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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Has Mr. Jackson shown any signs of contrition?
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 6 2013, 5:21pm

Post #51 of 240 (746 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

Well put. One person's horrible reaction is another person's dream. this is why it's the arts. I can accept that some don't like the movie. I think that's fine. It's all about whether you like something or not. This film is not Tolkien's vision. It's Jacksons. he bought the rights and makes the film according to his vision. People can like it or not, but it's not their vision it's his.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Elessar
Valinor


Mar 6 2013, 5:26pm

Post #52 of 240 (756 views)
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That's why [In reply to] Can't Post

beauty is in the eye of the beholder. lol You're going to get a mixed bag of results I think with any movie and especially a movie about books many of us love so very much.

I love The Hobbit (both book and movie). Book Thorin has far more moments where he is a jerk far more often than he isn't. Now, as Balin says in the movie he has all the right in the world to be that way. It helps to be honest make him a sad figure and one you feel bad for because of what has happened to him, his race, and his family. Movie Thorin is a more likeable character from the start. He still comes across as a Jerk but I think he comes across a bit sadder and more likeable. The ending with Bilbo Ioved that scene to be honest as it helps show Thorin has a good heart not hardned by life. So Jackson going that route I think in the end was the better route despite the misgivings of some.

As far as Azog. I think he looks cool and all that. I would have preffered he die at the battle with Bolg being the main bad guy (they should have shown the Balrog) but I will roll with it and not let that ruin things for me. I feel bad that some really didn't like this film that it didn't meet expectations just because you feel that way doesnt mean that your way is fact. That's something both sides of the arguement should remember.



Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 6 2013, 5:28pm

Post #53 of 240 (737 views)
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This is the deal [In reply to] Can't Post

There are parts of the movie and Jackson's vision I didn't much care for: The slapstick humor is an example of that. I also didn't care for the CGI Azog (The character I liked, I just thought the CG wasn't that great). Nonetheless I can appreciate his overall story and vision and I think it worked for me. Again, it's my experience. Others experiences are different and I respect those.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


bborchar
Rohan


Mar 6 2013, 5:29pm

Post #54 of 240 (770 views)
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Oh FGS, who cares? [In reply to] Can't Post

He didn't commit a crime, he made a movie. If you didn't like it, so be it. Many directors have butchered source material far worse and didn't get nearly as skewered. If this hadn't been the movie he wanted to make, he wouldn't have made it. He's not going to feel bad about it, nor should he. Some people just need to let it go.


Elessar
Valinor


Mar 6 2013, 5:35pm

Post #55 of 240 (731 views)
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I can deal with that [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with ya. There are things in all four films so far that I don't like. I don't mind some of the humor but sometimes he goes a bit far belching, close up drinking, snot in the soup, bird poop. Some of that is ok all of it is too much and its the same way in The Lord of the Rings. I loved the way Azog looked (can't wait to get a statue from Weta). I can understand and roll with those not liking him. I'm with ya. I love reading others experiences but the most important one is my own.



macfalk
Valinor


Mar 6 2013, 5:37pm

Post #56 of 240 (728 views)
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Less than The Hobbit. Far less. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 5:41pm

Post #57 of 240 (781 views)
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If PJ pandered to critics [In reply to] Can't Post

we would have a lot more "girl power" in the way of sexualized scenes, completely altered female roles; some sort of "social agenda" (take your pick as to the flavor of the day) and a tightly compacted story eliminating the majority of charactar development which we have seen. My basis for this? Read the other proposed treatments over the years. Read about the one film LOTR, with Sean Connery as Gandalf, openly stating that (as far as the material) he "didn't get it". Cut to out present day state, where we are BLESSED I repeat BLESSED with a Gandalf who had a pocket sewn into his robes to carry the works with him. (Wiping a tear here. We love you, Sir Ian, we really do.)

As someone in love with ME for over twenty years, I shudder deeply friends, at what could have been.

I have always rather shaken my head at the CT stance that Sir PJ has "eviscerated" the works. Its easy to say, I think, from a distant ivory and academic tower. We must be realistic and acknowledge that MONEY and profit is why we have an entertainment industry. Indeed art for arts sake is an emotional goal, but to get what we as fans want, we must have a financially successful franchise. You don't get WETA class work, a talented cast, a heavenly soundtrack, without the bankroll or the clout. So I think Sir PJ and Co. has a sharp knife edge to dance on: ensuring as much of the integrity of the source material, even if in spirit, while producing a work that appeals to an audience of people other than TORn's membership. And for those who want more literalism, I must repeat what I have said before: its a different medium. No one goes to a theater to watch blocks of text scroll by, and Howe and Lee don't draw paragraphs, they draw interpretations.

I listen to critics for as long as I can. Which isn't long. As a long-time fantasy and sci-fi fan I have learned that the age-old bias against the genres remains. I have to chuckle though because the critics who now left-handedly use LOTR as a club to denigrate AUJ were the very ones mercilessly bashing FOTR and TTT when they came out. So as far as this fan goes they can take that compliment and...well hit the road, to stay G-rated. The throat-lock of an Oscar sweep for ROTK has changed their position a bit, but not much, as I think we see. How many reviewers got huge details wrong? How many still walk in with the low opinion of fantasy? One super example was one review discussing the "troll-laden" AUJ...laden? LADEN? One scene? Makes you wonder how long that one stayed for, or how much time they spent texting during the film.

So, apologize? No, unequvocally no.

I agree, Ainur Olorin, about the push for HFR. But I think it was done in good faith. The fact that it seems to be a polarizing sort of force based on individual perception remains a dividing issue. I posted about the HFR vs 3D vs 2D success a few days ago; most of the info seems privilieged and we will have to see how the tech goes forward. So giving critics 2D for DOS and TABA may be a better plan, this I grant you. More focus on the film itself will serve us.

But if Sir PJ came out and said - I never apologized for.... I would interrupt and say, NO....and you will never have to.


(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 6 2013, 5:44pm)


Lindele
Gondor


Mar 6 2013, 5:59pm

Post #58 of 240 (739 views)
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Wow [In reply to] Can't Post

no words...you are good at this
Well done.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 6 2013, 6:05pm

Post #59 of 240 (730 views)
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erm you are putting words into my mouth [In reply to] Can't Post

"these are the performing arts. Your saying that it isn't doesn't make it so"

I never said PJ was not an artist. I said he is not the artist who wrote the books. He did not write the books Tolkien did, therefore he is using someone elses work of art to promote his own, therefore he has a duty of care. He cant just alter the original because it suits him without people complaining. You dont take the Mona Lisa and paint a moustache on because you think she needs 'modernizing'.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 6 2013, 6:06pm

Post #60 of 240 (732 views)
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That was awesome Brethil [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly 100% spot on.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 6 2013, 6:12pm

Post #61 of 240 (713 views)
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Yes however [In reply to] Can't Post

It is his vision. Not yours, not mine, nor anyone else's. It's his. He gets to decide what the vision is as he has the rights to the material. You may or may not like it, but in the end it's his vision. That's the way adaptation works. Your feeling that he has somehow violated Tolkien or committed some heinous sin against the source material is not my view. I respect your view, but it is not mine nor that of many others.

So we will agree to disagree on this. I for one enjoyed it, with the things I disagreed with, and will look forward to the other two.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 6:23pm

Post #62 of 240 (707 views)
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Thanks Lindele [In reply to] Can't Post

It's close to my heart.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 6:26pm

Post #63 of 240 (709 views)
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Very true Ham Sammy [In reply to] Can't Post

and loving the source material but agreeing to disagree is what keeps this community together. I am with you though, and cannot WAIT (though I will in the pursuit of quality) for the next two!

Thank you for the compliment. Afraid I came off a bit hot there but, as I posted to Lindele it's a very present topic for me.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 6 2013, 6:36pm

Post #64 of 240 (682 views)
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I didn't feel it was hot at all [In reply to] Can't Post

It's because we all love the source material. All of us. The opposite of Love is not Hate. The opposite of love is indifference. In order to hate something, you have to care on some level. If you don't care at all, you are passionless. All of us here post and discuss because we have a passion and love for the material.

So I say all opinions are good. No one is threatening anyone and everyone is expressing their opinion. All hail to our Founding Fathers at least for me as an American. Open, honest and opinionated discourse is important and what fuels the crucible of knowledge.

My favorite founding father, James Madison said " Knowledge will forever govern Ignorance and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power that knowledge gives.

Well said Mr. Madison.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 6 2013, 6:46pm

Post #65 of 240 (705 views)
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*girl power*? [In reply to] Can't Post

so what is Tauriel? other than pandering. and a completely altered female role. I bet she falls in love with Kili too.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 7:05pm

Post #66 of 240 (685 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

she's an addition, it's not alteration of a canon character, so I don't mind her all that much. (Haha, the height issues alone make the romance idea a bit comic....)Wink But seriously I don't think it's a franchise-breaker.

But it's back to the knife edge again, balancing wider appeal vs purism. We have to pay perhaps in small ways to get to the larger prize. Or all we would have are those (some half-finished) animations of yore which have their own issues different than this franchise. From an adaptation perspective I am prepared to go in with an open mind. I remember back in the day when there was talk of a scene involving Aragorn and a horse - and people FLIPPED out. Quite literally. Now we see how it works to give Aragorn depth. So I'm able to go forward on faith here, because of what we have been given. I think mathematically the canon spirit and presentation is in our favor as fans.

For the record, there are things I didn't love. But I can absorb them to have the rest of it, which to me is joyful, especially after so many decades of having next to nothing.

Bombadil posted a story a few weeks ago about his "knowledgeable" friend who walked out of FOTR because the sequence was changed, and never went back. Metaphorically it's like cutting off an arm, and never feeling anything good with it again, because a finger was crooked.


(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 6 2013, 7:08pm)


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Mar 6 2013, 7:08pm

Post #67 of 240 (677 views)
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They are on the lookout for padding [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
3 Films - no matter how exciting, action packed, well paced, or what the story arc is for the film(s) critics will complain that one book should not be 3 films, because they cannot get that idea out of their heads once it is put there.

I also believe this has a lot to do with the mixed reactions. Many of the critics are convinced that the three-movie-split amounts to nothing more than a huge money-grab, and because of that, they are going to make a big deal out of any perceived padding.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 6 2013, 7:11pm

Post #68 of 240 (674 views)
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I think that's true [In reply to] Can't Post

Although honestly, logically the thinking makes no sense. For one thing, it's not like Peter Jackson needs money. So it has to really be for another reason. Also, he really didn't want to direct these films and had to after Del Toro stepped out. I agree with you though that that's the take on it by some. I just think with all the trials and tribulations associated with making a film like this, it would have been much easier to slap two movies together instead of 3 and call it a day. Jackson has to be motivated by something other than money.

He never had to make a film again after LOTR.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


jtarkey
Rohan


Mar 6 2013, 7:23pm

Post #69 of 240 (698 views)
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I apologize but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I really don't like the logic that since TH is not LOTR, it couldn't ever be as good. That's simply not true. The great thing about the art of film, is that you can be so creative with it. There are so many different ways you can take a story, or an adaptation that the possibilities for level of quality are pretty much infinite.

I will say though, Jackson has no duty to comment on the backlash from critics. The best thing he can do at this point is stand by his work. However, I really hope he takes some of the criticisms seriously, as I feel some are not being overly harsh, but just pointing out problems that a lot of people had with the film. It can only be used to fine tune the next two films.

Although I have heard comments from Richard Taylor, and other technincal artists on the film who said it was very rushed. Weta apparently only had a few weeks of pre production.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Lindele
Gondor


Mar 6 2013, 7:31pm

Post #70 of 240 (666 views)
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I often wonder [In reply to] Can't Post

if the words 'good' and 'epic' are used interchangeably. The Hobbit would never be as epic as LOTR in that the sense of danger and what is at stake is much lighter. But that doesn't mean that it can't be as good.

Also, Weta may have only techincally had a few weeks of pre-production time to start building the designs etc but this film was in pre-production for YEARS. The designing began back in 2008 at least.


jtarkey
Rohan


Mar 6 2013, 7:37pm

Post #71 of 240 (649 views)
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That's true. I wonder as well [In reply to] Can't Post

I never wanted, nor expected TH to be as epic as LOTR. But you can make a film about a piece of cheese, and if you do it right, you can wow a lot of people. So quality is not dependent on content at all.

And I believe that most of the pre-viz work done back in 08' was for Del Toro. I know Jackson kept a few things here and there, but it was basically back to square one once he left the project.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Mar 6 2013, 7:37pm

Post #72 of 240 (650 views)
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My opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course I have no inside information on the subject, but I feel like once he got the ball rolling on The Hobbit, he didn't want to stop. I think adapting Tolkien's world to the big-screen brings out his inner child, and so he couldn't help but be a little self-indulgent. Just my opinion.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Mar 6 2013, 7:39pm)


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Mar 6 2013, 7:40pm

Post #73 of 240 (646 views)
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This is why I think films 2 and 3 will fix some things [In reply to] Can't Post

he had to go back to square one for film one and get it to print. Although they film out of sequence it allows some time with films 2 and 3 and I am looking forward to see what happens with it there.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


glor
Rohan

Mar 6 2013, 7:49pm

Post #74 of 240 (648 views)
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Nicely put [In reply to] Can't Post

If my memory serves me correctly didn't PJ walk out of his his original pre-New Line film deal for LOTR because, PJ was told, by a certain litigious producer to turn Samwise into a female character to provide a love interest for Frodo, amongst other aberrations .

This was when PJ was a cult director in New Zealand and had no clout or money and he had the integrity to walk away. Yes as a director he has his faults but he has demonstrated that he also has integrity and a significant level of respect for the source material. Not enough for some, I know but far more than many directors in Hollywood.


Balderdash Baggins
The Shire

Mar 6 2013, 7:50pm

Post #75 of 240 (628 views)
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I should hope not [In reply to] Can't Post

After years of frustrating delays, he created a wonderful film (the first of three) which has become only the 15th movie to ever earn over a billion dollars at the worldwide box office. I can't imagine why he would feel the need to show any contrition whatsoever.

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