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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"This key was given to me by your father". And a few other issues.
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Spaldron
Rivendell


Mar 22 2013, 12:40am

Post #1 of 33 (1538 views)
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"This key was given to me by your father". And a few other issues. Can't Post

Watched the Blu a few times now. I have a few questions.

Gandalf presents the key to Thorin at the dinner table and tells him he got it from Thrain. Thorin just looks in awe of the key and says nothing. Later when Balin is recounting the tale of the Battle of Moria he explains that Thrain went mad and disappeared or was taken, no one knows. So why didn't anyone, especially Thorin raise a few questions at the dinner table as to how Gandalf had come by Thrain and surely they would have wanted to know where Thrain was?

A few more questions of less importance.

How could the Dwarves have survived a fall of several thousand feet through a mountain on a flimsy boardwalk without being hurt when the Fellowship couldn't even risk jumping a single gap over a staircase in Moria?

In the end credits it reads 'Based on a Novel by JRR Tolkien' whereas in LOTR it reads 'Based on a Book by JRR Tolkien'. I'm no literary expert so what precisely is the difference between a book and a novel?

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 22 2013, 12:56am

Post #2 of 33 (940 views)
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As far as the key goes, [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure they were going to launch into a flashback of Gandalf encountering Thrain in Dol Guldur, but they moved it to the second film for pacing reasons.

In the world of The Hobbit, hobbits and dwarves can fall hundreds of feet completely without harm. And they do not fall off of things (moving stone giants, falling bridges), unless it serves the script at that particular moment.

The novel/book thing probably comes from The Hobbit being very definitely one book-- a novel-- and The Lord of the Rings being a bit more ambiguous-- Tolkien wrote it as one long story (novel) but it was published as 3, with each consisting of 2 books, 6 total. So you could say that LotR is not a novel, but it could be called book, because it's one long story. Having said all that, i'm still not really sure.

A book can be any bound collection of writings (or pictures), whereas a novel is a amy long-form narative (any narrative too long to be considered a short story, or novella/novelette).


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Mar 22 2013, 1:02am)


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 22 2013, 1:07am

Post #3 of 33 (804 views)
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Those pretty much sum up my feelings as well [In reply to] Can't Post

Look nothing is "realistic". That's why it's fantasy and/or fiction. There are no "magic rings" in real life. No on in real life could walk into a openly molten cavern like Frodo did without being overcome by sulfurous fumes to begin with but also would be fried alive before you got within 100 feet of the door because of the heat coming out of there and you certainly wouldn't be able to stand in there much less have a row with another creature. You would not be able to breathe. But it's the story and we love it. So for me I don't give two hoots about "reality". If I want reality I'll watch a documentary.

I agree totally about the novel vs book thing as well and very well said.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13

(This post was edited by Ham_Sammy on Mar 22 2013, 1:08am)


ghost_matt
Rivendell

Mar 22 2013, 2:58am

Post #4 of 33 (735 views)
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I actually had that exact same thought the other day about Thrain. [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson has said that originally they were going to have a flashback there but they decided to move it. So maybe we will get it in the next movie. Or, maybe (in the movie version) Thrain gave the key to Gandalf before he disappeared just for safe keeping?


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 22 2013, 8:56am

Post #5 of 33 (603 views)
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I don't see the reason why they used novel rather than book, or vise versa [In reply to] Can't Post

A novel is a particular type of book (a work of fiction). A book is a lot more ambiguous - it may contain a novel, but a book may also be non-fiction, reference, or full of raffle tickets.

Basically, every novel is a book, but not every book is a novel.

My head hurts.


Shagrat
Gondor

Mar 22 2013, 10:12am

Post #6 of 33 (629 views)
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Important Clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

Balin actually says 'We did not know'. This doesn't rule out that they found out since what became of Thrain. He is recounting the battle as it happened, and the emotions of the time.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 22 2013, 5:49pm

Post #7 of 33 (484 views)
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Who told you there are no magic rings in real life? They were mistaken. [In reply to] Can't Post

Also. . . who told you real life was entirely real anyway? lol

In Reply To
Look nothing is "realistic". That's why it's fantasy and/or fiction. There are no "magic rings" in real life. No on in real life could walk into a openly molten cavern like Frodo did without being overcome by sulfurous fumes to begin with but also would be fried alive before you got within 100 feet of the door because of the heat coming out of there and you certainly wouldn't be able to stand in there much less have a row with another creature. You would not be able to breathe. But it's the story and we love it. So for me I don't give two hoots about "reality". If I want reality I'll watch a documentary.

I agree totally about the novel vs book thing as well and very well said.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 22 2013, 5:58pm

Post #8 of 33 (496 views)
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There are mood rings... [In reply to] Can't Post

they make them with sorcery that can read your emotions. You'd think the wizards would have better things to do with their time than working in factories. But I'm sure they have their reasons. Mysterious


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Mar 22 2013, 7:26pm

Post #9 of 33 (440 views)
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magic carpet ride... [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought about the "stunts" a few times myself. I never compared them to LOTR.

a. it's The Hobbit, it's more whimsical.

b. nobody in the main set of characters is a normal muggle human... they basically have superpowers; Dwarves, Hobbits, Wizards, very tough... sort of like Wolverine, in the X-Men...

c. maybe their skeletons are laced with mithril...

d. as in cartoons and superhero films, if you bounce off a few awnings, collapsible ledges, slide, roll, and land on a car roof, you are fine...

e. they have air bags under all those layers of clothing..

Go outside and play...


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Mar 22 2013, 7:39pm

Post #10 of 33 (447 views)
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Moria [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, Gandalf fell much much further into the "Black Chasm", and then ran up a set of stairs all the way to the peak of Zirakzigil, all the while fighting the Balrog. I know it was written that way, but it's still pretty outlandish.


Macfeast
Rohan


Mar 22 2013, 11:15pm

Post #11 of 33 (405 views)
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I don't think you can disregard reality altogether. [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I find it hard to judge how dangerous a situation really is, and how much peril a character is in, if there's no realistic benchmarks to go on; "Ok, so this character just fell six stories without a scratch, and now he's fighting this guy. Is this supposed to be tense and dramatic, or just filler action? Can this guy even hurt him? Oh, he got hurt...".

It doesn't need to be "real" realism, just something that alludes to it. Take Frodo's mithril-shirt, for example. Would such a thing be able to stand against the sheer might of a spear thrust by a great cave-troll? It's hard to say, really, since we don't have any real-life mithril to compare with, but the situation is played as if it was somewhat realistic, with Frodo taking a beating, and everyone acting surprised that he survived. Even if unrealistic, it still gives you a feeling that Frodo is vulnerable, and that he would succumb to roughly the same hurts as we would.
Now imagine that the mithril-shirt was not there, yet the scene plays out exactly the same way, with Frodo surviving. I would have a much harder time taking any threats to Frodo seriously, after such a (hypothetical) display.

So yeah, while certainly I don't think it shouldn't be 100% realistic, I do think you can't discount it altogether. There needs to be some sort of balance.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Mar 22 2013, 11:21pm)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 22 2013, 11:46pm

Post #12 of 33 (389 views)
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This argument comes up all the time [In reply to] Can't Post

whenever "realism" comes up in fantasy or sci-fi. "Come on, there's magic rigs/lightsabers, and you want realistic physics?" That argument is lame and doesn't hold water. There HAS to be rules and limits and consequenses, because if there's not, it's a drama killer. If characters aren't vulverable, there simply are no stakes for the audience to get involved in. If characters can fall hundreds of feet without so much as a bruise, then when they're in a dangerous situation later, the audience is not going to be as engaged. If there's no sense of danger, there can be no sense of relief when our characters make it through. LotR, for the most part, followed these rules. AUJ did not, and, for me anyway, it hurt the film.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 12:12am

Post #13 of 33 (374 views)
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Word [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly. Gandalf's fall to the Balrog in Moria was much more unbelievable from a realistic perspective. My point is we all pick and choose "which" things are realistic. Frodo's going into Mt. Doom? Not realistic at all. But I don't ask if it's realistic. Did I think the Dwarfs were in danger while they were in the tree with it threatening to fall form the cliff in AUJ? Yes. Did the fact they fell 100 feet and weren't injured in the Goblin cave affect my view of that? No. It's all personal opinion in the end. I just think if you continuously apply the "realism" tag to everything you get no where. In the end, it's personal opinion and if it works for you fine, if not that's fine too.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


imin
Valinor


Mar 23 2013, 12:48am

Post #14 of 33 (362 views)
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Completely agree [In reply to] Can't Post

It does seem to come up all the time but what you wrote is a nice explanation of why there has to be some bounds/rules on the world - they don't need to be the same but they have to be consistent. The closer they are to our own world though the more we can relate and then engage with the story/characters.


Spaldron
Rivendell


Mar 23 2013, 2:43am

Post #15 of 33 (335 views)
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It's all in the consistency. [In reply to] Can't Post

The issue I have is that at no point do I believe the Dwarves to be in any peril whatsoever. Pay close attention to the escape from Goblin town. They swat Goblins aside like flies, use a ladder as a makeshift bridge, knocking more Goblins over in the process and do it without breaking a sweat. Then they end up on a suspended bridge swinging back and forth but seem to manage to not trip or fall at any time, despite the fact that these are heavy footed Dwarves with chunky armour on. Then they fall down a chasm of hundreds of feet (twice actually if you count them falling into Goblin town in the first place, a fall of such speed and with all of them crashing against solid rock that you surely would expect a few broken bones) and all end up without a scratch. All this while leaping about effortlessly like they were Elves, only they aren't. Remember Gimli had to be "tossed" (tee-hee) in order to manage a drop of a few feet?

It gets arguabley worse later when they're in the trees. The trees are toppling like dominoes and the Dwarves are leaping from one to another like Rise of the Planet of the Apes. Then when they all being falling the Eagles are all there at the precise time to magically pick them up. I mean come on! Have some real world physics to keep us all in suspense or it wont work.

Remember the escape from Moria in FOTR? Easily one of the most white-knuckle, edge of your seat experiences ever. And all they had to do was jump a gap in a staircase then Gandalf deals with a Balrog on TBOKD. That sequence worked because we felt genuine peril for our characters simply because they weren't super human (mostly at least) and they weren't able to leap about the place like Spiderman.

As much as I genuinely love AUJ I feel nothing during the escape from Goblin town, its basically like the escape from Moria, on crack and it doesn't work. They threw everything bar the kitchen sink at it and what we got is a visually very nice sequence but with little emotional punch. If PJ had kept it simpler with some real world logic and physics then it may have turned out better but it just ends up being 10 minutes of really good CGI, nothing more.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Escapist
Gondor


Mar 23 2013, 2:58am

Post #16 of 33 (331 views)
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I think that [In reply to] Can't Post

the guideline: "if it couldn't be done by/ happen in everyday modern experiences, then it shouldn't be possible for any of these elves and dwarves and wizards and such" is likely to be very appealing, believable, and useful.

I guess that might be a little different than focusing on it in terms of physics, though.


(This post was edited by Escapist on Mar 23 2013, 2:59am)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 3:38am

Post #17 of 33 (324 views)
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I agree with pretty much everything you said... [In reply to] Can't Post

the falling and tumbling, the Goblin Town escape, trees falling like dominos (and i'd add the company somehow not falling off of the moving stone giant)-- it's all a little hard to swallow, and takes me out of the film.


imin
Valinor


Mar 23 2013, 4:01am

Post #18 of 33 (312 views)
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Yep agree with all that :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Mar 23 2013, 7:52am

Post #19 of 33 (326 views)
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Why?? [In reply to] Can't Post

We're talking about Maiar here - Gandalf and the Balrog are both angelic spirits...of course they could survive things such as the fall the roots of the mountains and the climb to the top of Zirak-Zigil.

Even Legolas' stunts in LotR, while outlandish, could be accepted since he is an Elf and one could suspend belief on his superhuman agility since it was just him doing these stunts. As others have said, the Dwarves acting like they are made of stone and surviving all manner of dangers thrown at them destroys any semblance of the reality that you got from LotR. just because TH is deemed more "fairy-tale" doesn't mean it shouldn't be believable - we're talking about the same world, and after all, PJ took the decision to try and tie the trilogies together, especially with all his nods towards LotR in AUJ. But the difference in approach and tone just jars on the level of believability.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 2:13pm

Post #20 of 33 (297 views)
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To me, it comes down to three cuts... [In reply to] Can't Post

Cut all the stuff with the company being directly involved in the stone giant fight (keep it off in the distance-- it looks awesome!).

Cut straight from the company falling through the goblin's trap door to them falling into the goblin's "basket" (eliminating all the goonies/waterslide stuff).

And cut the entire falling bridge sequence (the biggest offender, and one of the dumbest things i've seen in a movie in recent memory).

Everything else-- the domino trees, the goblins being swatted away like flies, even the ridiculous bunny sled/warg chase-- i'll let pass, as they are similar enough to stuff that happens in LotR.

But those first three things are non-negotiable!


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Mar 23 2013, 2:17pm)


imin
Valinor


Mar 23 2013, 4:31pm

Post #21 of 33 (285 views)
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We need to sneak you into the editing room once PJ thinks DoS is done, lol! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 4:40pm

Post #22 of 33 (270 views)
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I'd be happy to give him some notes ha ha. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 23 2013, 6:19pm

Post #23 of 33 (261 views)
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lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

In Reply To
they make them with sorcery that can read your emotions. You'd think the wizards would have better things to do with their time than working in factories. But I'm sure they have their reasons. Mysterious


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 23 2013, 6:23pm

Post #24 of 33 (312 views)
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Gandalf is supernatural by definition, however. The Hobbit and dwarves aren't [In reply to] Can't Post

but Gandalf, The Balrog, Sauron, Bombadil, they are all fundementally Supernatural in essence.

As to the dwarves. . . lets say, any unlikely survival that occurs while Gandalf is present can be chalked up to very subtle, divine intervention.

In Reply To
Well, Gandalf fell much much further into the "Black Chasm", and then ran up a set of stairs all the way to the peak of Zirakzigil, all the while fighting the Balrog. I know it was written that way, but it's still pretty outlandish.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Mar 23 2013, 6:49pm

Post #25 of 33 (256 views)
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DOS [In reply to] Can't Post

will open with an unknown character called Thrain, his quest, travels, and ultimately his capture. Ill bet money on it.

Gandalf will arrive at Dolguldur, james bond style, and kick Bolgs imcompetent jacksie and retrive the key from the maddened dwarf lord.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Mar 23 2013, 6:49pm)

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