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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
A Few Nitpicks
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Barrow-Wight
Lorien

Mar 21 2013, 4:05am

Post #1 of 65 (1649 views)
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A Few Nitpicks Can't Post

I've watched the DVD a few times since I bought it and there's a few things that bug me

1: Why does Thranduil bring a host of Elves to Erebor when Smaug attacks? The dragon's attack is unexpected and happens so fast, so why does Thranduil come with an army if it's just for a visit? perhaps some kind of ceremony or something?

2: In LOTR the ground in front of the buildings in bywater (The green dragon) is filled with gravel and rocks you can see this clearly in ROTK when Gandalf brings his stagecoach wagon to pick up Frodo to go to The Grey Havens as there are whell marks in the gravel, yet in The Hobbit flashforwards to Old Bilbo's time you can see Bywater in the background and the ground is just grass when clearly in the LOTR trilogy it was gravel but they are supposed to be in the same time frame.

3: The stone trolls in FOTR are giant compared to The trolls in The Hobbit, I thought it was forced perspective at first but no the trolls are HUGE while in the Hobbit they are just a few feet taller then Gandalf is maybe it's forced perspective in The Hobbit though.


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

Mar 21 2013, 4:46am

Post #2 of 65 (848 views)
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#1 [In reply to] Can't Post

This is an interesting question. One guess could be that it's not literal time. for example, i think of balin's narration of the Battle of
Azanulbizar. I find it entertaining how it is written. In my take, it's a combination of the image of the battle literally parralleling with Balin's narration of the events of the battle, and the
symbolic correlation between the battle's events with Balin's narration and the larger context of the Dwarven situation. For instance, Balin says that the Dwarves were leaderless and defeated, this after we have seen azog decapitate thror and after Thrain reportedly went mad and was missing. Balin has combined events into the narration of the battle. Thrain, most likely did not go mad and disappear right then and there as the battle was raging. perhaps one assumes that Balin is saying what happened since the battle. but the point remains true for the Dwarven people since the battle and the actual battle before the tide turned....leaderless and defeated. in one of my opinions it appears that the narration weaves these events together. we see the context of the larger dwarven situation symbolized through the literal events of the battle in a way. the leaderless and defeated dwarves - defeated and leaderless (as they were after thror gone, and disappearance of thrain after the battle) - are reeling, until thorin rallies the troops.
I think this might relate to the Thranduil in the prologue narration if you get what i mean.

I was thinking about hte prologues and after a viewing i never really noticed how the erebor part explained the dwarves but then how it came back to bagend and bilbo appropriately states how this was where he came into the story. one might think it's obvious, but i never picked up on that part. I think it blends the two prologues together and serves as a launching pad to reintroducing frodo. it gives a glimpse of the majesty of the dwarven kingdom, and then were back at bagend when the narration goes to where bilbo participates in the story, and again immerses us in the life of a hobbit. I find that entertaining. I never listened to that before but i think it makes a difference with prologues bringing them together.

Are you noticing when bilbo hides his treasures that there is a sword that looks like the blade fili carries around? I wonder if that is his blade or just some random artifact from erebor or troll loot?


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Mar 21 2013, 5:14am

Post #3 of 65 (768 views)
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blade [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course, we can't be sure until TABA, but I believe in the book their weapons are buried with them?

I thought that Fili's blade was longer, and it had a weird warp looking bend on the top. I think that sword that Frodo pulls out honestly looks more like the Troll's sword that he points at Bilbo when he asks him if he is an oversized squirrel.

Fili's swords were polished and bright, and I know silver tarnishes after a while, but like I said the sword Frodo is holding seems to be more in size and shape in relation to Frodo as the troll one was in relation to Bilbo. Also, the one Frodo holds seems to have a very slight upturn to the point at the end, whereas Fili's are straight angled-no upturn at the end.

And perhaps I am wrong because Bilbo is affected by the ring and his house is messier, but I for one would think that if it was Fili's sword and he somehow managed to wrangle it away from the dwarves that he would have taken better care of the sword of his dead friend. Look at the silver sword on his wall? It's polished. Look at Sting-it's polished. So why would he have let his memorabilia (possibly his only one from what I saw) from a friend tarnish to the point of being nearly completely black?

I also think the troll sword was mostly black if I remember-just the edge was shiny. But I am about to watch the movie again so I will keep an eye out-have absolutely no idea how to do screenshots or I would put the two screenshots of the two swords side by side and see if the shape matches, but I will ask my more tech savvy husband if he can figure it out tomorrow and if he can I will post links to them and we can look at them side by side and see Smile

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 21 2013, 6:40am

Post #4 of 65 (738 views)
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#1 and #2 [In reply to] Can't Post

1. No reason. Totally hokey effort on Jackson's part to explain why the Dwarves hate the Elves. A voice narration telling the real reason would have served better. That elk is pretty cool, though.

2. That one's easy. Sharkey & co. dug up all the grass and put down gravel. Thus, in the early days (Old Bilbo time, but before the Quest) there's grass. Later, when Frodo's leaving for the Havens, gravel. The fact that the movie didn't show the Scouring doesn't mean it didn't happen.








Eleniel
Grey Havens


Mar 21 2013, 7:22am

Post #5 of 65 (634 views)
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This. ^ ^ // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






dormouse
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 8:39am

Post #6 of 65 (597 views)
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Well.... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. That's a scene they've added to show why Thorin hates Elves. They didn't help the dwarves. But if you want to build a story round it, say that he had word of the dragon's approach (birds, Radagast, who knows), went with the aim of helping, saw the scale of the destruction and realised there was nothing he could do. Or had been going there anyway to pay tribute, or whatever it is they say he does, saw the scale of the destruction.... etc. Or just accept it as is and enjoy a glimpse of the Mirkwood Elves in force - a foreshadowing of the battle to come.

2. Maybe they gravelled it over during the time Frodo was away.

3. Camera angle


dik-dik
Lorien


Mar 21 2013, 10:12am

Post #7 of 65 (534 views)
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Re: [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

1: Why does Thranduil bring a host of Elves to Erebor when Smaug attacks? The dragon's attack is unexpected and happens so fast, so why does Thranduil come with an army if it's just for a visit? perhaps some kind of ceremony or something?


I guess they could come up with a reason for his appearance at Erebor - paying homage, military bootcamp in the wilderness or something of the sort... But what infuriates me is that Thranduil and his army never help the victims. That for me is just one botched-up explanation for the Elf-Dwarf enmity. And I don't understand why they had to make it up at all. Tolkien himself says (in The Letters, I believe) that the bit in TH book about the Elf-king's ancient grudge refers to The Silmarillion events, so I don't see why this should be a copyright issue at all. Especially with mentions of the same events in LotR. Instead we have a cruel Thranduil who apparently doesn't provide the victims of the dragon's attack with either medical care (aren't the Elves gifted healers?) or food. I'm doubtful anything they do in movies 2 and 3 will redeem him in my eyes, and movie-Thorin's fury at Elves seems 100% well-founded in my eyes after such appalling display of heartless behaviour - which in turn makes Gandalf's anger at Thorin for grudge-keeping ill-founded in my eyes. End of rant. Crazy


In Reply To
2: In LOTR the ground in front of the buildings in bywater (The green dragon) is filled with gravel and rocks you can see this clearly in ROTK when Gandalf brings his stagecoach wagon to pick up Frodo to go to The Grey Havens as there are whell marks in the gravel, yet in The Hobbit flashforwards to Old Bilbo's time you can see Bywater in the background and the ground is just grass when clearly in the LOTR trilogy it was gravel but they are supposed to be in the same time frame.


I like Elisabeth's explanation for this. Wink Or maybe the travellers complained that the grassy terrain doesn't make it easy for carts to drive and park there if there's mud and rain, so by the time LotR took place this was amended?


In Reply To
3: The stone trolls in FOTR are giant compared to The trolls in The Hobbit, I thought it was forced perspective at first but no the trolls are HUGE while in the Hobbit they are just a few feet taller then Gandalf is maybe it's forced perspective in The Hobbit though.


They didn't seem all that huge to me in LotR... anyway, I was pleased they weren't superlarge; I wouldn't want them to compete with the balrog or Smaug in size, and I can only take a few giant enemies in a movie before I grow bored with them. That was precisely my problem with the superlarge oliphaunts, fell beasts and wargs in LotR - it makes disposing of them much less credible for me. So from that perspective I welcomed the trolls being of a modest size in TH.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


(This post was edited by dik-dik on Mar 21 2013, 10:16am)


LittleH
Registered User

Mar 21 2013, 10:13am

Post #8 of 65 (586 views)
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I watched FOTR couple of days ago..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the troll in FOTR at Moria was a cave troll. I'm sure that is what Boromir said to Aragorn? Or I could be wrong lol!


dik-dik
Lorien


Mar 21 2013, 10:18am

Post #9 of 65 (570 views)
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Little H, I think the scene Barrow Wight has in mind... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is the athelas scene with 'Mr. Bilbo's trolls'.
Welcome to TORN, by the way! Smile

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


kiwifan
Rohan

Mar 21 2013, 11:01am

Post #10 of 65 (597 views)
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Yes, to me it seems hokey , too [In reply to] Can't Post

and it doesn't make sense. There's no way the Woodelves would have been able to reach Erebor that quickly, and I for one don't blame Thranduil for not getting into some kind of battle with Smaug because sacrificing your people in a hopeless cause is not good leadership but just plain stupid. So this scene bugs me for both these reasons --- improbability and making Thranduil look bad unnecessarily.

I also didn't like the bit about Thranduil paying homage to Thror, that seems very unlikely to me. A 'state visit' as it were is fine, but 'paying homage'? The only good thing about all this is we get to see Thranduil before the happenings in DoS, and he is beautiful ....Smile

'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 21 2013, 11:46am

Post #11 of 65 (501 views)
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agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

 
paying homage? seems unlikely.

visit, perhaps for a delivery of food or similar things that they trade the dwarves with for thranduil's coveted jewels? that seems more likely.

i wish i could find even the thinnest possible logic for why a fully armed company of elves would be so far from thranduil's kingdom (if it were for just a regular trade visit, why would they be fully armed?), but i can't.

it bothers me, every time i see it. i try not to dwell, 'tho.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


imin
Valinor


Mar 21 2013, 11:54am

Post #12 of 65 (505 views)
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In the movie [In reply to] Can't Post

It says all will pay great homage to him even the great elven king Thranduil.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 21 2013, 12:00pm

Post #13 of 65 (491 views)
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yes, i realize it says that in the movie... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...but it doesn't make sense to me.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


imin
Valinor


Mar 21 2013, 12:02pm

Post #14 of 65 (507 views)
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No it doesn't make sense [In reply to] Can't Post

But still that is how it is. Basically it is fine until one thinks about it and then it falls apart, just like how taking your elven warriors there just to have the best seats to watch Erebor sacked makes no sense either - other than to make the connection between Thranduil and Thorin and the latter's hatred of the elves - very poorly done.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Mar 21 2013, 1:03pm

Post #15 of 65 (432 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

 
for some people, certain aspects of continuity, logic, character depiction, character motivation in the film vary. some people will notice some things, others will blip over them.

for me thranduil's homage and the appearance of the elven host in full battle dress right when smaug attacks is really... strange.

however, i understand that this is the film's construct. so, thranduil's (presumed) non-help of all the refugees makes it extremely easy for me to understand and deeply empathize with thorin's bitterness and prolonged anger. especially considering how deeply he takes his responsibility for the care and welfare of those under him. he may be very high-handed at times, but he personally feels responsible for those under his care.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


bborchar
Rohan


Mar 21 2013, 1:05pm

Post #16 of 65 (447 views)
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My thought [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. No reason. Totally hokey effort on Jackson's part to explain why the Dwarves hate the Elves. A voice narration telling the real reason would have served better. That elk is pretty cool, though.


We haven't seen Thranduil speak yet, so we don't know the whole story behind this. It may not be hokey at all...but again, we won't know until the next movie when we actually meet him. There is more to the story than we know so far.


Brego93
The Shire


Mar 21 2013, 1:09pm

Post #17 of 65 (486 views)
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How does Thranduil know that Erebor is being attacked by Smaug? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always interupted his action, to not help the dwarves, as a reaction to Smaug. He arrived with every intention to help but was not expecting a dragon to be the source of commotion. When Gondor lit the beacons so that Rohan would ride to their aid, Theoden and his men knew that Minas Tirth was being attacked, but not what was attacking the city. They got there and faced thousands of orcs and a herd of Mumakil, but for all they knew they could have been facing a balrog or the powerpuff girls. Assuming that the elves of Mirkwood and the dwarves of Erebor and a similar means of emergency communication, i think this explains it. However I think a good point was raised about them not helping the escaped/ injured dwarves. Unsure

"I don't know half of you as half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you as well as you deserve"


imin
Valinor


Mar 21 2013, 1:18pm

Post #18 of 65 (435 views)
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More to come [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a certain - we have only had a glimpse of the character. They also could not use any material from The Sil and so it would have been difficult to give a more accurate reason as to why the elves and dwarves dislike each other so PJ et al had to invent one for the films, which we will learn more about as the trilogy progresses. However as a starting point - of elves paying homage - never would happen for one thing. This made me think - 'what?' when i first watched it - had i not known much of M-e then i wouldn't know any better so wouldn't mind/care.

At the end of the day a reason had to be made for the elves and dwarves hating each other and this was what they manufactured. I think in the film universe it will make sense but at the same time go against what is in the 'proper' universe and cause some headaches for people who have both read and watched the films.

His Irish Elk or whatever did look rather nice though :P


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 21 2013, 1:20pm

Post #19 of 65 (450 views)
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A little bird told me.... [In reply to] Can't Post

It was Carc.

That's a very simple and easy explanation.


LittleH
Registered User

Mar 21 2013, 1:22pm

Post #20 of 65 (418 views)
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Doh! [In reply to] Can't Post

Oooh right. Ha. ha,ha... silly me.


imin
Valinor


Mar 21 2013, 1:34pm

Post #21 of 65 (454 views)
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The elves got there pretty fast! [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean how long can it take the dragon to fly over - at the time Thorin saw Smaug it cuts to Smaug burning Dale, Bilbo narrating then says the city of men was nothing to him or something to that effect, which i take it as he burns both Dale and Erebor in one swift move.

So Carc had to fly very fast indeed to get from Ravenhill all the way to Thranduil's Halls and then have Thranduil and some men race over to Erebor - all on foot bar Thranduil it looked like - maybe they used the magic of Radagast, lol.

Another thing is if they some how magically got their in a blink of an eye with the idea of helping the dwarves why then did they just completely turn away?

Sure Erebor is lost - the elves don't think they can take out a dragon - but then to not offer any kind of aid at all? Doesn't make sense if they went there to help, unless secrectly they disliked the elves all along and were only paying homage out of fear perhaps? And now wanted to claim some of the treasure themselves (thranduil being greedy and all).

Or more likely Thranduil - just thought - sod this, can't be bothered, lets go home. And so the elves are the ones completely to blame for the fractured relationship in the movie universe.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Mar 21 2013, 1:46pm

Post #22 of 65 (421 views)
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Really fast [In reply to] Can't Post

Shield surfing is Legolas s speciality.

Who do you think instructed him in the ways of elven acrobacies and speed? Wink

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Mar 21 2013, 1:47pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 21 2013, 2:06pm

Post #23 of 65 (404 views)
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Hey, it works for me! [In reply to] Can't Post

Plus, I quite like the idea of Carc warning Thranduil (whether it makes any sense or not). Wink

I never liked the Beacons scene simply because of the likelihood of it all. We just have to ignore reality sometimes.


imin
Valinor


Mar 21 2013, 2:10pm

Post #24 of 65 (392 views)
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I really liked the beacons scene [In reply to] Can't Post

Looked beautiful and didn't it take quite a long time to light them all? That is how i viewed it when watching anyway, certainly longer than speed of light Carc and Thranduil's men, lol.

But yeah i guess this is just a case of don't think about it too much or it ruins the movie magic.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 21 2013, 2:15pm

Post #25 of 65 (386 views)
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It's not so much the speed that's the problem [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the fact that lighting something like that on top of a mountain (with very little oxygen) is unlikely to ignite. There's also the fact that the wood would probably be damp (since they're snow capped). And all the Watchers seemed to be looking out all the time, which is handy!

Wink

Perhaps ... Carc gets the moth to get the eagles to get Thranduil. The moth seems to travel at the light of speed!

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