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Still musing on Moria, Durin, Durin's Demonic/Balrog Bane, Thorin's ancestry etc. in this Hobbit/Bridge hybrid.

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 19 2013, 9:52pm

Post #1 of 10 (886 views)
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Still musing on Moria, Durin, Durin's Demonic/Balrog Bane, Thorin's ancestry etc. in this Hobbit/Bridge hybrid. Can't Post

I hear you. "When will you be done with this whole topic, AinurOlorin?" Well. . . when I see how it plays out is the most likely answer. lol.

If Moria had not been brought into these films, and they were not so clearly intended to be their own bridge into Fellowship (its officially a series now, not two distinct movie sets), and if Durin wasn't being name dropped every half hour, I wouldn't obsess on this. However, ALL of those things are present.

In a filmverse in which The Wise know there is a Balrog in Moria, and in which Gandalf is (as with the lore in this case) concerned about The Necromancer's nature and possible allainces. . . and further considering the proximity of Moria to Lothlorien, the power of Maia Demons and their lack of aversion to High Elves (as oppsed to specific servants of Sauron, all of whom have reservations about the likes of Galadriel and Glorfindel and even of Gildor), and also in which Moria has now been distinctly displayed in both film 1 An Unexpected Journey, and film VI The Fellowship of The Ring, and in which, in the latter case, The Balrog plays a hugely prominent and pivotal role, and is identified as, essentially, the long residing, ancient terror of Moria (as understood by at least two of our best known Wizards), and in which the first three films ( collectively the "Hobbit" ones) focus HEAVILY on Durin's folk and Durin's heirs. . . it seems increasingly inappropriate to fail to at least allude to and mention Durin's Bane. As I have said, featuring Moria in these films and NOT mentioning him at all leaves him looking like a thrown in for effect and convienince (boss fight to temporarily get rid of the powerful Wizard whose continued presence with the Fellowship would make its splitting less likely and its peril less pressing) gimmick, two dimensional and with no history beyond Saruman's brief mutterings.

A few fellow T OneRinger friends/lore learned and I have been playing around with ways in which that might be managed. Feel free to play along! Smile

Two hypothesis I'd considered (Michelle J. if you are reading, you know you and I have already examined the second of the pair lol)

All right, I misspoke. Three, but only two will I elaborate on. There is always a prologue possibility where Gandalf narrates on the Third Age history of Durin's folk and the misfortunes of the bearers of the greatest Dwarf Ring (seen on Thror's hand through the Erebor sequence, it has been visually verified), starting with Durin himself, and tracing things down to Thrain.


OR, more plausible, as less time consuming, less complicated etc.: At Beorn's in fireside rest, Durin is mentioned for the umpteenth time, and Bilbo finally asks what every layman has been wondering. . . "Ummm. . . who is Durin?"
Gandalf replies: "Durin is the eldest and most revered of The Dwarven forefathers, the foremost of their race. Throin is his direct heir and descendant. Durin reigned in Moria, the most ancient and sacred of The Dwarf Kingdoms (reitterating what Balin and Thorin have already said of it in An Unexpected), and the Fatherland of The Dwarven People."

Bilbo: "Well, what happened? Balin said Moria was abandoned, why did The Dwarves leave it."

Gandalf (presaging Saruman, as we know these films love to backwards refference Rings dialogue): "Moria was rich in Mithril, the most precius of metals. The dwarves tell no tale, for the horror of what befell haunts their darkest nightmares to this day, all these long centuries later. . . but they delved too deeply in their mining for mithril, and disturbed a thing of Terror, a Demon of The Elder Days: a mighty servant of Morgoth, The Great Enemy. The demon slew Durin in the very midst of his hall. The dwarves fought valiantly, despite their fear, but nothing availed them against the power of that dreadful foe. He slew them in great numbers and hunted their kings, until they abandoned Moria to his Shadow and Flame. The Dwarves wandered in exile until Durin's grandson came north and founded The Kingdom of Erebor in The Lonely Mountain. There Durin's line flourished from that time until the coming of The Dragon Smaug . . ."

Bilbo: "So Thorin's people are twice dispossesed. That is very sad. They seem almost plagued with ill fortune."

Gandalf ( brooding, thoughtful look McKellen does so well, and speaking more to himself than to Bilbo now): "Yes. . . a strangely persistent series of misforunes. . . and I begin to guess at the cause. . . ."

THAT gives you a creepy fireside tale, takes all of 2 to 3 minutes TOPS, and gives you some quintessential Dwarven history, Thorin ancestry, and proper set up for what is to come with Gandalf and The Balrog in, yes, Film IV, while also nicely setting things into the larger Necromancer related context. . . and, again, it doesn't eat up a bunch of screen time, or go wildly off on tangent.

Other possibility, this one discussed: Thranduil and Thorin interaction.

Thorin/Thranduil encounter the heated exchange might including the following accusations and rebuttals:

Thorin: "What explanation do I owe to any Elf, you least of all. You stood by idly when my people were driven from Erebor. You gave us not even the thought of aid when we attempted to reclaim Moria."

Thranduil: "Your hopes were vain, and your venture foolsih. What aid is it you think I could have given against a great dragon like Smaug The Terrible? And as for Moria. . . the attempt to reclaim it was more hopeless than you understand. Long ago your ancestors awoke an unspeakable Terror in that place; the dreadful Demon from which they fled after it slew Durin, the Patriarch of your House. Even amongst the greatest of my kind there are few with any power that would avail against such a foe. It was desperate madness that drove Thror to Moria, but there was never real hope. A king needs wisdom, Thorin Oakenshield. Durin's heir you may be, but an heir without proper sense is not fit to lead, and only a fool would think Erebor or Moria viable for reclaiming."

The Elves would resent the dwarves over the awakening of The Terror. About a third of Lothlorien's Elves, including its prince, fled at the arousing of The Balrog, fearing the Power of Evil that now stirred in Khazad-Dum. And news of it would have reached Thranduil. And one can almost hear him mirroring Elrond's words in Fellowship, but more scornful in the mouth of the Woodland King. "Your foolhardy people, driven by greed, seeking riches, caring nothing for the troubles of others. . . What thought did your forefather Durin or any of his heirs give to the effect their rousing of The Terror in Moria had upon my kin? You speak as a fool when you talk of going up in war, not merely against orcs and trolls, but against a Demon Captain of Morgoth, held over from the ancient world. Not all the armies of Khazad-Dum in the days of its glory availed Durin, and you would rush to share his fate, and have me share it as well. And now I catch you wandering in my wood, headed where? To Erebor? Would you challenge the Dragon with your little band? You would bring ruin on us all, Thorin Oakenshield. In your current frame of mind you are but a danger to yourself and others. . . ." And, detained.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Mar 19 2013, 9:56pm)


Hamfast of Gamwich
Rivendell


Mar 19 2013, 10:12pm

Post #2 of 10 (530 views)
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Even if nothing like this is in the film, [In reply to] Can't Post

People interested enough to think about these things can just assume it just happens off screen.

No one else will really notice, and if they do, they'll eventually encounter a Tolkien nerd who explains it to them.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 19 2013, 10:24pm

Post #3 of 10 (520 views)
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Curtain number two..... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I hear you. "When will you be done with this whole topic, AinurOlorin?" Well. . . when I see how it plays out is the most likely answer. lol. And I would expect nothing less.....................! On the whole, I rather like your second Thorin/Thranduil option. They need something to talk about, other than flinging various insults back and forth (beginning with out Thorin, of course) because the short text scene of a single, silent and unrecognized Dwarf being brought in is abandoned with the screeshot evidence of Thorin festooned with webs along with the Company. So provided they all come in together, Bilbo invisible in the shadows, listening....this would work most excellently well.
________________________________________________________________________________
Thorin/Thranduil encounter the heated exchange might including the following accusations and rebuttals:

Thorin: "What explanation do I owe to any Elf, you least of all. You stood by idly when my people were driven from Erebor. You gave us not even the thought of aid when we attempted to reclaim Moria."

Thranduil: "Your hopes were vain, and your venture foolsih. What aid is it you think I could have given against a great dragon like Smaug The Terrible? And as for Moria. . . the attempt to reclaim it was more hopeless than you understand. Long ago your ancestors awoke an unspeakable Terror in that place; the dreadful Demon from which they fled after it slew Durin, the Patriarch of your House. Even amongst the greatest of my kind there are few with any power that would avail against such a foe. It was desperate madness that drove Thror to Moria, but there was never real hope. A king needs wisdom, Thorin Oakenshield. Durin's heir you may be, but an heir without proper sense is not fit to lead, and only a fool would think Erebor or Moria viable for reclaiming."

The Elves would resent the dwarves over the awakening of The Terror. About a third of Lothlorien's Elves, including its prince, fled at the arousing of The Balrog, fearing the Power of Evil that now stirred in Khazad-Dum . And news of it would have reached Thranduil. And one can almost hear him mirroring Elrond's words in Fellowship, but more scornful in the mouth of the Woodland King. "Your foolhardy people, driven by greed, seeking riches, caring nothing for the troubles of others. . . What thought did your forefather Durin or any of his heirs give to the effect their rousing of The Terror in Moria had upon my kin? You speak as a fool when you talk of going up in war, not merely against orcs and trolls, but against a Demon Captain of Morgoth, held over from the ancient world. Not all the armies of Khazad-Dum in the days of its glory availed Durin, and you would rush to share his fate, and have me share it as well. And now I catch you wandering in my wood, headed where? To Erebor? Would you challenge the Dragon with your little band? You would bring ruin on us all, Thorin Oakenshield. In your current frame of mind you are but a danger to yourself and others. . . ." And, detained.
___________________________________________________________________ Very nice tie-in of the history, the current status and the relationship between not only Thranduil and Thorin, but of the Elves and the Balrog. I like the idea of Bilbo hearing it on his own, with no one to clarify, having to make his own judgement about both sides and what they have to say about each other and the Quest. Enhances Bilbo's growth too - no one can tell him what to think he will have to decide without wisdom from, for example, Gandalf. It opens up the door for a heart to heart between the jail bars, as Bilbo is deciding what to do..."Thorin, is that all true?" An actual discussion about something so close to Thorin's heart. And we get to see Bilbo make up his mind.


Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 19 2013, 10:29pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 20 2013, 5:00am

Post #4 of 10 (423 views)
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has possibilities. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Roheryn
Tol Eressea

Mar 20 2013, 9:30am

Post #5 of 10 (407 views)
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Interesting point, that. [In reply to] Can't Post

The idea that Bilbo might hear both sides of the story, and that, not having Gandalf there, he would have to make up his own mind. The more personal feud between Thorin and Thranduil, the larger and more ancient feud between Elves and Dwarves. The problem of the Balrog. Will Bilbo see the truth behind both sides of the story?

Would be really interesting to see things set up like this. I'd love to see Bilbo having to grapple with the morality here. Might explain better his behaviour at the Bo5A, when he ends up making his stand with Thranduil. After all, if PJ keeps that part of the story intact, we're going to need to see a good reason (I hope) for Bilbo's decision to stand with Thranduil then.


Arannir
Valinor

Mar 20 2013, 9:34am

Post #6 of 10 (427 views)
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You know, I am not a big fan of further Moria elaboration... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but I cannot deny that camfpire Gandalf/Bilbo scene has an incredible Middle-earth feeling to it ;)


THAT would work for me (IF they include the Dwarven Ring, which I am not sure about, yet).


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 2:12am

Post #7 of 10 (329 views)
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Indeed it would [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool Wink

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 2:14am

Post #8 of 10 (327 views)
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A good point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The idea that Bilbo might hear both sides of the story, and that, not having Gandalf there, he would have to make up his own mind. The more personal feud between Thorin and Thranduil, the larger and more ancient feud between Elves and Dwarves. The problem of the Balrog. Will Bilbo see the truth behind both sides of the story?

Would be really interesting to see things set up like this. I'd love to see Bilbo having to grapple with the morality here. Might explain better his behaviour at the Bo5A, when he ends up making his stand with Thranduil. After all, if PJ keeps that part of the story intact, we're going to need to see a good reason (I hope) for Bilbo's decision to stand with Thranduil then.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elessar
Valinor


Mar 21 2013, 4:02am

Post #9 of 10 (321 views)
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Keep at it [In reply to] Can't Post

I enjoy reading how this could play out. It will make for fun conversations either way.



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 4:18am

Post #10 of 10 (333 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

love engaging in them with you. Cool

In Reply To
I enjoy reading how this could play out. It will make for fun conversations either way.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

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