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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
tolkien's linking of physical beauty with merit
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Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 18 2013, 2:05am

Post #1 of 37 (914 views)
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tolkien's linking of physical beauty with merit Can't Post

 
one of the things that both bothers me and beguiles me about tolkien's middle earth is his linking of physical beauty and merit.

true, not every being that has physical beauty is good (annatar, melkor) nor without flaw (feanor, galadriel, thingol), but it is a theme.

he also links height to might and worthiness. thingol (the tallest of all the children of iluvatar, and, if i'm recalling correctly from the text, the mightiest. galadriel, the mightiest of all the female elves is also the tallest, or at least as tall as a male elf.

the vanyar are seemingly the eldar closest in step with the valar, and they are all blond. the royal house of the teleri goes a step further, their hair is silver / silver-blond. (and it is certainly not true that blond hair is more beautiful than any other.)

he speaks of the elves as having the greatest portion of beauty, and of being the tallest race. they are also the closest to the valar, and able to live with them in valinor. they are considered the wisest of the races and the most talented.

yes, beauty is beguiling. so it is understandable that the described beauty of luthien would cast a spell on the reader, as well as beren. but i often think it is not a good thing at all that tolkien makes such a strong connection with beauty and merit. or height and merit.

what say you?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Mar 18 2013, 2:07am)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 18 2013, 4:34am

Post #2 of 37 (634 views)
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Blonde elves are fairly rare. [In reply to] Can't Post

Most Elves (including Noldor, Sindar, and Avari) had dark (brown) or even black hair. Lúthien Tinúviel and her remote descendant Arwen Undómiel, both described as the fairest of all Elves, were dark haired. And both dwarves and hobbits were quite short, and certainly didn't lack courage or virtue. So I'd hesitate to make such strong generalizations.








Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 18 2013, 11:20am

Post #3 of 37 (585 views)
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but rarity does not negate the (general) correlation tolkien makes between beauty/merit and (to a lesser extent) blond/merit [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Most Elves (including Noldor, Sindar, and Avari) had dark (brown) or even black hair. Lúthien Tinúviel and her remote descendant Arwen Undómiel, both described as the fairest of all Elves, were dark haired. And both dwarves and hobbits were quite short, and certainly didn't lack courage or virtue. So I'd hesitate to make such strong generalizations.


but rarity does not negate the (general) correlation tolkien makes between beauty/merit and (to a lesser extent) blond/merit.

blond might be rare, but it is associated with merit.

1. blond being the general hair color of the vanyar, who were closest, both physically and spiritually, to eru / the valar, the higher orders.

2. blond (silver blond) is the color of the royal house of the teleri. rulers. might. power. wisdom (tolkien generally allows the rulers of houses to be wise, 'tho individuals may make bad choices).

3. galadriel, mightiest, wisest, most powerful female elf in middle earth. and arguably the mightiest female elf of all, in valinor or no -- blond hair.


these are not generalizations. i do and did note that not every instance of beauty automatically means goodness or might, but it is a generalization that tolkien himself seems to make, which is the basis of my original post (about beauty in general, and to lesser extent, blond hair and tallness, which tollkien equated with beauty).

i have certainly not said that every blond in tolkien's world is considered more beautiful than every brunet. nor that strength is the sole province of elves. but tolkien himself makes these associations, and i have made the observations.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Arannir
Valinor

Mar 18 2013, 2:01pm

Post #4 of 37 (572 views)
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I agree with you... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that he does this connections quite often, especially for Aragorn, but also many others.

But he also establishes exceptions by setting the Hobbits against those tall "beautiful" people or the deliberate "old-fragile-man" look of Gandalf the Grey.

So this kind of relativises other instances in which merit and beauty are very strongely connected. But I agree with you that we cannot discuss this connection away and while reading Tolkien, it was one of the things that actually bothered me quite often. Similar to his idealisation of women... there are exceptions like Eowyn and Galadriel - but his description of female characters remains rather unique - and I do understand that there are quite some people who do not really appreciate this uniqueness.


CuriousG
Valinor


Mar 18 2013, 3:57pm

Post #5 of 37 (544 views)
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Another agreement [In reply to] Can't Post

I am average height for a man, so I don't have "height issues," yet I always find it odd (and a trifle bothering) that Tolkien equates height with heroism and other kinds of superiority. Dunedain are tall, great Elves like Galadriel are tall, and the name of praise for the great hero Elendil is--you guessed it--Elendil the Tall. It's part of descriptions again and again. I don't really consider hobbits and Dwarves as contradictions to this pattern, since they are separate races, and not the two major ones of Elves and Men. If you are great among Elves and Men, you are usually tall.

And women are usually fair, and that means good. I agree further that the Vanyar are the Fair Elves who not by coincidence seem to be the most virtuous. I'm not so sure that being blond is always better in Tolkien's world, but being beautiful nearly always is. Is anyone ever described as having average looks, or short? We get quite a few fat people, and that can be good (Fatty Bolger, Forlong the Fat) or less so (whiny Bombur).

He was, to be fair, sticking with fairy tale tradition, where the virtuous people are nearly always beautiful, and the bad ones are nearly always ugly. (I am saying "nearly" since I know exceptions exist.) But why don't we have Elendil the Mighty, Finduilas the Good, or Some Person the Brave? Those would all work, but usually we just get "fair" and "tall."


sador
Half-elven


Mar 18 2013, 4:20pm

Post #6 of 37 (541 views)
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I understand your issue. [In reply to] Can't Post

The only thing I could say that in an unfallen world, one may expect the external to reflect the internal beauty, so ideally beauty should connect to merit. Of course, in our fallen world it is otherwise.
The equation of height to might also makes sense - once proportions are kept, a greater height means a greater size, which often correlates with greater strength.

If something should worry you, it is Tolkien's equating beauty with being fair. But that's a different can of worms...


Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 18 2013, 10:41pm

Post #7 of 37 (534 views)
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"Fair" = "beautiful" (not just light-colored). [In reply to] Can't Post

In LotR, the Elves are referred to as "the Fair Folk" even though we're talking about mainly Noldor and Sindar, who are almost all dark. I believe Tolkien is pretty consistent is using "fair" primarily to mean "beautiful", and only occasionally with the connotation of "light-colored".

I don't really have any problem with the standard fairy-story trope in which the "good guys" tend to be tall and beautiful, but I think it's one of Tolkien's most endearing concepts that the Hobbits, who are neither tall nor especially beautiful, end up being the most virtuous and courageous in the end.








imin
Valinor


Mar 19 2013, 2:09am

Post #8 of 37 (552 views)
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I thought the love [In reply to] Can't Post

of the Vanyar from Manwe and Varda was down to the Vanyar's skill in poetry? Not because the Valar loved blondes.

I have dark brown hair myself but i don't even think about hair colour - i mean luthien after all had dark hair and did way more impressive things than Galadriel. And went with Beren - dark hair as were all his kin.

I like the idea of how Galadriel came to have her hair colour but is still one of the Noldor and the significance it then plays from denying Feanor some and then accepting the request from Gimli a dwarf no less thousands of years later.

For me there is enough times a person with dark hair or silver hair (different to blonde) do something of merit for me to not be bothered by this.

It did used to seem odd to me that mostly people of great height had the most merit - often it is just to differentiate the person though and as others have said if you are proportionate then being taller is advantageous in almost all aspects of life.

I am of average height and again don't mind. I also like how hobbits who appear so useless upon first impression have a great deal in reserve.


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Mar 19 2013, 3:04pm

Post #9 of 37 (530 views)
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Aragorn at Bree [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo says that a servant of the enemy would,'Look fairer and feel fouler!'


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Mar 19 2013, 5:35pm

Post #10 of 37 (489 views)
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Yes Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn had a weathered face. But he was beautiful when he smiled.
Tolkien may have not only used fairy tale tropes here but Christian ones as well. There is a school of thought that the further people get from the bliss of Eden the shorter in every way they become, both in height and age. And one could argue beauty since the light of Eden no longer plays on our faces. This happened to the Numenoreans in exile and it eventually happened to the elves -- which is why they are so small now.


telain
Rohan

Mar 19 2013, 10:53pm

Post #11 of 37 (523 views)
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or is it merit, then beauty? [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting post! A few comments off the top of my non-blonde head...

Perhaps someone can recall the source(s), but I seem to recall Tolkien mentioning the tallness of Elves because he wanted to disassociate them from the small sprite-like elves of Victorian (and other) fairy-tales.

I agree with Elizabeth in that when I read "fair" in Tolkien's stories I understand "beautiful" (not "blond(e)") But a further word on beauty and heroes. In most epic literature and classic Greek/Roman romantic and even adventure literature, there was no "privateness"; everything we knew about the characters was very public and their outer selves essentially gave us a clue to their inner selves. As Tolkien was writing something of a "myth for Britain" is does not strike me odd that he might follow in those footsteps in his descriptions of characters. In this way, beauty is used to give us a starting point with some of these characters, because we can't see these characters in the text, and it is even more difficult to get a "feeling" from some of them. Of course, their later actions actions either confirm our initial feelings about the character, or they represent a tragic fall from what they should have become.

Another part of the beauty and merit may be who is being described. As many have already pointed out, there are heroic, noble, characters in many of Tolkien's stories that are not explicitly described as beautiful -- many dwarves, hobbits and men (humans) in particular. Elves tend to have their beauty more emphasized because Tolkien has set up the race of Elves in this way. Poor Miriel from last chapter; she was not described as beautiful (in the published version anyway!) and it caused some of us to think that she might be rather short and/or homely ;) It is because she is an Elf that we sort of expect (I suspect) her to be described in a certain way, and because she wasn't described that way, it is easy to assume the opposite.

But perhaps my favourite way of thinking about this theme of beauty and merit is the phenomenon that happens when you realize someone is a good person -- a heroic person, or even just a jovial spirit and loyal friend -- they become more attractive and more beautiful. This idea turns the merit/beauty discussion into a chicken/egg discussion... but I am ok with that!


Nerven
Rivendell

Mar 21 2013, 12:44am

Post #12 of 37 (512 views)
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beauty [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Poor Miriel from last chapter; she was not described as beautiful (in the published version anyway!) and it caused some of us to think that she might be rather short and/or homely ;)


Wasn´t that said about Nerdanel, Feanors wife?

But I have to agree, in Tolkiens world the beautiful and the tall are at the same time the mightiest and the most pure people. Don´t know why he saw it that way.

As for silver-golden hair, only Galadriel is described as having that special hair color, the royal house of the Teleri have all silver hair. Furthermore was she the greatest of elven women, and the talest of elven women and together with Feanor and Luthien the mightiest of all elves, not only female elves.


Quote
Lúthien Tinúviel and her remote descendant Arwen Undómiel, both described as the fairest of all Elves, were dark haired.


Between Arwen and Galadriel it was a match, that doesn´t mean that dark is the most beautiful hair color in Tolkiens eyes.


(This post was edited by Nerven on Mar 21 2013, 12:50am)


dik-dik
Lorien


Mar 21 2013, 9:51am

Post #13 of 37 (444 views)
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I'm not sure aout the height thing... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it seems to me that in Tolkien's world, it refers mostly to a person's prowess in arms and descent rather than actual might or nobility. Húrin from The Silmarillion is described as shortish, and yet he was named among the greatest elf-friends, and capable of great deeds and resilience against Morgoth himself. Same with Gandalf, who was apparently the shortest among the Istari, and yet he surpassed Saruman in greatness of spirit and saw himself as Sauron's direct enemy, and the description of him attending the feast in Elrond's house shows him as a person of just as much strength and majesty -though veiled- as Elrond or Glorfindel.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


PhantomS
Rohan


Mar 21 2013, 3:37pm

Post #14 of 37 (412 views)
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Tall Tales Of The Tall [In reply to] Can't Post

Elendil was called the Tall because he apparently towered over other Men and Elves of his time- about eight feet plus. Among already tall men that must have meant something. There was also a Hurin the Tall (of the Keys) in Aragorn's time so it was probably more of a mark of unusual height rather than a thing of praise.

One of the most central themes of the Middle-earth-verse is the destruction of beauty, natural and created so it might be natural for Tolkien to use beauty as a representation of good.


telain
Rohan

Mar 21 2013, 5:07pm

Post #15 of 37 (397 views)
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yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

That description could also apply to Nerdanel. I was actually referencing the lack of any description of Miriel (except for the fact that she was not Indis). It was also a reference to the discussion of Ch. 6!


Plurmo
Rohan

Mar 21 2013, 6:19pm

Post #16 of 37 (422 views)
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Try crossing average height by country, [In reply to] Can't Post

blonde hair geographical distribution and the human development index to see what you find.

Tolkien wasn't a weak minded politically correct petty-dwarf living inside a mass media bubble. He had his tastes and perceptions and he put those into his writings. If you're uncomfortable with that you have the right to put a copy of LOTR inside a vase full of urine and sell it as art these days, did you know? There are lots of people in the media and the academy who would claim that such art is sublime and would demand pupils to agree with their views or rather fail their classes.

"...and it is certainly not true that blond hair is more beautiful than any other."

Beauty is a personal preference, not something subjected to your ideas of truth. If blonde is more beautiful to my eyes that is none of your concern. You do not have a say in that matter.

In fact it is a testimony of the current confused state of mind of northwestern people that they accepts as truth whatever makes them feel guilty for any of the blessings bestowed on them by having ancestors who were able to survive for thousands of years in a harsh environment.

Anyway for people who may be tired of the politically correct idiocy that passes for reasonable discourse these days, I suggest pondering on the following:

http://alastairadversaria.wordpress.com/...he-triggered-part-4/

To the others, who really think that they stand a greater chance for a fair trial in Zimbabwe under Mugabe than in Sweden, I suggest brain transplant.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 21 2013, 11:15pm

Post #17 of 37 (376 views)
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yes, i do find that contrast intriguing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... that he does this connections quite often, especially for Aragorn, but also many others.

But he also establishes exceptions by setting the Hobbits against those tall "beautiful" people or the deliberate "old-fragile-man" look of Gandalf the Grey.

So this kind of relativises other instances in which merit and beauty are very strongely connected. But I agree with you that we cannot discuss this connection away and while reading Tolkien, it was one of the things that actually bothered me quite often. Similar to his idealisation of women... there are exceptions like Eowyn and Galadriel - but his description of female characters remains rather unique - and I do understand that there are quite some people who do not really appreciate this uniqueness.



he does seem to set up a general theme, and subverts it with the hobbits, to a certain extent. hobbits, for tolkien, are good, plain, regular folk. and it is the "about hobbits" passage itself that states they are not counted among the great or wise. that their faces are pleasant and friendly, rather than beautiful. he does grant them great spiritual and emotional endurance, on par (when tested) with elves and the edain.

he is a mixed bag when it comes to females. for every galadriel, arwen, or eowyn, there are dozens who are just names in a family tree, or have abbreviated stories, compared to their male relatives. i think tolkien wasn't as comfortable writing female characters, which could be a product of both his war years and his don years. very male bastions, those.

i do love hearing everyone's thoughts, 'tho.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Mar 21 2013, 11:16pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 21 2013, 11:23pm

Post #18 of 37 (365 views)
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history and fairy tale traditions [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I am average height for a man, so I don't have "height issues," yet I always find it odd (and a trifle bothering) that Tolkien equates height with heroism and other kinds of superiority. Dunedain are tall, great Elves like Galadriel are tall, and the name of praise for the great hero Elendil is--you guessed it--Elendil the Tall. It's part of descriptions again and again. I don't really consider hobbits and Dwarves as contradictions to this pattern, since they are separate races, and not the two major ones of Elves and Men. If you are great among Elves and Men, you are usually tall.

And women are usually fair, and that means good. I agree further that the Vanyar are the Fair Elves who not by coincidence seem to be the most virtuous. I'm not so sure that being blond is always better in Tolkien's world, but being beautiful nearly always is. Is anyone ever described as having average looks, or short? We get quite a few fat people, and that can be good (Fatty Bolger, Forlong the Fat) or less so (whiny Bombur).

He was, to be fair, sticking with fairy tale tradition, where the virtuous people are nearly always beautiful, and the bad ones are nearly always ugly. (I am saying "nearly" since I know exceptions exist.) But why don't we have Elendil the Mighty, Finduilas the Good, or Some Person
the Brave? Those would all work, but usually we just get "fair" and "tall."


i do think the silmarillion asthetics especially derive from fairy tale aesthetics.

i would +love+ to see a heroic elf character named "ararhor the short." who still might be tall for an edain, for all that.

the dwarves also prick my mind. i think, in tolkien's world, as a race they are considered less lovely. but who is to say what a dwarf finds attractive? one of the great thing's jackson's th:auj has done for me is let me see the beauty of the dwarves as a race, seen in their own light, rather than in the reflection of elves or the edain.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 21 2013, 11:31pm

Post #19 of 37 (361 views)
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fallen worlds / proximity to grace [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The only thing I could say that in an unfallen world, one may expect the external to reflect the internal beauty, so ideally beauty should connect to merit. Of course, in our fallen world it is otherwise.
The equation of height to might also makes sense - once proportions are kept, a greater height means a greater size, which often correlates with greater strength.

If something should worry you, it is Tolkien's equating beauty with being fair. But that's a different can of worms...


very interesting thought, regarding the fallen world vs. the fallen. i think this thought connects with the post (upthread) made by idrilofgondolin:


In Reply To
Tolkien may have not only used fairy tale tropes here but Christian ones as well. There is a school of thought that the further people get from the bliss of Eden the shorter in every way they become, both in height and age. And one could argue beauty since the light of Eden no longer plays on our faces. This happened to the Numenoreans in exile and it eventually happened to the elves -- which is why they are so small now.



re tolkien equating beauty with being fair (i.e., "light-colored"), yes, that thought has crossed my synapses many times.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 21 2013, 11:37pm

Post #20 of 37 (361 views)
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small correction: silver-blond [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As for silver-golden hair, only Galadriel is described as having that special hair color, the royal house of the Teleri have all silver hair.


just to note, i didn't use the phrase, "silver-golden." i used the phrase "silver-blond" (meaning, a version of blond that was silver and "light," but not golden).


yes, i am cognizant that in only galadriel's hair did both the silver-blond of her mother's kin and the golden-blond of her father's kin appear. it was compared to the silver and gold light of the two trees.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 11:38pm

Post #21 of 37 (363 views)
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I like where you are going here [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Aragorn had a weathered face. But he was beautiful when he smiled.
Tolkien may have not only used fairy tale tropes here but Christian ones as well. There is a school of thought that the further people get from the bliss of Eden the shorter in every way they become, both in height and age. And one could argue beauty since the light of Eden no longer plays on our faces. This happened to the Numenoreans in exile and it eventually happened to the elves -- which is why they are so small now.



I wonder if it is not a symbolism - certainly height - for how far removed from the baseness of Earth the charactar is, and closer to the Blessed Realm, (even if it became unconscious at some point in the works), as Tolkien's universe grew in scope. I think the 'beauty' concept rather goes along with the height and "fairness" if we define 'fair' as being closer to Valinor and the initial notes of Creation. Certainly many lovely and beautiful Firstborn were dark, so I think then overall intent is a spiritual one. And indeed, as you say, as one heads in another direction "shrinking" can occur, like morphology reflecting spirtuality.

And of course there is a subjectivity within the races. Thus the magic of Gimli seeing the beauty of Galadriel.

As a random thought I feel like Tolkien does that with doors as well. The closer beings are to Valinor and living in dual spirit worlds, the less need they seem to have for doors. Elves have almost none - Dwarf doors are firm and secret. Men and Hobbits are in the middle, using them but not magically or secretly.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 11:41pm

Post #22 of 37 (355 views)
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We cross-posted here! [In reply to] Can't Post

About proximity to grace. I agree.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 21 2013, 11:58pm

Post #23 of 37 (376 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
blonde hair geographical distribution and the human development index to see what you find.

Tolkien wasn't a weak minded politically correct petty-dwarf living inside a mass media bubble. He had his tastes and perceptions and he put those into his writings. If you're uncomfortable with that you have the right to put a copy of LOTR inside a vase full of urine and sell it as art these days, did you know? There are lots of people in the media and the academy who would claim that such art is sublime and would demand pupils to agree with their views or rather fail their classes.


"...and it is certainly not true that blond hair is more beautiful than any other."

Beauty is a personal preference, not something subjected to your ideas of truth. If blonde is more beautiful to my eyes that is none of your concern. You do not have a say in that matter.



you certainly have strong feelings on this subject.

even though your suggestion may have been well-intended, i will not be taking up your idea of putting a copy of lotr in a vase filled with voided product. not quite my thing. though an inventive suggestion.

it is factually true that blond hair is not inherently more attractive than any other hair color. people may, as individuals, find it more attractive, but then we are measuring their reactions, not something at the molecular level in the hair itself.

i clearly state that this is a subjective matter, as is beauty in general (separate to hair). you are arguing against something i have not stated.

it is also true that i have no concern over what you find attractive. you are just as free to find fili more attractive than kili, or azog more attractive than galadriel. if you sincerely declared gollum "a real hottie," i would not even think to try to dissuade you from your opinion.




In Reply To
In fact it is a testimony of the current confused state of mind of northwestern people that they accepts as truth whatever makes them feel guilty for any of the blessings bestowed on them by having ancestors who were able to survive for thousands of years in a harsh environment.

Anyway for people who may be tired of the politically correct idiocy that passes for reasonable discourse these days, I suggest pondering on the following:

http://alastairadversaria.wordpress.com/...he-triggered-part-4/

To the others, who really think that they stand a greater chance for a fair trial in Zimbabwe under Mugabe than in Sweden, I suggest brain transplant.



i find this part of the post confusing, and thus cannot comment.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 22 2013, 12:06am

Post #24 of 37 (367 views)
Shortcut
by the way, +thank you+ [In reply to] Can't Post

 
by the way, thank you to all who have been sharing your well-composed and interesting thoughts, regardless where on the spectrum they lie.

i have been avidly reading them through the week, and i apologize for not joining in in more of an active fashion, but the thoughts expressed here required more time to compose my own thoughts in return than i had in ready quantities.

must say again:

i am still mightily intrigued with the idea that being farther away from valinor/grace means a physical diminishing. that would seem to explain a lot in tolkien's world. he does mention that, over time, hobbits become shorter and elves "diminish" ('tho he's not explicit with what "diminished" means).

just to note: if we accept that, we'd also have to take a second look at the height/beauty thing at the beginnings of all the races and individuals... if estrangement from grace means physical diminishment, is someone who is less tall or physically beautiful farther from grace (at least to start), in tolkien's world? or would this apply to some races, but not all?

lovely discussion.

thank you all.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 22 2013, 12:19am

Post #25 of 37 (342 views)
Shortcut
x-post! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
x-post! you owe me an ale at the green dragon!

cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

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