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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Narsil scene already on the soundtrack?

Lieutenant of Dol Guldur

Mar 5 2013, 5:16pm

Post #1 of 13 (1944 views)
Narsil scene already on the soundtrack? Can't Post

I just listened to the "The White Council (Extended Edition)" track and I noticed something. This track is little bit longer than the usual edition (~2:23). The shorter version begins at about 2:23. Moments before the first feature of the Galadriel-theme and the White Council meeting. The extended version begins earlier. And now begins the interesting part:

There is again the Rivendell-theme in different variations (with and without choir) and one of the Bilbo themes as well. If you look at the movie there was no scene with Bilbo in Rivendell except the arrival (on track "The Hidden Valley"), the Moon Rune scene (on track "Moon Runes"), the dinner (just an elven harp and not on the soundtrack) and the departure (on track "Over Hill"). Could this be the extended scene with Bilbo, Elrond and Narsil?

Let's have a closer look at the first 2:23 minutes of "The White Council (Extended Edtion)":

0:00 - 0:32
Different soft versions of the Rivendell-theme. With and without choir. Not so powerful like in the arrival scene (track "The Hidden Valley")
Possible scene: Bilbo discovers Rivendell and climbs the stairs up to the statue with Narsil

0:32 - 0:48
A sinister undertone starts. Very soft but also very noticeable the new variation of one of the Mordor-themes (also called "Necromancer theme" in the booklet)
Possible scene: Bilbo looks at Narsil and then turns around and notices the painting with Isildur and Sauron. Elrond appears and says to Bilbo
(who first doesn't notice him) something like: "Dark times... but long ago".

0:48 - 1:30
Again the Rivendell-theme. A bit stronger than in the beginning
Possible scene: Elrond changes the topic and tells Bilbo something about Rivendell and it's origins

1:30 - 2:23
One of Bilbos several themes starts (the same like in e.g. "A Very Respectable Hobbit"). Also very soft and more like a background. Would be perfect for a dialogue scene if you ask me.
Possible scene: Bilbo tells Elrond that he still isn't sure if he really should go on this journey. Elrond tries to encourage him (like Galadriel does with Frodo in LOTR) and also lets him know that he will always be welcome in Rivendell

2:23 - 9:40
The same "The White Council" track as on the standard edition.

Listen to it again and let's think about it together! What would you say? Is it just me and it's part of a different scene from the movie? Or was it cut like lot's of other great new moments of Howard Shores work? Or am I right?

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Mar 5 2013, 5:21pm)

Grey Havens

Mar 5 2013, 5:38pm

Post #2 of 13 (1512 views)
It has to be that scene. [In reply to] Can't Post

It fits so perfectly. I have a feeling that it might have been a last minute cut from the movie, which would explain why Score already scored it. It was probably a difficult choice to make.


Mar 5 2013, 5:48pm

Post #3 of 13 (1483 views)
I will have to listen to it again.. [In reply to] Can't Post

..I was so upset that they cut that scene. One of the first videos I saw from filming was of Bilbo and Elrond standing together at the railing in Rivendell. I remember smiling at it because PJ had gotten the scale correct (in LOTR, Frodo stands at the railing and it hits him at hip high).


Mar 5 2013, 5:49pm

Post #4 of 13 (1485 views)
Sounds good to me (pun not intended) [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't got the soundtrack yet, but what you describe sounds very plausible. It will be great if something like you describe is in the EE. Thanks for the analysis- must get the soundtrack and have a listen asap

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Mar 5 2013, 5:50pm

Post #5 of 13 (1488 views)
I think you're on to something. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've just listened to it again, and I agree with the points you have made.

Perhaps the Narsil scene connects with the beginning of the White Council scene? Maybe Gandalf is in the background, before leaving for the meeting?

Lieutenant of Dol Guldur

Mar 5 2013, 6:27pm

Post #6 of 13 (1588 views)
But Elrond needs time to change clothes ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought about that too but if you look at Elronds clothes it has to be earlier

Elrond: Dinner Scene Clothes

Elrond: Moon Rune Scene Clothes

Elrond: Talking To Bilbo Scene #01

Elrond: Talking To Bilbo Scene #02

Somewhere afterwards he obviously changed his clothes. If Gandalf is waiting for Elrond during that scene with Bilbo, does he also wait when Elrond changes his clothes? Or is he helping him? ;) Perhaps Elrond can change his clothes with a flick?

Elrond: White Council Meeting Clothes

And there is another costume of Elrond which looks like a mix of both. His blue Council-outfit and this beige dinner outfit. I think he wears it when they arrive at the White Council.

Elrond: Alternativ White Council Meeting Clothes

The main question is: How long do the dwarves and Bilbo stay in Rivendell? Is the night with the Moon Runes the same as in the White Council meeting? My thought was (chronological:)

Arrival (daylight) - Dinner (afternoon) - Narsil (afternoon/sunset) - Moon Runes (night/moon light) - [Orcs at weathertop] - Dwarves doing funny stuff/Bombur eating too much (night) - Dwarves doing more funny and unkind stuff (PJ said somewhere that there is more dwarven vandalism in Rivendell --> daylight or night?) - White Council Meeting (starts at night/ends at sunrise) - Departure (morning/sunrise)

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Mar 5 2013, 6:29pm)


Mar 5 2013, 7:25pm

Post #7 of 13 (1444 views)
I think you've got it [In reply to] Can't Post

Arrival (daylight) - Dinner (afternoon) - Narsil (afternoon/sunset) - Moon Runes (night/moon light)

It's either that or switch the dinner and Narsil scene. The Narsil scene looks kind of dark there, and quite like sunset here. But then you have what looks like afternoon lighting here. I'm assuming that Bilbo is exploring before coming upon Narsil and then talking to Elrond. Now, I've only seen the film once, so I'm not sure what the lighting is really like during the dinner. Does it look like Elrond could have went with Bilbo to dinner afterwards? Or does the lighting look more like afternoon?

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Mar 5 2013, 7:30pm

Post #8 of 13 (1445 views)
I just looked at my Eight Ball [In reply to] Can't Post

It said 'Answer fuzzy, ask again later...'


Mar 5 2013, 8:05pm

Post #9 of 13 (1429 views)
Wow after 16 views still had to think [In reply to] Can't Post

But I feel like the dinner scene light is indeed earlier than Bilbo exploring, so maybe he explores after dinner? With him walking alone outside first then inside and finding NarsiI, and with Elrond, as it gets darker. So Bilbo will have some time with Elrond before Moon Runes; maybe he is still with Elrond when Gandalf, Thorin and Balin come to find them and we get the Runes. I love the idea of them having time together.

I think you actually still see white looking (pre-full sunset) sunlight behind Gandalf when he is eating at dinner. And when Dwalin asks "where's the meat?" the light is till quite bright, and the glasses reflect daylight, not orange or pink. (I think, anyway)

So the Lieutenant's stated chronology seems correct.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 5 2013, 8:07pm)


Mar 5 2013, 8:17pm

Post #10 of 13 (1420 views)
That makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the idea that maybe it's Bilbo and Elrond talking when Balin, Thorin, and Gandalf come into the same room. It seems to make a lot of sense.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).

Grey Havens

Mar 6 2013, 9:52am

Post #11 of 13 (1347 views)
Great idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

I love your analysis, and think you might be onto something here. The different themes are clearly there, and as usual with Shore's score, they'll be there for a reason. It would make sense for this to be the score for that scene.

The Mordor theme heard starting around 0:36 sounds like the Mordor Descending Third theme, which is supposed to signal "impending doom" (from Magpie's website). I just want to go on record as saying I am so glad Shore is the composer for The Hobbit, both because I think he's brilliant and to give us the continuity between the trilogies. The use of these established themes gives the score so much more depth than it would have otherwise.

Bilbo's theme here (from 1:30-2:23) is probably my favorite new theme in this movie. It's wistful, with a bit of longing and a sense of comfort. I'd hypothesise that Bilbo is here thinking of Bag End and thinking he's much more suited to sitting in front of his cozy fire with a cup of tea than to traipsing off on wild adventures battling orcs and a dragon. He's feeling homesick!

I've just started studying up on Magpie's immensely impressive LOTR score analysis, and am finding the whole thing utterly fascinating. I know she's not going to do that for this trilogy (understandably so, given the tremendous time and effort invested there), but it sure would be neat to see a similar undertaking for The Hobbit. I hope Doug Adams eventually puts out a book for The Hobbit like he did for LOTR.

Lieutenant of Dol Guldur

Mar 6 2013, 11:13am

Post #12 of 13 (1350 views)
Thank you! I think I noticed Thranduils theme too [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I've visited Magpie's website once and I have my own little (actually it's a long one) list with all themes, motifs and cues I was able to figure out. Also for the AUJ score.

That's the great thing about Howard Shores work. There are so many cues, hints and motifs in his score. Every character and location has his own theme and different cues but all sound in way similar what makes it possible to connect all of these cues. Like the different Mordor-themes. They can stand alone or you can connect each one with every other cue or motif and you'll have the same sinister undertone. It makes it even more fun to listen to this masterpiece and try to figure theses different themes out!

Another example would be the Istari-themes:
If you listen very carefully you'll notice that the Gandalf the Grey-theme from AUJ and the Saruman/Isengard-theme share the same beginning. They sound very different (because of the different instruments and tones). I'm talking about these first three notes. And I think I noticed something similar in the Gandalf the White theme. I didn't notice anything like this in the Radagast the Brown theme but perhaps I only have to hear more careful to it.

And perhaps another hint in AUJ:
Also I think I figured Thranduils theme out. Listen to track 01 "My Dear Frodo" at about 3:22. There starts a female choir singing. I think it's Elvish because it sounds very much like that. This melody/theme only appears when Thranduil walks towards Thror. At 3:32 the dark male Dwarvish choir continues. It's too early to call this the Thranduil theme but perhaps it returns in DOS when we meet Thranduil and his Woodland Realm. It would work for me alongside the Galadriel/Lorien theme and the Elrond/Rivendell theme. But I fear we have to wait for it ;-)

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 23 2013, 6:18am

Post #13 of 13 (1312 views)
Looking forward to this scene so much. [In reply to] Can't Post

I really feel like there was a beat of Bilbo's development that felt left out of the movie, and you can tell it's because this scene is out. Presumably, Elrond tells Bilbo that he's welcome to stay in Rivendell. When the dwarves depart, the camera doesn't show Bilbo until he steps into frame. It's a moment that shows that he's decided to continue on the quest. That then leads into when Thorin chastises him and says he never should have come, which in turn leads him to tell Bofur that he's going "back to Rivendell". The fact that the scene is missing is a chink in the armor, so to speak, of Bilbo's story at this stage of the story. As the film currently plays, Bilbo doesn't really get any substantial character development until he spares Gollum's life.

For all the complaints about the film's length, this is one scene that probably should have stayed in. I'm very much looking forward to it in the EE. Thankfully, in the meantime, it would seem we at least have the music from the scene to enjoy. Smile

P.S. Speaking of character development, I really hope we get some great character beats for the dwarves as well. There was obviously stuff left out about the relationship of Thorin-Fili-Kili. *Fingers crossed*

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 23 2013, 6:21am)


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