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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 6 2013, 12:32am
Post #1 of 18
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Are Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur are related to Thorin in the film?
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I'm wondering about these lines:
Gandalf: "Who did you tell about your quest, beyond your kin?"
Thorin: "No one."
Since Bombur, Bofur, and Bifur know about the quest, they must be Thorin's kin!
Also, has anyone noticed that the film changes Bilbo's geneaology? We hear this:
Gandalf: "You are also a Took. Did you know that your great-great-great-great-uncle, Bullroarer Took, was so large he could ride a real horse?"
In the book, Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took was only Bilbo's great-great-great-uncle (i.e., brother of his great-great-grandfather).
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Riven Delve
Dor-Lomin
Mar 6 2013, 12:56am
Post #2 of 18
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to mean all the dwarves Thorin called upon to come on the quest, from "all seven kingdoms," including the Iron Hills.
And yes, I read the appendices the same way you do, that Bullroarer was Bilbo's great-great-great uncle. I'm blaming it on the screenwriters, not Gandalf.  Nice catch!
"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Mar 6 2013, 1:30am
Post #4 of 18
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They are definitely not related
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In the Visual Companion, Jude Fisher writes "Bifur and his cousins Bofur and Bombur are some of the few in The Quest for the Lonely Mountain who are not descended from the line of Durin. No royal blood here; these Dwarves are raised from among the coal miners and iron workers of the West of Middle-earth ... ."
By the way, did you get the email I sent you last week?
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Maciliel
Doriath
Mar 6 2013, 1:49am
Post #5 of 18
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every dwarf except bifur, bofur, bomber is in some way related to thorin
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oin and gloin are first cousins to balin and dwalin. i find that kinda cool.
apparently the appendices say dori, nori, and ori are related to thorin.
i love the way that, during the bag end dinner scene, as oin starts pontificating about the portents, as soon as he gets to about the second word, dori is already disgustedly rolling his eyes and rolling his head. he's heard this +a lot+. cross-cut back to oin finishing up -- "...as it was +fortold+..." and oin is giving dori a severe, offscreen look, in response to the dori eye/head rolling.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 6 2013, 4:23am
Post #6 of 18
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And we should trust the companion book instead of the film itself? //
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Mar 6 2013, 5:46am
Post #7 of 18
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I think we trust them together
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Or at least I do. Certainly, I don't find that line of Gandalf's to be determinative by itself. Gandalf could simply be mistaken, or speaking in a way to make a point.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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macfalk
Doriath
Mar 6 2013, 7:41am
Post #8 of 18
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As for Bilbo's geneaology, I doubt it matters that much. Slip of the tongue by Gandy maybe. Nitpicking, IMHO. //
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The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Riven Delve
Dor-Lomin
Mar 6 2013, 11:59am
Post #9 of 18
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Related or not, did all the dwarves know one another before the quest?
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Obviously everyone knew who Thorin was, but did he know them personally? And obviously the small brother/cousin groups knew each other, and Dwalin/Balin knew Thorin and nephews well, but was the meeting at Bag End the first time they all had really met together?
One clue we have is that Fili says, "We're fighters, all of us! To the last dwarf!" Maybe he is speaking of the fighting prowess of dwarves generally, but I can't think he'd say that if he'd ever seen Ori and his slingshot.  On the other hand, maybe he knew Ori just needed some orcs, goblins, and trolls to practice on, and he'd be fine.
At the very least, I think they must have gotten together to practice their choreography for "Blunt the Knives"... 
"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment
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stoutfiles
Nargothrond
Mar 6 2013, 4:31pm
Post #10 of 18
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How far do you want to go back?
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Everyone is probably related if you go back far enough.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 6 2013, 4:36pm
Post #11 of 18
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Is a film viewer who has not read that book wrong to believe they are related?
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And it's not just Gandalf's remark that tells the viewer that Bofur, Bifur, and Bombur are related to Thorin, but Thorin's reply that affirms they are his kin, since he's told no one who's not.
Also, considering another reply to this thread: is a film-only viewer wrong to think that Thorin is in fact related to the dwarves at the meeting he attended before coming to Bag End?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 6 2013, 4:45pm
Post #12 of 18
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Do Gandalf and Thorin understand "your kin" to mean "all dwarves"?
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Furthermore, it is conceivable, in Tolkien's world at any rate, that Thorin is not in fact related to all the other dwarves, since there were thirteen unrelated dwarves to begin with, and there's no guarantee of interbreeding between all the lines. But we don't know that in the film.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 6 2013, 4:55pm
Post #13 of 18
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"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
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I didn't say it mattered much. I didn't even say it was any kind of mistake, which the term "nitpicking" implies. Are gramma's lists of interesting but mostly minor film details to be termed "nit-piling"? Think of my questions this way: did the filmmakers choose to make a couple small changes to the book, by having Thorin be related to Bifur, et al. and by having Bullroarer one generation further removed from Bilbo? If so, why did they make those changes and how successful are those changes? If not, what in the film shows my interpretation of those changes to be incorrect? For instance, what reason do we have to believe that Gandalf is wrong about Bilbo's genealogy? Bilbo doesn't correct him, so our default interpretation should be that Gandalf is right. It's only when we compare the film to Tolkien's book that we notice the difference. (Which nobody seems to have done, for three months.)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Mar 6 2013, 5:33pm
Post #14 of 18
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Not wrong, but most probably don't care
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Honestly, how many filmgoers would even notice this, or care about it? And of those who do, would you agree that a fairly high percentage would either have read the companion book, or at least be interested in doing so? Or would be familiar enough with the the "true story" (e.g., what Tolkien actually wrote) to filter the lines through that knowledge?
Also, it is possible (though I admit it probably is unlikely), that the different lineage of the B-cousins will be clarified in one of the subsequent films. Or, perhaps, in the EE of this film. In which case, you would correctly point out that that would still leave the impression with a viewer who only watched TH:AUJ in the theater that the B-cousins are related to Thorin.
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I miss your participation in these forums!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Riven Delve
Dor-Lomin
Mar 6 2013, 5:57pm
Post #15 of 18
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From a screenwriter's perspective, it also could be that "kin"
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is easier to say when a character is in a rush and about to be attacked by an orc pack than "those folks you met with a few days ago, some of whom may have common ancestry with you." In that scene, Thorin doesn't exactly have time in his reply to quibble about semantics either.
"Kin" might not be strictly accurate, but it has a nice sound to it, kind of a collective way to refer to other dwarves.
I wouldn't have written "kin" if it wasn't strictly true...but I can see why the screenwriters might have.
And as for Bilbo's ancestors, I guess I am nerdy enough to find those little details interesting! It's fun to me when someone finds a little nugget like that, so thanks for brining it up. 
"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment
(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Mar 6 2013, 5:58pm)
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arithmancer
Hithlum
Mar 6 2013, 6:41pm
Post #16 of 18
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Personally I thought that movie Gandalf was not refering to the Brothers Ur (or any other members of Thorin's Company) when he referred to Thorin's "kin". Thorin is late to the meeting at Bag End because he has gone to some big Dwarf meeting, and we learn at Bag End that at this meeting, he discussed the quest at the very least with Dain, and possibly with others at this meeting. That's why I took it to mean "aside from the Dwarves you've tried to invite along to the Quest".
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Cirashala
Doriath
Mar 6 2013, 9:26pm
Post #17 of 18
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Dwalin mentions to Gandalf at Bag End that he (Thorin) is late because he traveled to a meeting north of our kin.
Given that Tolkien has referred to kin in his works in such a way as to imply both a familial connection and a looser definition of kin meaning race (ie-the KINslaying at alqualonde where elves slew other elves even if they were Noldor vs Teleri, which we know aren't related to each other familial wise), and a familial kin- being blood relation to one another.
When Thorin is questioned at dinner about did they all come? He responds with "aye envoys from all 7 kingdoms". The 7 kingdoms mentioned lead me to believe the kingdoms he is talking about are the kingdoms formed by those descended from the 7 fathers of the dwarves that Aule created-not kingdoms of the house of Durin itself (because we know at this time that the house of Durin is without a physical kingdom since Moria and Gundabad are overrun by orcs and Erebor has Smaug) which would lead me to believe that the use of the word "kingdom" in this instance implies "people" not land itself.
So, one can conclude that this particular reference to kin that Gandalf makes when they are about to be chased by wargs is reference to kin meaning dwarves (race) not familial kin.
Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Mar 15 2013, 4:32am
Post #18 of 18
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I think the genealogy change is purely a rhythm thing
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Also, has anyone noticed that the film changes Bilbo's geneaology? We hear this: Gandalf: "You are also a Took. Did you know that your great-great-great-great-uncle, Bullroarer Took, was so large he could ride a real horse?" In the book, Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took was only Bilbo's great-great-great-uncle (i.e., brother of his great-great-grandfather).
I watched that today, and I think this change is purely because four "great"s fits the rhythm of the scene better than three. Indeed, I wouldn't at all be surprised if it was an improvisation of Sir Ian McKellen. It just works better.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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