantasy and SF stories that I've been enjoying. I don't feel like I'm reading and watching the same stories over and over again. Not by a long shot.



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Angharad73
Rohan


Mar 22 2013, 5:57pm

Post #7 of 25 (230 views)
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This is really interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

What you say about the Heroine vs. the Hero Quest. It's the sort of thing I struggle with in what I am writing, because I have a heroine who is living in what is very much a male environment, so it would be easy to just put her into the hero's place and let her get on with it. But I feel I have to have her do things differently because she is a woman and she has to find her own way, which often is quite different from what a man would do.

And congratulations on your doctorate!


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Mar 22 2013, 7:45pm

Post #8 of 25 (217 views)
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There is Only One Story [In reply to] Can't Post

and it is told in a myriad of ways. Some tellings are better than others. Some tellings speak to us and some don't. Some of us need to have the story follow the formula and others of us need
to have the story find a different path. That's why the story doesn't get old. There will always be fresh ways to tell it.


Escapist
Gondor


Mar 22 2013, 7:56pm

Post #9 of 25 (196 views)
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Good explanation // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sevilodorf
Gondor


Mar 23 2013, 12:23am

Post #10 of 25 (203 views)
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You assume I only read one kind of book [In reply to] Can't Post

I read many different types of books. Lots and lots and lots of books. Obviously, I'm not tired of them yet. If I feel that I've fallen into a rut and am reading the same thing (and there are tons of derivative books out there as well as authors who seem to write the exact same book over and over and over again) I just switch genres.

As for Tolkien being unoriginal .... actually it's the other way round.... he was the original ... the rest are the copies.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com





Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Mar 23 2013, 4:22am

Post #11 of 25 (198 views)
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The cheesy [In reply to] Can't Post

cliched plots, characters and script decisions certainly bored me and disappointed me.


As far as books go, i find that theres so much good stuff unread, that i could hardly ever be bored with literature.

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


demnation
Rohan


Mar 23 2013, 10:11am

Post #12 of 25 (190 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

But the absorption of books, movies and stories in general are a rather low priority for me (though I enjoy them just the same!), so maybe I just have not noticed.

As for Tolkien and originality, I think he regularly subverts (unconsciously perhaps)many aspects of the hero's journey. Even if I thought he didn't, I probably wouldn't care anyway. All IMHO, of courseSmile

Use Well the Days


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 24 2013, 12:13am

Post #13 of 25 (191 views)
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Tolkien unoriginal? [In reply to] Can't Post

On the contrary, what made Tolkien fresh was that he was a philogolist first and a novelist second. He invented (or reinvented?) many of the conventions that later fantasists would fall back on, making him a true original. Gene Wolfe is another author who could take the basic conventions of the Hero's Journey and subvert them for his own use. See his multi-volume The Book of the New Sun.

I do remember becoming extremely weary of a certain template being used for umptine different fantasy/s.f. television series within the past few years. Even so, some shows (Warehouse 13, for example) used this basic structure better than others. The CW has a different template of taking the basic form of Dawson's Creek and putting it in a fantasy or s.f. context (such as Smallville).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 24 2013, 12:21am)


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Mar 24 2013, 5:00am

Post #14 of 25 (140 views)
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*mods up* [In reply to] Can't Post

Boy, am I with you on being annoyed by putting girls in the Hero role and turning them into boys in dresses. One thing I loved about Tangled was that Rapunzel was, refreshingly, pretty girly, despite the frying pan (I suppose we have to make girls violent to "empower" them. Sigh.)
And I loved Brave too, though I couldn't articulate as well as you did what I loved about it.

Is you doctoral thesis going to be published as a book, as they often are? Because it sounds really interesting, and I'd like to read it.

I haven't read LotR 50 times; only about 25. But I think I've read The Wizard of Oz at least 50 times. :-D (most recently was last week.)

Loved your comparison to chocolate.

My grandmother could never understand why anyone would read a book more than once, when there were so many books in the world to devour. She read ten books a week all her life, and probably never repeated one of them. But I love going to back to old favorites again and again.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



tolkienreborn
Bree


Mar 28 2013, 3:49am

Post #15 of 25 (120 views)
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dissapointing to read the reply's [In reply to] Can't Post

well again I am displeased by reading your reply's - tolkien would also be Dissapointed in you all.

So now imagine if Tolkien never released "The Hobbit or LOTR" imagine nothing new in fantasy, science fiction- oh wait... you mostly already have that already.
you guys just said you aren't tired of it.

So yeah since you obviously want the same stuff maybe I need to wait a couple of years more then as do other creative writers who actually have good imaginations.
Just throw zombies into a drama show and people will eat it up.

Just throw humans with swords into any movie = money - we don't need any good writers or creative people.
Just take stuff from the 80's and 90's and redo it and call it a day.

next up Jurassic Park 1 2 3 remade.


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 28 2013, 3:54am

Post #16 of 25 (124 views)
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of course you are [In reply to] Can't Post

you always are. It's good of you to keep trying, though.

Spring break? :-)


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(This post was edited by Magpie on Mar 28 2013, 3:54am)


CuriousG
Valinor


Mar 28 2013, 4:13am

Post #17 of 25 (108 views)
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What do you think of the Oz-as-political-fable theory? [In reply to] Can't Post

You've mentioned before that you like Baum. I've read the Wizard story along with a few others set in Oz; can't name them, but one was the princess with the magic belt from the dwarves, if I even remember that half right. (The dwarves were going to invade to get it back, and she was urged to use its magic to kill them--the result was a good twist.)

Back to my question (long day stuck in an airport without a plane, so wandering mind, sorry). I read once that Wiz of Oz was a political allegory. Scarecrow = uneducated farmers (needed a brain). Tinman = industrial laborers turned into machines (needed a heart). Lion (seriously) = William Jennings Bryan, who was all roar, no courage. Dorothy was the Everyman (or Everygirl.)

Why "Oz"? Because it's for ounces, as in ounces of silver and gold, and back then people argued about gold and silver standard to back US dollars (dollars are green - Emerald City). There were a lot more comparisons made that I forget. There were so many that it was convincing, until I read some of his other stories set in Oz, and they couldn't all be called half-naked political satires. But you've read him a lot, so what do you think?


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Mar 28 2013, 4:45am

Post #18 of 25 (104 views)
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I'm very skeptical. [In reply to] Can't Post

I love connections, but I know that humans can see all kinds of allegories where the author didn't intend them (like seeing the Ring as the atom bomb, when LotR was written before the bomb, for example.)

I'm more likely to believe that the four lands of Oz are a perhaps unconscious reflection of the geographic regions of the US: the prosperous New England farms of the east, the yellow grain fields of the west, and so on. With Chicago as the Emerald City (the White City of the World's Fair) in the center.

I was just reading in the Annotated Wizard of Oz that Matilda Gage, Baum's mother-in-law, was an early feminist who wrote some very modern-sounding stuff about the "witches" who were killed by the Inquisition being wise women. Baum was somewhat unique in his "good witches" of the north and south, something the annotator thought he learned from Gage. Before that, witches in stories were pretty much always wicked.

Baum did, of course, have some obvious political satire in The Wizard of Oz. Like his comment that the citizens of Oz were proud when the Scarecrow became their king, because, they said, "We are the only city ruled by a stuffed man." To which Baum adds wryly, "And as far as they knew, they were right."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 28 2013, 7:01am

Post #19 of 25 (119 views)
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You make too many assumptions [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
well again I am displeased by reading your reply's - tolkien would also be Dissapointed in you all.



You make a pretty arrogant assertion for someone who seems to despise Tolkien. You also assume that I (and others) do not enjoy many forms of fantasy, science fiction and other forms of genre fiction.


Quote
So now imagine if Tolkien never released "The Hobbit or LOTR" imagine nothing new in fantasy, science fiction- oh wait... you mostly already have that already.
you guys just said you aren't tired of it.



If there were only one type of fantasy story being published then I surely would be tired of it. Fortunately, new writers are emerging all of the time with different and original takes on the various sub-genres of fantasy and s.f. Fritz Leiber took standard fantasy tropes and drenched them with dark humor and decadence in his tales of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. In the 1960s we saw such New Wave writers as Michael Moorcock, Harlan Ellison and Philip K. Dick added a psychological edge to their fantasies and speculative fiction. That edge persists in such modern urban fantasies as Jim Butcher's The Dresden Files. The Cthulhean horrors of H.P. Lovecraft have given way to the more grounded terrors of Stephen King and his successors. The two-fisted scientists of the pulp magazines have been replaced by cyberpunk 'net-jockeys, both male and female.


Quote
So yeah since you obviously want the same stuff maybe I need to wait a couple of years more then as do other creative writers who actually have good imaginations.
Just throw zombies into a drama show and people will eat it up.



It sounds more like you need to broaden your own horizons and take a look at writers that you have overlooked before now. I've already pointed out a few above.


Quote
Just throw humans with swords into any movie = money - we don't need any good writers or creative people.
Just take stuff from the 80's and 90's and redo it and call it a day.

next up Jurassic Park 1 2 3 remade.



There are creative and original films showing up all of the time. The problem is that they tend to be overshadowed by the block-buster, tent-pole films. Life of Pi has been lucky enough to enjoy both critical and popular success, but it is hardly alone. I'm sure that others will follow my example with their own recent favorites.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


BoromirOfWinterfell
Rohan


Mar 28 2013, 10:16am

Post #20 of 25 (110 views)
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Just a question out of curiosity. [In reply to] Can't Post

Why register for a site that was "forged by and for fans of J.R.R. Tolkien" if you aren't an aficionado of his works? I dislike Twilight, but I'm not going to spend my time joining a forum and telling people I dislike the series and try to "convert" them and coerce them into believing what I believe. It would also hurt those people if you insult their favourite, or one of their favourite authors.

Also, who do you believe to be an original author? I understand your plight in struggling to find an author you think of as original and creative, but surely there must be someone?

Just wondering.

"Eala Earendel engla beorhtast
ofer middangeard monnum sended."

"You think you world is safe? It is an illusion. A comforting lie told to protect you. Enjoy these final moments of peace. For I have returned to have my vengeance. So, shall we begin? " - John Harrison/Khan/Sherlock/Smaug (Star Trek: Into Darkness)

(This post was edited by BoromirOfWinterfell on Mar 28 2013, 10:20am)


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 28 2013, 1:47pm

Post #21 of 25 (91 views)
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suggested reading for providing some context: post history // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


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Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 28 2013, 2:12pm

Post #22 of 25 (88 views)
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I know, Maggie... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am somewhat familiar with the post history of our OP, the ironically named 'tolkienreborn'. Honestly, I don't know why he/she bothers to post on this site, unless he/she simply likes to provoke controversy.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


tolkienreborn
Bree


Apr 3 2013, 7:02am

Post #23 of 25 (78 views)
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stop assuming [In reply to] Can't Post

nope just bored and find this forum amusing.
also I am not assuming..


tolkienreborn
Bree


Apr 3 2013, 7:15am

Post #24 of 25 (78 views)
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again you miss my point [In reply to] Can't Post

Again you seem to miss my point regarding story and theme's being the same.
Also I am sorry you feel insulted - I am not trying to insult you. I am just tired of the same stuff and you seem to again be miss understand what I am saying.
I will again try to address the problem. People seem to be lacking creativity or creating new worlds an following the same "Hero's Journey" theme.
Now something I recently found interesting was how the ending of Bioshock Infinite happened but it was simply taking story elements from the show "Fringe" which I also found very interesting because I had no clue where the story was going and really enjoyed some of the characters conflicts.

Now what made me sad about fringe is the fact it was the same theme like most science fiction. Which is basically aliens and humans or humans and aliens in a conflict.
Another example Star Trek for me got old quickly even though I enjoyed the characters like spock. I just wish his character looked more non human looking.

To give a hint my story has no humans in it at all. Yet the human condition remains which is basically you have characters who might act human or look too human, cause hollywood is lazing sadly or just story tellers think you can't tell a story without humans being the main character.

Now care to name me how many movies show the main who looks human? Care to name me how many.. stories and movies do this same theme.
Now imagine you were stuck in another world and were forced to see a main character as "Sheep" in everything.
Again I hope you are finally seeing how this dragon see's things.

Now Maggie if that was true and you did read my previous post where I do give example people are actually very intrigued at some of my ideas and would love to see them.
You have yet to show me anything of your genius to show this Dragon that you have any creativity. Personally yes a Dragon is challenging you on that..
So yes I wish you good luck on doing that, but I have a feeling you will just continue to Troll my posts instead of give anything creative.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Apr 3 2013, 2:18pm

Post #25 of 25 (67 views)
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I haven't missed your point -- I reject it utterly [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Again you seem to miss my point regarding story and theme's being the same.
Also I am sorry you feel insulted - I am not trying to insult you. I am just tired of the same stuff and you seem to again be miss understand what I am saying.



I never indicated that I felt insulted. And I understand that you are tired of the structure of the "Hero's Journey". I simply put more emphasis on written works than on the visual arts.


Quote
I will again try to address the problem. People seem to be lacking creativity or creating new worlds an following the same "Hero's Journey" theme.
Now something I recently found interesting was how the ending of Bioshock Infinite happened but it was simply taking story elements from the show "Fringe" which I also found very interesting because I had no clue where the story was going and really enjoyed some of the characters conflicts.

Now what made me sad about fringe is the fact it was the same theme like most science fiction. Which is basically aliens and humans or humans and aliens in a conflict.



It's difficult to comment on this as I was not a regular view of Fringe and I have not played any of the BioShock video games, so I have no frame of reference. Moving on...


Quote
Another example Star Trek for me got old quickly even though I enjoyed the characters like spock. I just wish his character looked more non human looking.



Well, live-action film and televison require actors. And, until recently, all lead actors have had to be human (discounting the occassional animal lead). Before the age of computer graphics there was only so much that could be done to disguise this (especially on a television budget.


Quote
To give a hint my story has no humans in it at all. Yet the human condition remains which is basically you have characters who might act human or look too human, cause hollywood is lazing sadly or just story tellers think you can't tell a story without humans being the main character.



There is a certain laziness in the assumption that a story's lead(s) must be human, but 'human' is what we are. It is only natural that we tend to tell stories with human main characters. However, there are exceptions--possibly many more than you realize.


Quote
Now care to name me how many movies show the main who looks human? Care to name me how many.. stories and movies do this same theme.



I can't give you a definitive answer; that would require an awareness of every movie ever made. One obvious example is The Hobbit (although Bilbo represents an 'everyman' character, so we can think of him as essentially human). Escape from Planet Earth is an animated film in current release where the main characters are intentionally non-human. I can cite other animated films such as Ralph Bakshi's Wizards, Watership Down or The Lion King, though we do return to the Hero's Journey. Then we have live animal pictures like Milo & Otis and The Incredible Journey. We also have such Disney fare as the Toy Story films and Cars.


Quote
Now imagine you were stuck in another world and were forced to see a main character as "Sheep" in everything.
Again I hope you are finally seeing how this dragon see's things.



Yes, because you are a real dragon reincarnated in a human form. Right. Of course. Moving on...


Quote
Now Maggie if that was true and you did read my previous post where I do give example people are actually very intrigued at some of my ideas and would love to see them.
You have yet to show me anything of your genius to show this Dragon that you have any creativity. Personally yes a Dragon is challenging you on that..
So yes I wish you good luck on doing that, but I have a feeling you will just continue to Troll my posts instead of give anything creative.



Well, this isn't Maggie's post that you are replying to. And I have made no claim of genius or of being more creative than you. And so, I have nothing to prove to you. However, if anyone here is trolling it isn't Maggie and it is not myself.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

 
 

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