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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
The Lord of the Rings in 4K = better CGI
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QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 17 2013, 10:52am

Post #1 of 35 (5058 views)
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The Lord of the Rings in 4K = better CGI Can't Post

Among many other films, The Lord of the Rings is being considered as an early 4K (Ultra-high Definition) release when the new format is standardized. - mainly because all re-scanned footage was done in 4K.

However. Back in 2001, the standard resolution was 2K (HD). Therefore all the original digital files were rendered in 2K, including all special effects and colour timings.

I just thought that people would appreciate the heads-up that this is being considered and that, if it goes forward, we'll likely see some re-rendered, improved CGI and effects and yet another (hopefully better) colour-timing for the whole trilogy.

Purists may dislike this idea, as it's not the version presented at the cinema in 2001. But it should be acknowledged that the version shown in the cinema was in 2K at the very highest, so the current Blu-rays are already the best you're going to get.

In my opinion: As long as the original 2K versions are kept readily available (possible a remastered theatrical Blu-ray would be a good idea) Then the 4K release is a great opportunity to do a George Lucas and re-cut the film and, among other things, replace FotR's Gollum.

I think a 4K (possibly 3D) Special Edition and a 2K Theatrical Edition is a good way to keep both perspectives happy, and should really be the only 2 "definitive" options for fans.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 17 2013, 12:11pm

Post #2 of 35 (1934 views)
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I'd be be fine with this, [In reply to] Can't Post

and would actually look forward to it (though i'm not crazy about 3D). I would personally trust PJ to be more like Ridley Scott, and what he did with the masterful Blade Runner: The Final Cut, than George Lucas and what he did with the Star Wars Special Editions. Like you say, as long as the originals are readily available, i'd actually love to see LotR all souped up in 4k with re-rendered cg and brand new compositing, with a few tweaks here and there to bring all six films together visually. I'm sure Weta would be up to the task without screwing it up. Don't know how likely or feasible something like this would be, though-- it would be quite costly i would think.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 17 2013, 12:36pm

Post #3 of 35 (1805 views)
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And i like your idea [In reply to] Can't Post

of keeping the TEs as they are in a remastered 2K release, and the EEs be the "enhanced" 4K version. Since those two versions are already out there as two seperate entities, known and accepted by the general public, that would be a great way of keeping the originals just as they are and always have been, but still being able to give fans cool new jazzed up cuts of the films.

Though one would think that, if they do end up doing something like this, they might want to do a wide re-release in theaters for 3D, and if so, they'd want to do that with the TEs and not the EEs? Just a thought.


Kendalf
Rohan


Mar 17 2013, 3:46pm

Post #4 of 35 (1786 views)
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Likely? Possibly ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Among many other films, The Lord of the Rings is being considered as an early 4K release...

I just thought that people would appreciate the heads-up that this is being considered and that, if it goes forward, we'll likely see some re-rendered, improved CGI and effects and yet another (hopefully better) colour-timing for the whole trilogy.


"We'll likely see"? I'm not sure we can be quite that confident yet but, then, the studios' willingness to quadruple-dip we fans in the past may indeed suggest it's on the cards!!

I'd be happy with it. A uniform standard of CGI and a consistent colour-timing across the entire hexalogy would do wonders for unifying the work into a cohesive whole.

"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."


Kendalf
Rohan


Mar 17 2013, 3:53pm

Post #5 of 35 (1864 views)
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Yes, a visual continuity would be highly desirable... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i'd actually love to see LotR all souped up in 4k with re-rendered cg and brand new compositing, with a few tweaks here and there to bring all six films together visually.


Yes, this would be the primary benefit of a 4K re-master in my mind (more beneficial than the increased resolution). AUJ bears no relation whatsoever to LotR visually , so there's a major break there (assuming DoS and TaBA look the same) and the recent re-grading of the EE FotR has even resulted in a visual inconsistency within LotR now!!!

The sooner all six films have the same grading, the better.

"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 17 2013, 4:38pm

Post #6 of 35 (1814 views)
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So you're saying that LotR was [In reply to] Can't Post

basically shot in 35mm and scanned in 4K. But all the effects and compositing were done in 2K, and the end result was 2K? Or were the effects done in 4K (to future proof them i guess), but the master was done at 2K because that was the standard at the time? Because if all they had to do was go back and re-assemble all the 4K elements to make a 4K master, that's not such a big deal. But if the effects (all the digital doubles and models and matte paintings) were done at 2K, then all that would have to be re-done from scratch, which would be a massive (so to speak) undertaking, and hugely expensive.

EDIT: I hope all that made sense!


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Mar 17 2013, 4:39pm)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 17 2013, 4:41pm

Post #7 of 35 (1762 views)
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That's not what I meant by "likely"... [In reply to] Can't Post

The whole situation is in dispute at the moment and certainly not "likely" but possible. But if it does happen, what is likely is the new CG and effects. If you see what I mean?

So the CG and effects are the most likely outcome, even if the situation its self isn't all that likely

Now the word likely has lost all meaning haha.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 17 2013, 4:47pm

Post #8 of 35 (1849 views)
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The former... the effects are 2K and the film is in 4K [In reply to] Can't Post

4K CGI was simply too expensive at the time.

Absolutely, it'd be a huge and expensive undertaking. But it has been done before for films like Blade Runner. (in fact they further future-proofed them by re-rendering in 8k!). Of course, The Lord of the Rings is a bigger challenge than Blade Runner, and could potentially be one of the most expensive remasters ever. But similarly, Star Wars was undergoing the same treatment when they were converting it to 3D. So it's clearly not impossible. (although they did recently give up on Star Wars)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 17 2013, 4:48pm

Post #9 of 35 (1852 views)
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I do wonder whether a 48fps upscale is a possibility [In reply to] Can't Post

I know some TV's can imitate HFR by creating artificial frames. So I suppose some sort of upscaling process would give a better result. But I wonder how necessary it would be.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 17 2013, 4:53pm

Post #10 of 35 (1796 views)
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I've wondered this myself. [In reply to] Can't Post

I know it can be done, but i wonder if the quality is high enough for a feature film (probably not-- the upscaling my tv does looks terrible), but if not, how far off is it?


BrendanRawa
The Shire

Mar 17 2013, 5:01pm

Post #11 of 35 (1783 views)
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This is exciting [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love the movie's special effects to be enhanced, but not replaced.

The thing that scares me is that The Hobbit's CGI is much more cartoony and I don't like it much. It may be visually sharper, but I feel the LOTR has more realistic CGI.

But that CGI is getting a bit dated, so I would love an update, as long as the keep the same style.

The trolls must look the same, not like William, Burt and Tom. The wargs must remain the same, not like the ones in Hobbit.

Gollum can look like the Gollum in the hobbit, since they are essentially identical, except he is much sharper and more detailed in the hobbit. The eagles too remain similar enough.

The other creatures that don't appear in the hobbit (balrog, ent, mumakil, etc) should just be touched up like the trolls and wargs. No design changes, just enhancements.

Finally, the large CGI armies could use some touching up. In some of the zoomed out shots of the armies, you can tell they are digital. Especially in the two towers extended edition, in the added scene where the uruk-hai are destroyed by the huorns.

So if the CGI was simply replaced with designs that look the same, only sharper, that would be wonderful! Heart

But they should not change anything for the sole purpose of making it blend better with the hobbit...


(This post was edited by BrendanRawa on Mar 17 2013, 5:05pm)


Tigero
Rivendell


Mar 18 2013, 9:27am

Post #12 of 35 (1809 views)
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They would have to scan the originals at 4K and do all effects all over again [In reply to] Can't Post

But i love the idea, LOTR has some flaws and if they don't get radical it will get much better and more seamless. Oh wow now that i think about it... film in 4k, that will look so delicious but it might also make making effects harder. I hope to see Black gate sequence made better and Gollum look more like Hobbit's (now that you compare them, LOTR Gollum looks really out-of place). Eru bless film.

Pessimists have no disappointments.


Tigero
Rivendell


Mar 18 2013, 9:33am

Post #13 of 35 (1715 views)
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Why not? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But they should not change anything for the sole purpose of making it blend better with the hobbit...


Just think about a day-long, more or less seamless marathon! I don't feel like it would hurt anything, many films have been remade with much less change considering the huge leaps with technology comparing year 2000 and 2013. The Hobbit has perfect CGI and so Did LOTR, now they must come togheter.

Even simple fly-by's like Frodo, Sam and Gollum walking past the marshes were pretty ugly in LOTR, you could see them just drift in the ground, sometimes even moving to the waters. I guess they had to make it by hand back then and they didn't have much time, but now you can just track the image automatically in 3D space and position the adventurers there.

The more i think about it, the more awesome it gets, and what a chance to make LOTR 'fresh' once more.

Pessimists have no disappointments.


Kendalf
Rohan


Mar 18 2013, 5:14pm

Post #14 of 35 (1749 views)
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Hmm, HFR conversions, too? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I do wonder whether a 48fps upscale is a possibility...I know some TV's can imitate HFR by creating artificial frames. So I suppose some sort of upscaling process would give a better result. But I wonder how necessary it would be.



The quality of a TV's own upscaling is never quite as convincing, is it? Unsure It's having to look at the frame either side and then imagine and invent a frame in between so the effect is always inferior and, quite frequently in my view, a little unsettling!

If, however, PJ and Co. were to go back to the original files and create their own extra frames, I imagine they'd be of a much higher quality and therefore give a much higher standard effect. Not quite as lovely as The Hobbit's genuine 48fps, I suspect, but a passable imitation.*

Still, the mixed critical response to HFR, the enormous expense of creating these extra frames over 10 hours of film and the fact that the majority of blu-ray players at the minute (I think I'm right in saying so) don't actually have the capability to play at 48fps might just count against such a move!!! Laugh

*The amount of blur on the original 24 frames would surely be an insumountable hurdle, no?

"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."


Kendalf
Rohan


Mar 18 2013, 5:18pm

Post #15 of 35 (1693 views)
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Yes, enhancements only, please... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I would love the movie's special effects to be enhanced, but not replaced... The trolls must look the same, not like William, Burt and Tom. The wargs must remain the same, not like the ones in Hobbit...The other creatures that don't appear in the hobbit (balrog, ent, mumakil, etc) should just be touched up... No design changes, just enhancements.

Agreed Smile And I daresay WB's accountants agree, too.

"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."


Tigero
Rivendell


Mar 18 2013, 6:53pm

Post #16 of 35 (1747 views)
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A good looking 48fps upconversion is not an option [In reply to] Can't Post

The footage was shot at 24fps with 180* shutter, giving it way too much motion blur for decent frame interpolation.

Pessimists have no disappointments.

(This post was edited by Tigero on Mar 18 2013, 6:54pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Mar 18 2013, 7:19pm

Post #17 of 35 (1691 views)
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Does this mean... [In reply to] Can't Post

That we might finally get to see those deleted scenes!? That would be amazing Shocked

I feel like if they're going through all that other work, they might as well get some deleted scenes finished as well.

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin


Kendalf
Rohan


Mar 18 2013, 7:45pm

Post #18 of 35 (1676 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The footage was shot at 24fps with 180* shutter, giving it way too much motion blur for decent frame interpolation.


Exactly as I thought Smile

"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."


Kendalf
Rohan


Mar 18 2013, 7:49pm

Post #19 of 35 (1695 views)
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Another serious temptation for Jackson and WB, certainly... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That we might finally get to see those deleted scenes!? That would be amazing Shocked

I feel like if they're going through all that other work, they might as well get some deleted scenes finished as well.


Fingers crossed, eh? I don't think we'll ever see them incorporated into the bodies of the films, but, even as stand-alone Extras, it'd be a real bonus and another reason to buy the films for 1,367th time...

"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."


Ardamírë
Valinor


Mar 18 2013, 8:02pm

Post #20 of 35 (1672 views)
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That was my thought as well [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't plan (or really want) to see them incorporated into the films, but I do want to see them. Some things I really want to see wouldn't even make sense, such as the scrapped Arwen at Helm's Deep scenes or the Annatar scene.

Also, I don't plan to buy the films again unless I get these. My DVDs work just fine. WB will really have to make me an offer I can't refuse if they want me to shell out money for these films again.

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin

(This post was edited by Ardamírë on Mar 18 2013, 8:04pm)


Tigero
Rivendell


Mar 18 2013, 8:34pm

Post #21 of 35 (1696 views)
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I want to see Merri and Pippin's [In reply to] Can't Post

''Extremely high'' scene at Isengard. Laugh

Pessimists have no disappointments.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Mar 18 2013, 8:42pm

Post #22 of 35 (1664 views)
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Really? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have absolutely no desire to see Tolkien's pipeweed yet again referred to as marijuana.

"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin


glor
Rohan

Mar 18 2013, 9:27pm

Post #23 of 35 (1675 views)
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Bladerunner versus Star Wars remastering [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd go for Bladerunner. The film was simply touched up, remastered and given the make over necessary to give audiences a HD experience, with only slight editing from Scott, to perfect it, this was the only version of Bladerunner over which he had total control. The only exception as a single scene that was reshot (the chase scene with Zhora crashing through glass shop fronts) because Scott was never happy with the way it looked.

Despite this tweeks the film still looked and felt the same, the changes were so subtle, that only a diehard fan whom has watched and studied the film hundreds of times would notice but they were never distracting. In fact the only the audience noticed and discussed at the specials screenings of the Final Cut were Scott's lighting of the eye clues to whom was and was not a replicant and that was done with such subtlety and a light hand that it os debated as to whether it is a clue/conclusive.

Star Wars on the other hand was a far more contraversial remaster one that even those like myself whom had only viewed then original trilogy a couple of time noticed, Didn't Lucas do some jarring changes to tie in with the prequels?

I say just clean up LOTR concentrate on the tiny details that make the special effects and CGI obvious in HD and higher framerate screenings, don't change the look, just perfect the tiny visual details.

Oh and give us a bunch of extra never before seen deleted scenes; I want to see those famous filmed but never seen moments, Houses of the Healing, etc.


BrendanRawa
The Shire

Mar 18 2013, 9:27pm

Post #24 of 35 (1704 views)
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Because LOTR is vastly superior to the hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

If anything, the CGI in the hobbit should have their designs changed to be consistent with that of the LOTR.

The Hobbit newer tech on it's side, the LOTR has style and superior designs.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 18 2013, 10:03pm

Post #25 of 35 (1661 views)
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I absolutely love what Scott did in The Final Cut. [In reply to] Can't Post

Blade Runner has always been one of my favorite films (top 5 easily), and The Final Cut made me love it even more. I suggest everyone check it out-- the Blu-ray is spectacular.

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