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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
At your first viewing, what was your impression of Thorin's angry speech/hug/apology at the end?
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ShireHorse
Rohan

Mar 7 2013, 9:33pm

Post #51 of 105 (314 views)
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Yes, we've all had this conversation before [In reply to] Can't Post

on another thread, JWPlatt. The Anger Hug is totally true to life and, if PB wrote it then she was writing as a parent. It happened to me when I was a child and I have behaved this way towards my own children. If they behave badly/dangerously - it doesn't matter if they had a reason - the first thing you do is shout at them out of fear for what might have happened and because you want to impress upon them that their life is what is at stake - and then, in a huge wave of relief, you hug them. Who does that? I do,

I could see it coming from a long way off in the film because I recognised the behaviour and the expected reaction, In this sense, one could call it a cliche or cheesey; but it is also very relatable for a lot of us because it is very true to real life. So, ignore what others are saying, nunilo, and just have faith in your own reactions to the scene.

And I think that Riven Delve is right over Bilbo having a very English reaction: he is your typical Englishman from Tolkien's youth - fussy and buttoned-up, pragmatic and sensible. The only time in the book that he reacts emotionally is after the Bot5A and then he hides in a corner to do it. Thorin, on the other hand is a dwarf, not an Englishman. He is a "less happy breed" as the hymns of Tolkien's day would have it about people not lucky enough to be born English, and so is allowed to show emotion.


(This post was edited by ShireHorse on Mar 7 2013, 9:35pm)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Mar 7 2013, 10:27pm

Post #52 of 105 (284 views)
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The Dynamic [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin had already told Gandalf Bilbo was on his own and not his responsibility. They were all saved and out of danger. The dynamic was nothing like a child in danger. Thorin was portrayed with Bilbo on the adult level so there was nothing to project as a parent onto that scene. The closest you could come to this dynamic is if your child actually saved you. Things like this sometimes happen in the news. I saw something recently where a child saved her mother's life during a heart attack with CPR learned in a school educational program. Now picture if that mother yelled at her daughter. Not likely. The mother's actual, consistent reaction was full of tears and gratitude from the start.

I do not believe Jackson/Boyens were writing as parents or the characters in a parent/child dynamic. They were writing that scene to manipulate and briefly fool the audience for effect - clear and simple.

I am a parent. I would not frighten my children in an already precarious situation to increase their fear and cause more lasting effects such as avoiding challenge or risk. I would also present a consistent emotional presence to avoid confusion. I do not do this because that's what my parents did. I do this because it was an intellectual decision born from observation and education.


Barrow-Wight
Rohan

Mar 7 2013, 10:29pm

Post #53 of 105 (286 views)
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I saw it coming even without my elf eyes [In reply to] Can't Post

But that doesn't mean I don't like it I loved it in fact. I just knew it was gonna happen cause it's been done before plus I saw the hug in the TV spots and watching the movie I knew that part hadn't happened yet remember: TRAILERS ALWAYS SPOIL


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Mar 7 2013, 10:41pm

Post #54 of 105 (272 views)
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Good Answer [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I saw it coming even without my elf eyes. But that doesn't mean I don't like it I loved it in fact. I just knew it was gonna happen cause it's been done before...


This is one of my favorite replies that contradicts my own opinion on something. It is refreshingly honest about a subjective matter that admits the cliché and being already wise to it. It's like a guilty pleasure that puts it on a personal level without trying to rationalize. That's what makes it honest. I can really appreciate that. Very nice.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Mar 7 2013, 10:47pm)


Barrow-Wight
Rohan

Mar 7 2013, 10:46pm

Post #55 of 105 (262 views)
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wow thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 7 2013, 11:57pm

Post #56 of 105 (257 views)
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If I tell you what I think [In reply to] Can't Post

I will probably crossed off quite a few peoples Christmas Card lists, so I wont..


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Mar 8 2013, 12:00am

Post #57 of 105 (243 views)
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Please do [In reply to] Can't Post

i am curious now!Cool

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 8 2013, 12:11am

Post #58 of 105 (266 views)
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On second thoughts ... [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought it was something Thorin would NEVER do.He is not the hugging type unless its female and he's had a few pints and he's got his Mead goggles on. At that point in the game he is not Bilbos best mate, he has still to wait until Bilbo saves him from the Spiders before he starts to value Bilbo, at this stage in the book Bilbo has done absolutely nothing to warrant a hug, Its far too touchy feely modern New Man stuff anyway. Thorin is not Metrosexual guy in touch with his femininity he is a rough tough bitter and haughty, yet bumbling leader of a rag tagbunch of losers, he is not some stompy brooding stud muffin.


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Mar 8 2013, 1:09am)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Mar 8 2013, 12:16am

Post #59 of 105 (249 views)
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In touch with his femininity [In reply to] Can't Post

haha, well said.

Agreed, i wish the real Thorin Oakenshield had been created for TH, not a aragornish stud muffin as you say...

Which actor would you like to see portrayed as Thorin? My choice falls on Ian Mcshane or Gabriel Byrne.

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


imin
Valinor


Mar 8 2013, 12:19am

Post #60 of 105 (237 views)
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Some people may act like this in real life [In reply to] Can't Post

Though i don't think that is the correct dynamic for Bilbo's and Thorin's relationship and i don't think it fits Thorin's character. Combine that with RA not quite pulling it off and it makes it all a bit of a mess. But he can't be blamed it was just bad dialogue to begin with.

Bilbo/MF does a good job of delivering his line and this is the one good thing about it all.

overall it is just one small scene which lasts about 1 minute in total. For me though it came when scene after scene had gone by getting progressively more irritating/worse so any chance i had of letting it slide as being a cliche but oh well let it go, went.

I understand why they added it though for the three film structure but it just wasn't natural, be that in dialogue or acting and felt awkward because of that. Ultimately there are worse things about the film which i am sure we will all talk about tomorrow, haha.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 8 2013, 12:26am

Post #61 of 105 (245 views)
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much as I like stud muffins *cough* [In reply to] Can't Post

and much as I like Richard Armitage, I think Thorin should be older and more world weary and more characterful, Gabriel Byrne has that craggy sort of face and piercing blue eyes that would be perfect for Thorin. thats a good choice you suggested.
I would have had Richard Armitage play a younger Dwarf like Kili, he would have made a fine younger Dwarf and I have no beef with him at all, but apart from his expressive eyes I dont get a lot about Thorins character yet, maybe that will come later, and obviously he has to act with the lines he is given.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Mar 8 2013, 12:40am

Post #62 of 105 (220 views)
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I think Gabriel would be a wonderfull choice [In reply to] Can't Post

a very talented actor, with a great voice, a good sharp nose, piercing blue eyes, a craggy sort of face as you say, and most of all he has showed that he can play a wide range of characters with great personality and real acting chops. Some days ago i watched a viking series with him and just 6 minutes with onscreen are more engaging than RA's Thorin for a full film.

Ian Mcshane would certainly bring that older, wearier, rough quality to him...

As Kili? I dont know...Kili is actually more alive than Thorin i find...but maybe...

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Mar 8 2013, 12:41am)


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Mar 8 2013, 12:46am

Post #63 of 105 (218 views)
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Hope [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't remember seeing Thorin react to the thrush, but the idea that it allows him true hope for the first time is an interesting one. I had just dug up Unfinished Tales and had gone straight to "The Quest of Erebor" when I came across this nugget:

"...and a great anger without hope burned in [Thorin], as he smote the red iron on the anvil."

(Just so you all know I do not spend all my time blowing off work and hanging around here...Wink)


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 8 2013, 12:53am

Post #64 of 105 (216 views)
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Watch for it on DVD [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


(Just so you all know I do not spend all my time blowing off work and hanging around here...Wink)



Well Riven Delve that's not the worst thing....Wink !


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 8 2013, 1:43am

Post #65 of 105 (197 views)
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Same! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

(Just so you all know I do not spend all my time blowing off work and hanging around here...Wink)


Oh me either me either! Noooooo sireee! ::whistles::
Blush

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


marillaraina
Rohan

Mar 8 2013, 1:51am

Post #66 of 105 (202 views)
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reaction [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I felt wry smiles or nodding heads would be the appropriate reaction.


Kili and Fili reacted that way, Kili gave a small smile, Fili nodded his head. I did notice Bifur giving a good copy of an 80's teen movie fist punch in the air in the background(but he has an ax in his head so I figured it was excusable) but I do think Dori patted someone on the back, but did the other dwarves do that too?


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Mar 8 2013, 3:18am

Post #67 of 105 (187 views)
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I have no idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously, I was feeling so shellshocked at how much I loved this new movie that I have very little recollection of any first impressions of anything, beyond just "WOW!" I think my impression of the apology/hug was something like "OMG I DON'TWANTTHISMOVIETOEND!!!!".

On *subsequent* viewings, however, I love it. Maybe I don't watch enough movies to find it cliched, because I don't. I understand Thorin's reaction -- he's still reeling from the intense emotions of finding out that Azog yet lives and having fought him, and his last interaction with Bilbo had been in a scene where he (Thorin) had just been proven utterly wrong (Thorin declared Bilbo long-gone, but Bilbo wasn't) and a rather bad judge of character -- such humiliation doesn't go over well with him. And now Bilbo's saved his life. He hasn't yet had time to process all that's just happened, and he's still acting out of heightened emotions. He's mad at himself, and in a way that I understand perfectly, he's mad at Bilbo for the humiliation -- but he's man (dwarf?) enough to own up to his mistake and apologize. And the hug? Well, even Dwalin is capable of hugs (at least, with Balin), so it seems fine right there.

And I'll never, ever, get tired of watching Thorin-hugs, so really, no complaints from me. Smile


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 8 2013, 5:36am

Post #68 of 105 (175 views)
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I almost entirely agree. THe only light I can see it in is Thorin having [In reply to] Can't Post

the type of personality that would make Bilbo and the others REALLY appreciate his coming around moment, by making it seem like he wasn't going to. Yet, that COULD have worked, if more transition had been allowed. He at least has to acknoledge the prank part of it, and then segue from false anger, through humour into sincere apology. "Did I not say those thing?!" Insert growing smile with, "how wrong I was . . ." OR straight faced, reflective, confessing, "I was wrong to say them. Your courage has humbled my assumptions, and I ask your pardon . . ." THEN you transition to a hug.

Without transition, it feels exactly the way you say. Like a really bad attempt to fake out the audience. There were lots of ways to do that reconcilliation scene that would have rang true. I don't think it was an awful scene. Yet it could have been a truly good, potentially even a powerful scene, and it was not.

Also, Gandalf's entrance into Goblin Town is MAGNIFICENT!!! I feel I always have to distinguish that excellent part from the antics which followed. lol

In Reply To
I saw it coming a league away. That's not good. As the scene unfolded, I grew more and more incredulous that someone like Sir Peter Jackson would stoop to such lows as trying to fool an educated audience with such a second-rate Hollywood trick. This kind of writing where a character behaves in a schizophrenic manner to be angry one moment and then all smiles the next is sitcom material from TV hacks with no better ideas for cheap laughs. It is meant for one thing, and one thing only - to misdirect the audience for dramatic or, far more typically, comedic effect. I suppose it could also be used for exceedingly dangerous characters like The Joker in Batman to dramatically increase the level of threat from an unbalanced and unpredictable character. The fact that this was used for drama and not farcical comedy or parody (think Spaceballs) made it that much more unbelievable. If someone produces a parody of The Hobbit to make fun of Thorin, they could leave in this scene intact.

So we have the Anger Hug. Who does that? Really? The fact that is was clearly meant to fool the audience brought me immediately out of the movie, for these things are only meant to manipulate. They are not in any form a moment of true character, unless it is a moment from a movie like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest where someone is just batpoop crazy. You know, people in an insane asylum who might actually behave that way. I felt my intelligence insulted and director's hand on my shoulder behind me, whispering, "Haha! Fooled you!" No. You didn't. And I was very disappointed in the attempt.

But putting it in perspective, Radagast's loony birdpoop, crossing eyes, and smoking ears was worse.

The rest of the movie, except the Goblin Town video game and excessive and juvenile troll snot, was just fine. It has a lot of enjoyable, repeat viewing potential at home.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Mar 8 2013, 5:39am)


Súlimë
Rivendell


Mar 8 2013, 5:38am

Post #69 of 105 (173 views)
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My reaction [In reply to] Can't Post

"This is so clich--- awwwwww" :)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 8 2013, 5:55am

Post #70 of 105 (163 views)
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For the record, I am not against things being cliche' or predictable if they work and are fitting. [In reply to] Can't Post

Many things become cliche` simply because they do work, or are the most reasonable response or solution, or are generally true and valid. Unexpected can be wonderful, but doing the unexpected solely for the sake of being different can be another type of cheap trick. I wouldn't have wanted the trolls portrayed as androgynously beautiful Calvin Klein models just for the sake of being novel.

The problem here was that it was predictible, yet intended to misderect. The only reason I do not call it an abject failure is because I have not decided whether it was really Peter trying to fool the audience, or just him portraying Thorin trying to fool Bilbo. Even if it was the latter, I think it could have been better handled.

In Reply To

In Reply To
I saw it coming even without my elf eyes. But that doesn't mean I don't like it I loved it in fact. I just knew it was gonna happen cause it's been done before...


This is one of my favorite replies that contradicts my own opinion on something. It is refreshingly honest about a subjective matter that admits the cliché and being already wise to it. It's like a guilty pleasure that puts it on a personal level without trying to rationalize. That's what makes it honest. I can really appreciate that. Very nice.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 8 2013, 5:57am

Post #71 of 105 (181 views)
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He saved his life. That merits hugging. And hugging is not really metrosexual. [In reply to] Can't Post

The firm handshake is a modern thing as well. In ancient times men embraced, and the kissing of faces and rings was far from unheard of. I don't have a problem with the embrace, I have a problem with the attempt to hoodwink the audience which proceeded it.

In Reply To
I thought it was something Thorin would NEVER do.He is not the hugging type unless its female and he's had a few pints and he's got his Mead goggles on. At that point in the game he is not Bilbos best mate, he has still to wait until Bilbo saves him from the Spiders before he starts to value Bilbo, at this stage in the book Bilbo has done absolutely nothing to warrant a hug, Its far too touchy feely modern New Man stuff anyway. Thorin is not Metrosexual guy in touch with his femininity he is a rough tough bitter and haughty, yet bumbling leader of a rag tagbunch of losers, he is not some stompy brooding stud muffin.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


tolktolk
Lorien

Mar 8 2013, 10:02am

Post #72 of 105 (159 views)
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The whole premise of the scene [In reply to] Can't Post

annoyed me. Why should Bilbo have to stand there being berated by this oaf just so we could all discover that (surprise, surprise!) under that gruff exterior Thorin is really just a softie at heart? And why would Bilbo be grateful to be manhandled by a big grubby dwarf? As he said to the trolls, have you smelled them recently?

What made me laugh about the angry hug was that I could picture the writers cackling to themselves about the reaction it would cause among all the crazy shippers. And they were right - they love Thilbo (almost as much as they love Durincest between Kili and Fil .... aaargh!)

Speaking of shippers, Martin Freeman was on Graham Norton's Comic Relief chat show last night, and Norton started waving around obscene Sherlock/Watson fanart. Martin was cool and just laughed and said he had seen it, but Richard Curtis, who was sitting next to him looked totally traumatised! At least the Hobbit fanart - so far anyway - doesn't seem to be quite so weird ...


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Mar 8 2013, 10:15am

Post #73 of 105 (154 views)
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*gets out fondue forks* [In reply to] Can't Post

Apparently, there's quite a feast to be had here. Yum!

LOL, dernwyn. Laugh


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Mar 8 2013, 10:45am

Post #74 of 105 (142 views)
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Too soon [In reply to] Can't Post

My reaction was "This is happening way too soon but I guess they need an ending."

By too soon, I mean Thorin warming up to Bilbo and the Dwarves starting to appreciate him. In the book, this doesn't start to happen until he saves them from the spiders. They couldn't wait that long when the story is being spread across more than one film so I understand why they did it. But it's one of the moments that make me roll my eyes and wish this wasn't a trilogy.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Mar 8 2013, 10:52am

Post #75 of 105 (134 views)
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This. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My reaction was "This is happening way too soon but I guess they need an ending."

By too soon, I mean Thorin warming up to Bilbo and the Dwarves starting to appreciate him. In the book, this doesn't start to happen until he saves them from the spiders. They couldn't wait that long when the story is being spread across more than one film so I understand why they did it. But it's one of the moments that make me roll my eyes and wish this wasn't a trilogy.



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort





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