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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Northern Mine Barrage :
Will Smaug end up...

Sinister71
Sailing Master


Mar 10 2013, 1:20am

Post #1 of 14 (710 views)
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Will Smaug end up... Can't Post

Being the main bad guy of the Hobbit story or will he end up taking a backseat to Sauron aka the Necromancer by way of Bolg or Azog in the BO5A?

I personally feel he will end up taking a backseat and turn out to be much less important than Azog or Bolg who will end up working for Sauron unfortunately Mad

With the direction Jackson is taking, thus far, pushing the whole Azog chasing Thorin situation into the story this early And with rumors of Bolg (who is Azog's son) being mentioned as the torturer of DolGuldur which is where the Necromancer resides, leading the army of Orcs/Goblins in the battle. Would that not if only indirectly make Sauron the main antagonist at the end of the day? Personally I hope something changes and it doesn't feel that way. But at this point it just seems like Jackson is more concerned with making Sauron the root behind everything happening to hinder the good peoples of middle earth.

I truly am hoping Smaug is the main bad guy for the whole of the films and the Necromancer ends up taking a backseat to the Bilbo's adventure part of the films. I think the Necromancer should be secondary but at this point it just feels like he will be playing a much larger role than he ever should have to begin with.

Given the facts we have already seen and what rumors and information have been heard about the rest of the tale Jackson is telling. What does everyone else think?


MouthofSauron
Sailing Master


Mar 10 2013, 1:28am

Post #2 of 14 (369 views)
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somehow i doubt Smaug will take a backseat in.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Desolation of Smaug. I just hope they conclude Smaug's stoyline in DOS rather than have us wait another year to see Smaug's death...


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


Sinister71
Sailing Master


Mar 10 2013, 1:39am

Post #3 of 14 (345 views)
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I hope just the opposite [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm hoping Smaug's death is near the beginning of TABA. I just think it would work better with DOS ending with Smaug leaving the mountain headed for Laketown after the Bilbo confrontation. Leaving the dwarves to search the treasure horde, thinking everything is good, not worrying about the dragon. end it on a happy note for the dwarves and a cliffhanger on where Smaug went. But over all I just have a feeling no matter where or when Smaug dies, Sauron will end up being made the main antagonist of the films. Over shadowing Smaug's involvement at all


cats16
Sailing Master

Mar 10 2013, 1:47am

Post #4 of 14 (339 views)
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Two reasons for me... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. The subtitle is the Desolation of Smaug.

I think we'll be shown exactly why Smaug is such a wretched worm, as he is described. Hopefully he will be a very sinister (not you Wink) character.

2. The last shot of AUJ is Smaug.

I thought this was a really interesting way to end the film. Because so many things keep happening throughout the film, Thorin & Co., as well as the audience, sort of forgets that Smaug is the "end all" of this journey. For any of the difficulties of AUJ to matter in the end, Smaug must be defeated. I think we are reminded of this as we see the Lonely Mountain before we leave the dwarves. It's like "oh yeah, we've still got to get past Smaug. Crap..."

So I sincerely hope that because Smaug's eye is the last thing PJ shows us for a year, we are going to be seeing a lot of him!


Roheryn
Boatswain

Mar 10 2013, 8:07am

Post #5 of 14 (231 views)
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How could [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug be the main bad guy for the entire trilogy? If he's not dead by the end of DOS (which I suspect is most likely), he'll be dead for sure by the beginning of TABA, leaving most of that movie Smaug-less. Sort of what Los Angeles aspires towards. That leaves the rest of TABA in need of some particular baddie who is out to get our heroes. Thus cometh Azog, or Bolg, or both. I suspect the connection will be made quite clear at some point that they're linked to the Necromancer, but I would be surprised to have Sauron taking an active role in BO5A. I expect he'll be directing Azog/Bolg offscreen, or at least from the sidelines, as it were. And I don't think that's too problematic: Tolkien never wrote that they *weren't* connected in some way to Sauron.


Arannir
Quartermaster

Mar 10 2013, 9:17am

Post #6 of 14 (208 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

he will be very prominent, also in the minds of people. I am sure they will try to build up some hype around him in the marketing of DoS.


Secondly, I am also pretty sure Smaug won't die in DoS. Boyens has stated frequently how interesting and unconventional it is that the death of your antagonist does not end the story but lead to the start of a whole new "issue".

I don't think, therefore, that they would un-link Smaug and the Bot5A but show the politics that his death sets in motion in TABA and end DoS after the conversation with Bilbo.

I think he was already the clear antagonist in AUJ for Bilbo and the dwarves, the looming shadow on the horizon, with Azog imho being the tool to give their journey more urgency and Sauron to create the link to Middle-earth in general. But this is the point, of course, where one's perception depends on whether one liked that change and addition or not.


(This post was edited by Arannir on Mar 10 2013, 9:18am)


dormouse
First Mate


Mar 10 2013, 9:30am

Post #7 of 14 (212 views)
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There's no way they will play down Smaug [In reply to] Can't Post

The story has handed them one of the most visually spectacular, larger-than-life characters any film-maker could wish for.

They've trailed Smaug at the beginning and end of the first film, which suggests to me that he's every bit as important to their version of the story as you could wish. Everything that happens is happening because Smaug took Erebor, and the consequences of what he did and what he was will continue to dictate events after his death. The Necromancer lurks in the shadows of The Hobbit and I think it's fair enough that they include him; what happens with and to him is very important to the wider story, but film is a visual medium and what could compare visually with a dragon?




BoromirOfWinterfell
Rigger


Mar 10 2013, 10:10am

Post #8 of 14 (209 views)
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Methinks Smaug was never really the main "threat" in the end. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not as if The Hobbit was : Go to a mountain, kill a dragon, go home. Nope; you've got the Battle of the Five Armies, and since Azog (or Bolg, if Azog isn't killed beforehand) should be at the Battle, he'll be one of the main antagonists there.

I think Smaug will be the main bad guy in DoS. My question is, will Azog be featured as much as in AUJ?

Something tells me that the Necromancer is going to play a larger part. I don't think he's being written in just for the fans' sake of a Sauron reference. Thing is, I can't possibly see how one can give him a bigger role. If he were to somehow initiate the "evil" forces in the battle, it would be completely straying from the book.

But if there's less Azog and more Necromancer, I really won't mind. But please don't make him appear at the battle. That is worse than Arwen the Warrior Princess at Helm's Deep.Crazy

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards because a refusal often offends." - Terry Pratchett



DanielLB
Captain


Mar 10 2013, 12:05pm

Post #9 of 14 (176 views)
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Regardless of what we think of AUJ and/or the the production team [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone knows what The Hobbit is about. They can ultimately add what they like, but at the end of the day they're quite aware that The Hobbit is a story about a hobbit's journey (with peripheral going ons that lead into the LOTR storyline).

I wouldn't worry (not yet anyway).


Arannir
Quartermaster

Mar 10 2013, 12:08pm

Post #10 of 14 (188 views)
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The good thing is... [In reply to] Can't Post

.... that the team eventually realized themselves that Arwen was better left somewhere else within the story. Plus, they have already once decided against having Sauron appear at a battle.

I have no reason to believe they will not show the same "wisdom" again Wink


Aragalen the Green
Gunner


Mar 10 2013, 3:15pm

Post #11 of 14 (157 views)
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Smaug as a back-seat driver [In reply to] Can't Post

is the image that popped into my head with your question!

Driver: Is this the right street?
Smaug: NO!

Poof of flame and smoke--vehicle reduced to ash and slag--Smaug: "I'll do the driving now!"

Nope. No back seat for Smaug. The Necromancer/Bolg/Azog scenes may be dramatic and sinister, but can they compete with flaming Smaug? I don't think so, and sincerely hope not!

'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


Lusitano
Sailing Master


Mar 10 2013, 3:47pm

Post #12 of 14 (166 views)
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Heres the gist of it [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug is one of the villains...he gets killed because he attacks laketown at the orders of the necromancer whose influence is extended even to the great worm, just like gandalf said would happen at the WC.

As Smaug dies, the necro lets out a terrible NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

The rabbits and hedgehogs of mirkwood feel shivers down their spine, Sebastian trembles inside Radagasts pocket and and the birds poop another kilo of feces in the brown wizards face.

Infuriated the necro sends out his minions to warn Azog to kill the meddling dwarf party at Erebor and drink their blood.

So, at the battle of 5 armies, which is an extended 35 minutes 3D sequence, we get elves and men and dwarves versus goblins of gundabad and misty mountains, Azog and his minions, bats and the nazgul representing the necro.

At Dolguldur the WC, assisted by the legions of the RRRRRRRosghabel RRRRRabits and the armies of the hedgehogs and birds assault the necros stronghold who slowly grumbles I SEE YOU to each member of the WC before fleeing with his tail between his legs ...

Gandalf faints and his Lady, Galadriel- cue recycled lothlorien Lotr music- brings him back to life.

Saruman is molested by some of Radagasts rabbits and reacts by kicking one or two with his staff, while a variation of the Isengard Theme plays, thus alerting the audience that hes EVIL.

Radagast decides to found a colony for the injured forest combatants somewhere in the wild where he cant be found and Gandalf travels North.

Elrond and Galadriel say farewell. Galadriel disappears while uttering Goodb........



Audience members ask : So......this is the hobbit?

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Mar 10 2013, 3:47pm)


Sinister71
Sailing Master


Mar 10 2013, 7:25pm

Post #13 of 14 (112 views)
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I really hope nothing of the sort happens [In reply to] Can't Post

 BUT at this point in time with all the departures Jackson has made SO FAR. The whole, wink wink, foreshadowing of the ring so far, being played up as something more than a simple trinket. The whole White Council subplot basically dedicated to finding out the Necromancers true identity. (Saruman pretty much dared Gandalf to find proof and the attitude of Gandalf's pretty much said he will go against Saruman to find that proof). Azog and Bolg's involvement with information given as Bolg being directly linked to Sauron as the "torturer of DolGuldur". I highly doubt Smaug will be as major a character in the overall scope of things which is a waste IMO. The goblins were after the treasure of the misty mountains or the dwarfs for killing the great goblin. But I never have once read anything Tolkien ever wrote about them being directly linked to the Necromancer. Any connection between the 2 IMO is Jackson taking advantage of creative license, further deviating the story of the Hobbit.

I think the BO5A should be something more about the ramifications of Smaugs death and have nothing to do with Azog's hate for Thorin or Sauron sending forces to take the treasure. It would, to me anyways feel very very forced and unnatural. Which something along those lines to me is just horrible writing, lack of imagination, and disrespect for the original source material IMO. I get that there are events that happen after Smaugs death but there really doesn't need to be some evil mastermind behind the Goblins or Orcs knowing of a unprotected dragon horde of gold and wanting it. Sauron doesn't need to be involved in all aspects of everything that goes against the good peoples of middle earth.


Lio
Able Seaman


Mar 11 2013, 2:32am

Post #14 of 14 (84 views)
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I hope they keep the Necromancer and BO5A plots separate [In reply to] Can't Post

As has been said there is likely a connection due to Bolg being at Dol Guldur, but I hope they don't play it up. I don't much like the idea of the Necromancer directing everything from behind the scenes (much less actually being present at BO5A!). Please keep the Necromancer side of the story separate!

As for Smaug, well, the story doesn't end when he dies so he'll have to be out of the picture at some point. But that doesn't mean that he'll take a backseat. I'm pretty sure his scenes will be awesome and he'll (literally?) go out in a blaze of glory. Wink And then we'll move on to the BO5A and the events that precede it.

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!

 
 

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