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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Are Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur are related to Thorin in the film?

N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 12:32am

Post #1 of 18 (805 views)
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Are Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur are related to Thorin in the film? Can't Post

I'm wondering about these lines:


Quote
Gandalf: "Who did you tell about your quest, beyond your kin?"

Thorin: "No one."


Since Bombur, Bofur, and Bifur know about the quest, they must be Thorin's kin!


Also, has anyone noticed that the film changes Bilbo's geneaology? We hear this:


Quote
Gandalf: "You are also a Took. Did you know that your great-great-great-great-uncle, Bullroarer Took, was so large he could ride a real horse?"


In the book, Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took was only Bilbo's great-great-great-uncle (i.e., brother of his great-great-grandfather).

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Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Mar 6 2013, 12:56am

Post #2 of 18 (495 views)
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I took that line, "your kin" [In reply to] Can't Post

to mean all the dwarves Thorin called upon to come on the quest, from "all seven kingdoms," including the Iron Hills.

And yes, I read the appendices the same way you do, that Bullroarer was Bilbo's great-great-great uncle. I'm blaming it on the screenwriters, not Gandalf. Wink Nice catch!


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Mar 6 2013, 1:11am

Post #3 of 18 (456 views)
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Got this from this site [In reply to] Can't Post

   

http://www.theonering.net/...it/characters/bifur/




Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mar 6 2013, 1:30am

Post #4 of 18 (459 views)
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They are definitely not related [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Visual Companion, Jude Fisher writes "Bifur and his cousins Bofur and Bombur are some of the few in The Quest for the Lonely Mountain who are not descended from the line of Durin. No royal blood here; these Dwarves are raised from among the coal miners and iron workers of the West of Middle-earth ... ."

By the way, did you get the email I sent you last week?

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Maciliel
Tol Eressea

Mar 6 2013, 1:49am

Post #5 of 18 (496 views)
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every dwarf except bifur, bofur, bomber is in some way related to thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

oin and gloin are first cousins to balin and dwalin. i find that kinda cool.

apparently the appendices say dori, nori, and ori are related to thorin.

i love the way that, during the bag end dinner scene, as oin starts pontificating about the portents, as soon as he gets to about the second word, dori is already disgustedly rolling his eyes and rolling his head. he's heard this +a lot+. cross-cut back to oin finishing up -- "...as it was +fortold+..." and oin is giving dori a severe, offscreen look, in response to the dori eye/head rolling.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 4:23am

Post #6 of 18 (370 views)
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And we should trust the companion book instead of the film itself? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mar 6 2013, 5:46am

Post #7 of 18 (363 views)
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I think we trust them together [In reply to] Can't Post

Or at least I do. Certainly, I don't find that line of Gandalf's to be determinative by itself. Gandalf could simply be mistaken, or speaking in a way to make a point.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


macfalk
Valinor


Mar 6 2013, 7:41am

Post #8 of 18 (338 views)
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As for Bilbo's geneaology, I doubt it matters that much. Slip of the tongue by Gandy maybe. Nitpicking, IMHO. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Mar 6 2013, 11:59am

Post #9 of 18 (331 views)
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Related or not, did all the dwarves know one another before the quest? [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously everyone knew who Thorin was, but did he know them personally? And obviously the small brother/cousin groups knew each other, and Dwalin/Balin knew Thorin and nephews well, but was the meeting at Bag End the first time they all had really met together?

One clue we have is that Fili says, "We're fighters, all of us! To the last dwarf!" Maybe he is speaking of the fighting prowess of dwarves generally, but I can't think he'd say that if he'd ever seen Ori and his slingshot. Tongue On the other hand, maybe he knew Ori just needed some orcs, goblins, and trolls to practice on, and he'd be fine.

At the very least, I think they must have gotten together to practice their choreography for "Blunt the Knives"... Cool


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


stoutfiles
Rohan


Mar 6 2013, 4:31pm

Post #10 of 18 (282 views)
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How far do you want to go back? [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone is probably related if you go back far enough.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 4:36pm

Post #11 of 18 (287 views)
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Is a film viewer who has not read that book wrong to believe they are related? [In reply to] Can't Post

And it's not just Gandalf's remark that tells the viewer that Bofur, Bifur, and Bombur are related to Thorin, but Thorin's reply that affirms they are his kin, since he's told no one who's not.

Also, considering another reply to this thread: is a film-only viewer wrong to think that Thorin is in fact related to the dwarves at the meeting he attended before coming to Bag End?

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 4:45pm

Post #12 of 18 (285 views)
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Do Gandalf and Thorin understand "your kin" to mean "all dwarves"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Furthermore, it is conceivable, in Tolkien's world at any rate, that Thorin is not in fact related to all the other dwarves, since there were thirteen unrelated dwarves to begin with, and there's no guarantee of interbreeding between all the lines. But we don't know that in the film.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 4:55pm

Post #13 of 18 (282 views)
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"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't say it mattered much. I didn't even say it was any kind of mistake, which the term "nitpicking" implies. Are gramma's lists of interesting but mostly minor film details to be termed "nit-piling"? Think of my questions this way: did the filmmakers choose to make a couple small changes to the book, by having Thorin be related to Bifur, et al. and by having Bullroarer one generation further removed from Bilbo? If so, why did they make those changes and how successful are those changes? If not, what in the film shows my interpretation of those changes to be incorrect? For instance, what reason do we have to believe that Gandalf is wrong about Bilbo's genealogy? Bilbo doesn't correct him, so our default interpretation should be that Gandalf is right. It's only when we compare the film to Tolkien's book that we notice the difference. (Which nobody seems to have done, for three months.)

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mar 6 2013, 5:33pm

Post #14 of 18 (268 views)
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Not wrong, but most probably don't care [In reply to] Can't Post

Honestly, how many filmgoers would even notice this, or care about it? And of those who do, would you agree that a fairly high percentage would either have read the companion book, or at least be interested in doing so? Or would be familiar enough with the the "true story" (e.g., what Tolkien actually wrote) to filter the lines through that knowledge?

Also, it is possible (though I admit it probably is unlikely), that the different lineage of the B-cousins will be clarified in one of the subsequent films. Or, perhaps, in the EE of this film. In which case, you would correctly point out that that would still leave the impression with a viewer who only watched TH:AUJ in the theater that the B-cousins are related to Thorin.

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I miss your participation in these forums!

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Mar 6 2013, 5:57pm

Post #15 of 18 (264 views)
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From a screenwriter's perspective, it also could be that "kin" [In reply to] Can't Post

is easier to say when a character is in a rush and about to be attacked by an orc pack than "those folks you met with a few days ago, some of whom may have common ancestry with you." In that scene, Thorin doesn't exactly have time in his reply to quibble about semantics either.

"Kin" might not be strictly accurate, but it has a nice sound to it, kind of a collective way to refer to other dwarves.

I wouldn't have written "kin" if it wasn't strictly true...but I can see why the screenwriters might have.


And as for Bilbo's ancestors, I guess I am nerdy enough to find those little details interesting! It's fun to me when someone finds a little nugget like that, so thanks for brining it up. Smile


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment

(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Mar 6 2013, 5:58pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Mar 6 2013, 6:41pm

Post #16 of 18 (250 views)
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Kin [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I thought that movie Gandalf was not refering to the Brothers Ur (or any other members of Thorin's Company) when he referred to Thorin's "kin". Thorin is late to the meeting at Bag End because he has gone to some big Dwarf meeting, and we learn at Bag End that at this meeting, he discussed the quest at the very least with Dain, and possibly with others at this meeting. That's why I took it to mean "aside from the Dwarves you've tried to invite along to the Quest".


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Mar 6 2013, 9:26pm

Post #17 of 18 (241 views)
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very true [In reply to] Can't Post

Dwalin mentions to Gandalf at Bag End that he (Thorin) is late because he traveled to a meeting north of our kin.

Given that Tolkien has referred to kin in his works in such a way as to imply both a familial connection and a looser definition of kin meaning race (ie-the KINslaying at alqualonde where elves slew other elves even if they were Noldor vs Teleri, which we know aren't related to each other familial wise), and a familial kin- being blood relation to one another.

When Thorin is questioned at dinner about did they all come? He responds with "aye envoys from all 7 kingdoms". The 7 kingdoms mentioned lead me to believe the kingdoms he is talking about are the kingdoms formed by those descended from the 7 fathers of the dwarves that Aule created-not kingdoms of the house of Durin itself (because we know at this time that the house of Durin is without a physical kingdom since Moria and Gundabad are overrun by orcs and Erebor has Smaug) which would lead me to believe that the use of the word "kingdom" in this instance implies "people" not land itself.

So, one can conclude that this particular reference to kin that Gandalf makes when they are about to be chased by wargs is reference to kin meaning dwarves (race) not familial kin.

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mar 15 2013, 4:32am

Post #18 of 18 (242 views)
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I think the genealogy change is purely a rhythm thing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Also, has anyone noticed that the film changes Bilbo's geneaology? We hear this:


Quote
Gandalf: "You are also a Took. Did you know that your great-great-great-great-uncle, Bullroarer Took, was so large he could ride a real horse?"


In the book, Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took was only Bilbo's great-great-great-uncle (i.e., brother of his great-great-grandfather).



I watched that today, and I think this change is purely because four "great"s fits the rhythm of the scene better than three. Indeed, I wouldn't at all be surprised if it was an improvisation of Sir Ian McKellen. It just works better.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

 
 

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