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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Dol Guldur plot
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Greypilgrim
Bree

Mar 20 2013, 1:54am

Post #1 of 30 (1637 views)
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Dol Guldur plot Can't Post

So who thinks the Dol Guldur storyline is going to be wrapped up in DOS and who thinks it will carry on into TABA?

I really don't know what to expect as there is so much the could do here, it could be amazing.

Gandalf has to be at the battle of the five armies so I'm not sure how they would handle having the dol guldur sequence carry on into the final movie.

Although I can see film 2 ending with Gandalf still trapped at Dol Guldur, imagine the suspense!! Then he gets rescued at beginning of film 3 by Galadriel who foresees the battle of the five armies. Then he takes Radagast's staff and a horse and hurries away to Erebor. What does everyone think?

Also where do you think the white council meeting in DOS will take place?


Joe20
Lorien


Mar 20 2013, 3:03am

Post #2 of 30 (1008 views)
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Possible [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Then he takes Radagast's staff and a horse and hurries away to Erebor.


Very possible, going by this picture... http://oi45.tinypic.com/282m8g1.jpg


Ardamr
Valinor


Mar 20 2013, 3:07am

Post #3 of 30 (1006 views)
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Into film 3 [In reply to] Can't Post

I just cannot see them ending their main secondary plot before the third film. Now, the plot may wrap into the BoFA somehow, but I think it won't be resolved until TABA. It just doesn't make sense.

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manw; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 20 2013, 3:20am

Post #4 of 30 (983 views)
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It has to go into TABA I think [In reply to] Can't Post

There is way too much going on in film 2 to wrap that there. Beorn, Barrels, Laketown, The Lonely Mountain, Smaug, Gandalf leaving for Dol Guldor and wrapping that up by the end of film 2 I just don't see happening. Besides, it would be weird I think flow wise. I think it has to be in conjunction with the Bot5A of sorts (not exactly at the same time but in proximity) so that we wrap the whole movie at once.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Mar 20 2013, 5:41am

Post #5 of 30 (952 views)
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i'm still wondering how they are going to spin the Gandalf/Thrain subplot.. [In reply to] Can't Post

since Gandalf seems so shocked when Radagast tells him about dol-guldur, but wasn't Gandalf there and thats how he found Thrain??


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


ThorinIIIStonehelm
The Shire


Mar 20 2013, 7:34am

Post #6 of 30 (940 views)
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I think it was more... [In reply to] Can't Post

Shocked because he had been there before and had only found a mad dwarf wandering about. No signs of witchcraft or anything. I don't know why he was at Dol Guldur when he finds him because I'm pretty sure he wasn't searching for Sauron like in the book. I have only seen it twice though so can't remember every single detail but that's my take on Gandalf's reaction.
Smile


moreorless
Rohan

Mar 20 2013, 9:37am

Post #7 of 30 (922 views)
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I suspect the Dol Guldor/White Council section might well differ from many expectations... [In reply to] Can't Post

The common expectation I see is that its going to be a "wizard battle" between Sauron(plus possibly the Nazgul) and the wise. I suspect what we may well get is a more drawn out situation where Dol Guldor itself is more of a "haughted house" and the real conclusion of the story is tied up with the BOT5A.

To me that seems like an exellent way of killing two birds with one stone, you bring both sides of the story together AND you give the BOT5A the setup that it lacks on the page. That Bolg is rumoured to be connected to Dol Guldor seems to strongly hint that this will be the case to me.

How about a series of events like this...

Gandalf investigates Dol Guldor in the DOS, discovers Thrain and Sauron and escapes after some kind of confrontation with the latter or the Nazgul.

In TABA the White Council desides to attack Dol Guldor(maybe with Lorien elves making up for the lack of coverage in LOTR?), Sauron see's them coming and uses it as a distraction to send his orc's(plus Azog) north to capture Erebor before fleeing to Mordor. Gandalf takes an eagle and goes on ahead to prepair the defence of Erebor.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Mar 20 2013, 3:04pm

Post #8 of 30 (854 views)
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Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post

The only reason I think the Dol Guldur subplot might be mostly wrapped up in DoS is that I recall hearing that Saruman would only be appearing in the first two parts (from an interview with either Christopher Lee or Peter Jackson). Now, this is assuming that Saruman actually takes part in the battle (like he does in the text). It's totally possible that the filmmakers could have Saruman abstaining from the battle, either because of Christopher Lee's age, or maybe as a way to hint at Saruman's future alliance with Sauron, or both. I was thinking that the battle of Dol Guldur would close out DoS similar to the way Helm's Deep served as a climax to TTT, and maybe they would tie up whatever loose ends there were in TABA, a la "The Voice of Saruman" scene in the beginning ROTK. But since they are associating Bolg with Dol Guldur instead of Gundabad, and Bolg is supposed to be a big part of the Bo5A, I could be totally off.


On a side note, I hope they don't kill Radagast off.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Mar 20 2013, 3:07pm)


Rostron2
Gondor


Mar 20 2013, 4:02pm

Post #9 of 30 (783 views)
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This makes the most sense why it would be wrapped up...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Arannir
Valinor

Mar 20 2013, 4:13pm

Post #10 of 30 (797 views)
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This is still how I think it will be. [In reply to] Can't Post

With Dol Guldur being the climax together with the Smaug/Bilbo coversation and Smaug leaving the mountain.

I also have a feeling that Radagast might die...


(This post was edited by Arannir on Mar 20 2013, 4:13pm)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Mar 20 2013, 4:22pm

Post #11 of 30 (777 views)
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but Gandalf said.... [In reply to] Can't Post

"the old fortress has been abandoned", Radagast replies; "No Gandalf, its not". So why would Gandalf say that if he found Thrain there?


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


NoelGallagher
Rohan

Mar 20 2013, 6:49pm

Post #12 of 30 (751 views)
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as for the White Council [In reply to] Can't Post

I can imagine we will see the tombs there as a flashback. That could work well,maybe as one or the last proof before the assault on DG, although its already in the Chronicles for AUJ. Thats my explaination for the late cut. What you think ?!


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 20 2013, 7:06pm

Post #13 of 30 (749 views)
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I really hope Saruman takes part in any attack on Dol Guldur, [In reply to] Can't Post

regardless of Christopher Lee's age, through the use of a stunt double, a digital double, and digital head replacement. Since such an attack will most likely take place in film three (which is my guess). the technology should be more than up to pulling this off completely convincingly. It would be a shame if Saruman weren't there, for both Christopher Lee and us Saruman fans.


moreorless
Rohan

Mar 20 2013, 9:22pm

Post #14 of 30 (724 views)
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The problem I see... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
regardless of Christopher Lee's age, through the use of a stunt double, a digital double, and digital head replacement. Since such an attack will most likely take place in film three (which is my guess). the technology should be more than up to pulling this off completely convincingly. It would be a shame if Saruman weren't there, for both Christopher Lee and us Saruman fans.



The problem I see with having Saurman there is less Lee's age which I agree could probabley be overcome with CGI and more how his presense would effect the material. The audiences foreknowledge of Saruman's fall naturally introduces a tension IMHO that could be distracting if present in the wrong scene, espeically since its a tension that cannot really be resolved.

To me it makes most sense for Saurman to appear again during another White Council meeting, be obstructive again but ultimately agree to take action without directlly taking part in the action himself. The way he was handled in AUJ seems to hint this to me, he may chair the council but in terms of trying to make an emotional connection with the audience he's really there more for Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond to play off. Were he going to be more deeply involved in the following films I suspect we would have seen a more intense back and forth between him and Gandalf.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 20 2013, 11:40pm

Post #15 of 30 (692 views)
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The interesting thing about Saruman here, [In reply to] Can't Post

at least to me, is that his hand eventually gets forced. At some point (the next film?) he's both looking for the Ring *and* working with the White Council. When the White Council decides to look into and later attack Dol Guldur, against Saruman's (inner)wishes, he has to join in to keep up appearances. That's what i'm looking forward to... well, that and cool wizard and elf battles.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 12:42am

Post #16 of 30 (678 views)
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Exactly... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"the old fortress has been abandoned", Radagast replies; "No Gandalf, its not". So why would Gandalf say that if he found Thrain there?



Ninety years earlier, Gandalf received the map and key to Erebor from a dying Thrain without learning his identity. This much must have already happened much as in the book because Gandalf has the map and key to present to Thorin. What may be different is that Dol Guldur might have been inhabited only by a band of Orcs (unknown by the wizard to be servants of Sauron) rather than by the Necromancer himself. Having killed or driven off those Orcs, he then thinks that the stronghold is abandoned. The only alternative that I can see is if Gandalf found Thrain someplace other then in the dungeons of Dol Guldur (in Moria perhaps).

The Council's attack on Dol Guldur almost has to happen in DoS. Tolkien places it at about the same time that the company escapes from the Wood-elvs, and I can't see Peter Jackson moving it too much later. At the latest, it should still occur before the Demise of Smaug. That said, the consequences of the assault could still be being dealt with at the start of TaBA, delaying Gandalf's departure beyond where Tolkien had suggested it.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 21 2013, 12:46am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 3:04am

Post #17 of 30 (649 views)
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He actually doesn't seemed shocked. His expression is more, "uh oh" than "What?! No!" [In reply to] Can't Post

He warily states that it is abandoned, but he seems not at all surprised to hear bad news concerning the place, as though he had suspected trouble all along but been unable to confirm anything. Neither Nazgul nor Necromancer will show themselves in any flashback of Gandalf at Dol Guldur long ago, rescuing Thrain. They will only appear when he goes to investigate.

In Reply To
since Gandalf seems so shocked when Radagast tells him about dol-guldur, but wasn't Gandalf there and thats how he found Thrain??


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 3:12am

Post #18 of 30 (665 views)
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He made it abandoned, or so he thought. He drove out Bolg and the orcs tormenting Thrain, [In reply to] Can't Post

and Thrain expired, and it seemed that naught else was there. After all, how else to know a place is abandoned than to have visited and found it empty?

In Reply To
"the old fortress has been abandoned", Radagast replies; "No Gandalf, its not". So why would Gandalf say that if he found Thrain there?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 3:22am

Post #19 of 30 (654 views)
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No, he wanted to attack. At that point he had discovered that Sauron was also searching near the river for the Ring, [In reply to] Can't Post

and he wanted to deny and proximity him further access to it, so he agreed to aid the counsel.

In Reply To
at least to me, is that his hand eventually gets forced. At some point (the next film?) he's both looking for the Ring *and* working with the White Council. When the White Council decides to look into and later attack Dol Guldur, against Saruman's (inner)wishes, he has to join in to keep up appearances. That's what i'm looking forward to... well, that and cool wizard and elf battles.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 3:26am

Post #20 of 30 (647 views)
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Exactly my thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

When he went, approximately a century earlier, nothing but orcs (and perhaps wargs) were encountered, and he drove them forcefully off. This would explain the piece on the toys that came out before the movie structure with change, that paired Gandalf with Bolg, and spoke of how Bolg was a badass who had never feared any foe, until he meets someone he did not expect (presumably Gandalf since it is FAR too early to pre-empt the Beorn fight, and why else have that comment when pairing those figures).

In Reply To

In Reply To
"the old fortress has been abandoned", Radagast replies; "No Gandalf, its not". So why would Gandalf say that if he found Thrain there?



Ninety years earlier, Gandalf received the map and key to Erebor from a dying Thrain without learning his identity. This much must have already happened much as in the book because Gandalf has the map and key to present to Thorin. What may be different is that Dol Guldur might have been inhabited only by a band of Orcs (unknown by the wizard to be servants of Sauron) rather than by the Necromancer himself. Having killed or driven off those Orcs, he then thinks that the stronghold is abandoned. The only alternative that I can see is if Gandalf found Thrain someplace other then in the dungeons of Dol Guldur (in Moria perhaps).

The Council's attack on Dol Guldur almost has to happen in DoS. Tolkien places it at about the same time that the company escapes from the Wood-elvs, and I can't see Peter Jackson moving it too much later. At the latest, it should still occur before the Demise of Smaug. That said, the consequences of the assault could still be being dealt with at the start of TaBA, delaying Gandalf's departure beyond where Tolkien had suggested it.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


moreorless
Rohan

Mar 21 2013, 6:16am

Post #21 of 30 (666 views)
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I'm not sure playing up the ring is a good idea... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
at least to me, is that his hand eventually gets forced. At some point (the next film?) he's both looking for the Ring *and* working with the White Council. When the White Council decides to look into and later attack Dol Guldur, against Saruman's (inner)wishes, he has to join in to keep up appearances. That's what i'm looking forward to... well, that and cool wizard and elf battles.



Given that it really cannot be taken anywhere what is really the purpose of playing up the ring? he or Sauron can't find it or know of its presense, Gandalf cannot discover that Saruman is looking for it.

If they were going to take that route then again I think it would be best to keep it minor and to not have Saruman himself present for too long to make sure it remains so.

Perhaps have Saurman aid the assult from afar somehow? maybe send underlings with exposives? that would cover "the devices of Saurman" from the text reasonabley well.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 21 2013, 9:24am

Post #22 of 30 (632 views)
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Oh... Cool, thanks. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been a while since i read the books, thanks for the info. Looks like i need to get them out again!


Imladris18
Lorien

Mar 21 2013, 2:57pm

Post #23 of 30 (643 views)
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Radagast [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope he survives so they can tie him in with the moth/eagles, even in LotR. Everyone seems to think that Radagast/Tauriel have good chances of dying, but I don't see it. There's already going to be a ton of death, and I don't see them killing off the child-friendly wizard who heals animals yet can fend off the Witch-King, and one of the few strong female leads, too.

Yeah, they showed Thror's head rolling, but he was on screen for like 10 seconds prior, and they didn't actually show the death scene, which is something that they'd have to show for the aforementioned characters.

That, and I think there's more to Gandalf saying that Radagast is a powerful wizard in his own way than just referring to his bunny sled. I think his "exorcism powers" shown on Sebastian will come into play later on.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Mar 21 2013, 3:59pm

Post #24 of 30 (627 views)
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Radagast and the moths [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder how they would tie that to Radagast though, since it's basically "Gandalf sees moth, talks to it, moth tells eagles, eagles come to the rescue". It sort of looks to me like they cut Radagast out of that equation. Though, it WOULD be cool if they could somehow figure out a way to do that. It could change the whole scope of the scene at the Black Gate in ROTK, when the moth shows up and two seconds later, the eagles show up. It would imply that Radagast DID aid the armies of the West, in his own way. I'm all for that, if they can do it right.

As for Tauriel, you are probably right. Tauriel is the manifestation of Philippa Boyens desire to add "feminine energy" into a story that does not need it at all, so I have a feeling Tauriel is going to be kicking lots of ass, saving a few hides, and will probably survive. If she DID die though, I wouldn't care a lick. She's non-canon, so they can do whatever they want with her, as long as it's within the bounds of Tolkien's world, and as long as she does not alter the course of the story in any way.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Mar 21 2013, 4:05pm)


Imladris18
Lorien

Mar 21 2013, 4:18pm

Post #25 of 30 (614 views)
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Radagast and the moths [In reply to] Can't Post

I just think the moth link would be a cool way to connect The Hobbit with the LotR trilogy, too. If Radagast can't be a direct link due to timing, I hope they at least hint at him having a hand in it somehow.

I'm okay with Tauriel as she isn't an unrealistic character as far as being lore-friendly goes. I'm looking forward to seeing how the character turns out.

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