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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
So apparently Rivendell is underground?
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Gandy
Bree

Mar 23 2013, 2:14am

Post #1 of 38 (1753 views)
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So apparently Rivendell is underground? Can't Post

I've been confused about this since December and again watching at home.

During the orc and rabbit chase, the company is in an expansive rocky field. There are no mountains nor a mountain valley nor a giant cliff. They are in a field.

The company hides under a rocky outcrop, under it they find a cave. They walk maybe 50 feet, then suddenly, they enter an enormous, deep valley/canyon with Rivendell and waterfalls adorning the side of a mile high cliffside.
This is fine. Rivendell must be an Elven underground kingdom. Oh wait, the wide open sky is above.
Is it an Elven planetarium? The sky being projected on the underside of the Middle Earth crust?

If not, how can it be "hidden" if it such a huge canyon? Anyone can spot Rivendell from a distance. It's a huge hole in the ground. Do they hide it with a hologram of a forest?

My favorite movie of recent years nonetheless. Smile


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 23 2013, 2:21am

Post #2 of 38 (1069 views)
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The clue's in the name... [In reply to] Can't Post

Riven (split in two) dell (valley). It lies in between where a hidden valley has been split in two by a river.


Escapist
Gondor


Mar 23 2013, 2:23am

Post #3 of 38 (960 views)
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Assuming that Rivendell didn't experience a rapid technology boom [In reply to] Can't Post

resembling that of the past 2 centuries in the real world ...


My best guess is that there is a major portion of Rivendell that is open to the sky tucked away in cliffs and mountains that make it hard to spot from above - and it is connected to various dried up river beds - some of which may lead for parts of their path completely underground - and that are connected to who-knows-what-else. Perhaps it is wise for Elrond to be guarding the surrounding countryside - who knows if Elrond himself even knows how all such various paths could be connected Angelic


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 2:24am

Post #4 of 38 (900 views)
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I attribute it to compressed time. [In reply to] Can't Post

The trip through the cave may have seemed like a short time, but it could have taken an hour, maybe more, and they could have travelled a few miles. That's my thinking anyway.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 2:29am

Post #5 of 38 (860 views)
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I wonder where he hidden pass is in relation to [In reply to] Can't Post

the Ford of Bruinen. Are they close to each other?


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Mar 23 2013, 2:30am)


Escapist
Gondor


Mar 23 2013, 2:36am

Post #6 of 38 (825 views)
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It's hard to tell [In reply to] Can't Post

because landscapes that include rivers cutting through valleys could have more than one such entry point. It does seem likely that the Bruinen river would somehow connect to such a system of underground tunnels/deep-sheered ravines.


Escapist
Gondor


Mar 23 2013, 2:36am

Post #7 of 38 (846 views)
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Compressed time [In reply to] Can't Post

or compressed space? Tongue


Gandy
Bree

Mar 23 2013, 2:57am

Post #8 of 38 (880 views)
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Disappearing mountains [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought this too in the theater. Watching closely at home, the way the scene is constructed, it really looks like they walk a short distance and almost immediately enter the valley. The entrance cave really seems short. Probably weird editing. Makes most sense.
Dissecting is fun.

Speaking of which, the mounts in front of the Carock disappear. In motion it doesn't look like a trick of the eye because of the camera angle.

Here's some shots. In motion, the mountains in front, where the Lonely Mountain should be, don't move to the side. Doesn't seem like an odd camera trick.



Then gone after first cutaway


Very gone


I motion the Carock seems like it would be pointing straight at the right side the the front mountain range. I'm probably silly and nuts though. I had a theory that Azog's eyes might be a different color in the beginning flashback thus proving he is a zombie. But alas he has silver eyes always. And he wears the same pants as the battle many years prior.

(This post was edited by Ataahua on Mar 23 2013, 4:20am)


Jeremy
Rivendell


Mar 23 2013, 3:11am

Post #9 of 38 (804 views)
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Eh [In reply to] Can't Post

In your first pic, keep going straight a little bit more and then take a right. Problem solved.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 3:19am

Post #10 of 38 (782 views)
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Thanks... [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that's going to bug me every time i watch the movie!

I like how, just like in Star Wars, no one in LotR is remotely afraid of extremely high sheer cliffs. I'm not particularly afraid of heights, but just looking at that last shot, i know the only way i'd come close to the edge is on my hands and knees. I was actually surprised to see that in Erebor, a lot (but not all) of the walkways and platforms had guardrails (made of gold, of course).


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Mar 23 2013, 3:21am)


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Mar 23 2013, 3:29am

Post #11 of 38 (828 views)
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Rivendell [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know if you are familiar exactly with LOTR or if you are a newbie to Middle-earth for the Hobbit, so if you are indeed familiar my apologies.


To me, it seemed like the pathway was actually hidden at the beginning (ie-your "looking like a cave") but if you watch closely, when Dwalin asks if they should follow the path, he is drenched in slightly shadowed sunlight. I believe that the camera angle above when they are walking in this narrow pathway with sheer cliffsides on either side would be where the sky is, and they would see the open sky when they look up. And the pathway's sides next to the fields were probably bordered with rocks that were too steep to climb to a point where you could look down on the dwarves from above. I take this to mean that it is something like the bottom of a canyon (ravine, valley, etc) and is referred as a valley. If you are in the US it would be similar to a gorge or like the Grand Canyon in Arizona, or if you are not in the United States then it would be somewhat like walking along, and the ground looks flat for miles (km), then suddenly at your feet there is a giant hole, and on the other side of said ravine there is a continuation of the higher ground you were walking on level with you.


As to why it is called "Hidden" it is due to 1) the fact that unless you would be flying and could see it from above you would not know it's there because its deep in the valley surrounded by highlands on all sides with sheer cliffs making up the perimeter of the valley, and 2) Because Lord Elrond holds one of the three Elven Rings. That ring is one of the ways (besides geographical location and hidden entrances) that protects the valley from outsiders. In Fellowship of the Ring, when Arwen crosses the river Bruinen with Frodo (which is another border point of Rivendell) it is partly by Elrond's ring and elven magic that the Nazgul riders get flooded out and washed downstream, and the horses in the wall of water that fell on the Nazgul were an effect that Gandalf added for good measure (he was in Rivendell at the time).

Imagine Rivendell as a crack in a sidewalk. Either side is the same height, but there is a narrow valley in the bottom of the crack. So like I said before, from above you would see it clearly, but from the highlands you would not see it until you were literally falling into it.

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 3:49am

Post #12 of 38 (764 views)
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Yes, i also got the impression that it was [In reply to] Can't Post

more of a crevasse than a cave.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Mar 23 2013, 4:14am

Post #13 of 38 (796 views)
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As jackson [In reply to] Can't Post

said : " consistency is for suckers".

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 4:14am

Post #14 of 38 (733 views)
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I also like that [In reply to] Can't Post

that in Jackson's Middle-earth, you can see impossibly far-- the Carrock is over 250 miles from the Lonely Mountain. Even worse, at the end of The Two Towers, Gandalf and crew view Mordor from Helm's Deep, which is 500 miles away. Not nitpicking here-- i love both of those shots (especially that shot of the Lonely Mountain-- can't wait to get there!), and understand he's setting up where the action is going next, contexualizing the different locations to set up the next film. I just find it amusing, and i love Tolkien's maps.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 4:18am

Post #15 of 38 (754 views)
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And as Ralph Waldo Emerson said, [In reply to] Can't Post

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

(Just quoting in response to Lusitano, i don't necessarily agree, and am certainly not accusing anyone of small mindedness.)


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Mar 23 2013, 4:24am)


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 23 2013, 4:19am

Post #16 of 38 (733 views)
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Welcome, Gandy! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
the company is in an expansive rocky field. There are no mountains nor a mountain valley nor a giant cliff. They are in a field


First of all, welcome to the message boards. Smile Secondly, Rivendell being that well hidden is pretty much by the book. Some excerpts:

"it was not so easy as it sounds to find the Last Homely House west of the Mountains. There seemed to be no trees and no valleys and no hills to break the ground in front of them, only one vast slope going slowly up and up to meet the feet of the nearest mountain, a wide land the colour of heather and crumbling rock, with patches and slashes of grass-green and moss-green showing where water might be."

"They were growing anxious, for they now saw that the house might be hidden almost anywhere between them and the mountains. They came on unexpected valleys, narrow with deep sides, that opened suddenly at their feet, and they looked down surprised to see trees below them and running water at the bottom."

"Bilbo's pony began to stumble over roots and stones. They came to the edge of a steep fall in the ground so suddenly that Gandalf s horse nearly slipped down the slope. "Here it is at last!" he called"

So, although they weren't on horseback, weren't sharing the fields and hills with a bunny sled, and the time it took them to find Rivendell was greatly condensed, I think they did a pretty good job of recreating the landscape Tolkien described.



Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



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(This post was edited by Altaira on Mar 23 2013, 4:20am)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 23 2013, 4:22am

Post #17 of 38 (756 views)
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Very oversized images removed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandy, I've removed your images because they're far too big. I'll post the relevant section of our TORN FAQs below - feel free to resize the images and post them again within this thread.


The specific guidelines for posting pictures within the message body of your post are as follows: the maximum size of any picture posted should be 525 wide x 400 pixels high (or a better measure is: 210,000 pixels squared - width x height), but no wider than 670 pixels. The maximum file size per picture should be 45k. The cumulative file size of all pictures in one post should not exceed 225k (5 pictures of the maximum filesize of 45k, 10 pictures of a filesize of 22.5k, etc.). These guidelnes apply to pictures hosted on other sites as well as to pictures posted as attachments to your post. For more detailed help on posting within a message body, check out Magpie's step-by-step TORn Image Posting Guide.


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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 4:44am

Post #18 of 38 (740 views)
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My issue [In reply to] Can't Post

Was I thought you had to cross the Ford of Bruinen somehow or somewhere. Okay so there's a hidden passage. But where does it cross the river? It seems like they are on the wrong side of the river when they came out of that passage. But I couldn't exactly tell.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


tripecac
Rivendell

Mar 23 2013, 6:36am

Post #19 of 38 (706 views)
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I think I have the answer [In reply to] Can't Post

From the terrain and the presence of those wargs, I'd say they were somewhere southeast of Ost Guruth.

While Radagast aggro'ed and kited the orcs and wargs, Gandalf and the others made a run for it, hoping they'd disengage the mobs. Gandalf luckily found a cave, into which the mobs couldn't follow. Once everyone was inside the cave (and thus disengaged), Gandalf 'ported them to Rivendell.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 23 2013, 9:08am

Post #20 of 38 (667 views)
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I'd be more concerned by the fact that [In reply to] Can't Post

Rivendell in TH is substantially different to Rivendell in FOTR.


dormouse
Half-elven


Mar 23 2013, 9:16am

Post #21 of 38 (624 views)
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I'm guessing we simply didn't see them [In reply to] Can't Post

 ....cross the Ford of Bruinen. After that they seem to have deviated to the south and come into the Hidden Valley from a very different angle, judging by the first sight they had of Rivendell. And as Altaira said, they did a pretty good job of recreating the landscape Tolkien described.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Mar 23 2013, 10:12am

Post #22 of 38 (612 views)
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Just read...RAVINE-dell?.../// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 23 2013, 1:13pm

Post #23 of 38 (632 views)
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Rivendell is just a [In reply to] Can't Post

very deep steep valley escarpment, you wouldnt see it from the plain above it, think of a crevass in a glacier, you dont see it until you fall into it. The entrance from the tunnel is probably the remains of a little river or something.




(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Mar 23 2013, 1:18pm)


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 1:16pm

Post #24 of 38 (537 views)
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I must have missed it [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Mar 23 2013, 4:36pm

Post #25 of 38 (488 views)
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Since jacksons comments [In reply to] Can't Post

bear mor eimportance for TH than that poet, since hes the diretcor of the film, they carry more weight and significance.


But, who cares, we are also blessed with the tunnel surfing down down to goblin town, so...one just has to pretend it all makes sense...

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

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