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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Ro's been thinking yet again (beginner's luck, I know)
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Roheryn
Grey Havens

Mar 3 2013, 9:20am

Post #1 of 81 (1490 views)
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Ro's been thinking yet again (beginner's luck, I know) Can't Post

Went to viewing #16 today (with a TORnsib posse! Yay! Fun!). The last theatre in our city to be showing AUJ is still showing it -- only on the weekend -- on their best and biggest screen, with their best sound system in the biggest room, in 3D HFR. And you know what? It's paying off. The room was around half full -- probably 200 people there. I've got my fingers crossed they'll keep it around for another week or two still, at least for these weekend showings. I'm so pleased there's still this many people wanting to see it. And at least some are clearly repeat offenders; the guy sitting next to me kept giggling at all the right moments.

So, you'd think after *16* viewings I would have seen everything already. Just call me Ro-the-unobservant-and-slow-to-cotton-on, I guess, because I've spotted a few new things and had some thoughts on others (yeah, I know, I know; there goes me thinking again).

Firstly, this is really bugging me now. Can anyone please explain just why Thranduil conveniently happened to be in the vicinity of Erebor with a massive army just in the aftermath of Smaug's attack? Seriously, did he have impending-dragon-attack-radar and figured he'd get in on the action a bit? Or were they out for joint manoeuvers with the men of Esgaroth? Or just out to see how cool they looked marching in formation? Or did Smaug's attack last so long (or were there so many dwarves in Erebor) that Thranduil was able to marshall his troops and march all the way to Erebor before all the dwarves finished running out of Erebor? Why was he there with his army?

On to observations. Just after Radagast careens into the company in his bunny sled just outside the troll cave: Radagast is speaking to Gandalf while we see a quick medium shot that shows part of the company. Fili and -- drat, I think it was Bilbo -- are almost face-to-face with one of the bunnies, who is sitting up tall (and nearly half their height) and apparently staring them down. It was such a quick glimpse that I didn't see if the other bunnies are there too. Need that pause button!

While Gandalf and Radagast talk there by the troll cave, the rest of the Company is spread about in the background. Bifur stands alone like a sentinel (which is, I suppose, exactly what he's being right then). Balin is with Fili and Kili (a bit of grandfatherly time, maybe? I bet we're going to see more of Balin's relationship with the princes in the next two movies). Dwalin is with Thorin, of course. Bombur and Ori are together (they're sort of the odd ones out in the company, aren't they?). I love how even when they are definitely not the focus of the scene, the dwarves in the background are still giving us insights into their characters.

Has anyone else spotted the two hobbits fishing in the pond in Hobbiton, when we see it from above as Bilbo is running wildly to join the Adventure?

I managed to listen more for the music this time. Dagnabbit, I still couldn't tell you a thing about the music from the moment we first see Thorin until he's seated at the table talking about Erebor and we hear the Erebor theme. I went in determined to pay attention to the music during Thorin's entrance, but then...well, I was paying lots of attention during that scene but not to music. (Someone please tell me there is actually no music then, and I'll feel better.) However, I did notice that the theme that plays in the prologue when Thorin shakes his fist at the mountains (7:22-7:45 in My Dear Frodo) is also played at the end when Bilbo is facing off with the wargs, defending Thorin's body (not in the soundtrack, as far as I can tell). A theme of frustration and anger against insurmountable odds? Or something else? I also heard the Isengard theme, briefly and subtly, when we first see Saruman -- I know this was discussed here recently but I hadn't noticed it yet (it's at 4:38 in The White Council extended version). I loved that musical reference.

I saw the look between Bombur and Bofur when they're being held captive before the Goblin King (they look at each other just after he asks what they're doing in those parts). Think I'd missed that look before because, naturally, I couldn't take my eyes off Thorin. (Seriously, for those of us deep in the throes of Thorin-sickness, how much of the movie have we missed because we couldn't take our eyes off Thorin?)

Kili is sitting on sky-blue clothing of some sort when he's lounging in his long-johns near the furniture-campfire in Rivendell. Is this a reference to his hood color (which is just blue, not sky-blue) in the book? Also, the book says that both Fili and Kili carry a bag of tools and a spade. Fili in the movie is carrying a large shovel (charitably, you might could call it a spade) between the Trollshaws and Goblin-town. Just what do dwarves on an Adventure get up to that makes a shovel requisite baggage?

And speaking of the furniture-campfire scene, I have to laugh at Nori when he stands up to sniff the hanging laundry and starts complaining about something (the laundry, presumably) being smelly. Maybe they forgot the soap.

Finally: Thorin, you majestic dwarf. After this many viewings, you still steal the screen every moment you're on it. Your entrance is the best IFTSMMOP* moment of the movie. Love you. Keep it up.

------------------------------------------------

[*IFTSMMOP = I Forgot To Swallow My Mouthful Of Popcorn}


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 3 2013, 9:48am

Post #2 of 81 (774 views)
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I only wish I'd seen it that many times! [In reply to] Can't Post

Theories on the presence of Thranduil's army:

1. He was coming to get his army outfitted with new dwarf-made weapons and armor and his look as he turns away is disappointment that he won't be getting his spring outfit that year.

2. The Eagles saw Smaug coming in time to raise the alarm, but while they are on speaking terms with the Elves, they don't fly near the Mountain for fear of being shot by the Men of Dale.

3. Thranduil has a mirror like Galadriel's and saw the future.


I remember glimpsing the bunnies having a little staring contest too. I'm quite fond of the bunnies.

I don't know what music is behind Thorin's entrance either. Every time I go in determined to pay attention to one thing or another and find myself looking at something else. I'm not distracted, I'm focused on more important things. Wink

Shovels on rough camping trips are handy for digging latrines, among other things.

Silverlode






Nunilo
Bree

Mar 3 2013, 10:17am

Post #3 of 81 (738 views)
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Nori [In reply to] Can't Post

I got another viewing today too! For the first time I noticed Nori in this scene said, "So? It's not like you didn't do it too!" I thought he was talking about using the elves' furniture as firewood, but yes, maybe it was something to do with the laundry Smile (I can't remember if it was before or after the sniff)


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Mar 3 2013, 10:17am

Post #4 of 81 (746 views)
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Ah, a euphithingy. ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

Eufeminism. You-phimism and I-phimism and we-all-phimism. Yes, one of those. (Don't ask me where I was going with that, it just sort of came out.)

By "more important things" you naturally mean "Thorin's hair", "Thorin's smile", "Thorin's soulful eyes", "those gorgeous hair clips holding Thorin's braids", "Thorin's majestic smouldering pose as he asks about weapons of choice", etc. I understand! Cool

LOL at your theories! I'll go with #1, since that explains his Look.

So you noticed the bunny staring contest? Was there just one bunny staring down Fili and Bilbo, or were they all there?

And speaking of latrines, and totally off topic, my dad was in the boy scouts when he was a kid. He got to one of the ceremonies where he had to answer some questions to get his next badge. They asked him how one makes a latrine. He panicked and couldn't remember what a latrine was. So he explained how you get a shovel, dig a long trench quite a lot longer than it is wide, and just about so deep -- and then you lay your bedding in it and go to sleep.


marillaraina
Rohan

Mar 3 2013, 10:17am

Post #5 of 81 (735 views)
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noticed [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Balin is with Fili and Kili (a bit of grandfatherly time, maybe? I bet we're going to see more of Balin's relationship with the princes in the next two movies).


When watching it the other day I noticed that at one point when they are stopped on the stairs upon arriving first in Rivendell(this is when they first walk out of the crevice and are looking at where they've turned up), if you look in the background, Kili and Balin say a few words to each other.

So I hope you're right and we might get more Balin and the young princes interaction next time around.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Mar 3 2013, 10:18am)


Shagrat
Gondor

Mar 3 2013, 10:18am

Post #6 of 81 (743 views)
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Another theory [In reply to] Can't Post

Thranduil was alerted by the horns of Dale or some kind of Dwarven beacon system. Smaug's attack on Dale and Erebor may have lasted several days; there's nothing to confirm that it all took place over the space of an hour. He might be a particularly thorough dragon who likes to make sure he's razed every part of a city to the ground before moving on. Wink


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Mar 3 2013, 10:22am

Post #7 of 81 (737 views)
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I've never been quite sure [In reply to] Can't Post

just what the "it" is when Nori says that line "It's not like you didn't do it too!"). He says it just before some more furniture gets thrown on the fire, which is before he does the sniffing. So who knows -- maybe he *is* talking about poor laundry-washing habits, but could be he's talking about destroying poor Elrond's best parlour furniture.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 3 2013, 10:38am

Post #8 of 81 (731 views)
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I took it as [In reply to] Can't Post

the elves showing up, taking stock of the scene, seeing that all was lost and nothing could be done, and deciding not to needlessly risk the lives of his people. Of course, that was very cold and calculating, and obviously won't win him any points with the dwarves, but it's also an understandable position. And it's worth noting that he refused *all* aid, including that of escape, housing, or "medical" attention. Thranduil is, as Foreigner might say, as cold as ice.


Bellerock
Rivendell

Mar 3 2013, 11:34am

Post #9 of 81 (709 views)
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Elven soap [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Nori was referring to making kindling out of the furniture when he speaks, but that in the next moment he is noticing the effects of elven soap on dwarvish laundry. Can't you just imagine the Company setting out on the next stage of their trip smelling sweetly of flowers?


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 3 2013, 12:28pm

Post #10 of 81 (719 views)
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Yes, of course. But.... [In reply to] Can't Post

the question is, how did he get there so fast? It takes some time to muster an army, even an Elvish one, and it's a bit of a trip from Mirkwood and they got there in full battle array in time to see dwarves fleeing out the front gate. That's pretty speedy travel unless they had advance warning of some kind. Or a teleport. Or just happened to already be in the neighborhood...in full armor.

Silverlode






(This post was edited by Silverlode on Mar 3 2013, 12:30pm)


alienorchid
Lorien


Mar 3 2013, 2:30pm

Post #11 of 81 (647 views)
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I'm really hoping for at least one more showing! [In reply to] Can't Post

and I'll definitely email you straight away if I hear about one!

In today's viewing, I wasn't so sure it was a proper army that Thranduil brought with him. It seemed to just be one line spread out upon the hilltop, so my thinking was that it was a ranging party.

Also, I noticed this passage in my recent re-reading of TH: "Companies of the Wood-elves, sometimes with the king at their head, would from time to time ride out to hunt, or to other business in the woods and in the lands to the East." (from Barrels Out of Bond). Maybe they were out and about when they heard rumour of Smaug's arrival and went to see for themselves what was happening, or whether they could help.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 3 2013, 3:33pm

Post #12 of 81 (635 views)
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Doing view 16 later today [In reply to] Can't Post

Will watch today for:

Nori in Rivendell
Bunny-stare: have never noticed that at all! I want to see it.
Balin and the boys

No, Ro, there's no music AT ALL when he walks in Bag End....there, now you can feel better about it!WinkYou can just listen to your heart pound and your ovaries giggle..Heart LOL
Glad you saw the Bofur/Bombur moment - I love the brotherly magic they all bring. Only our Thorin is alone. Thank goodness he's got Dwalin.

Smaug is slow to wake. In the North his snooze button was heard to go on and off, so the word spread far and wide that the Dragon was stirring.... I dunno. I like the point about the Elves going on manuevers from the text, Alienorchid!

The fishing pond is so clear you can practically see the fish heading for the hook!

Will pay close attention to Nori and update later on.


sevilodorf
Gondor


Mar 3 2013, 3:36pm

Post #13 of 81 (661 views)
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Thranduil [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm off the top of my head.... elves out wandering the area.... problem is of course the DISTANCES which are more often than not ignored by PJ and Crew and to some extent not nailed down by Tolkien himself (Fonstad's Atlas mentions the disparity when charting out the journeys of Aragorn and hobbit vs. Thorin's company)

There's not real hope of know why they were around.... possibly were on the way to visit and just arrived at a bad time.

Why he just turned away? Pay back for the way he'd been treated in the past.... or just self preservation... no possibility of winning so why fight (though that does not absolve him of basic moral issues of helping the refugees to the best of his ability which he clearly chose not to do)

The whole incident does lead one to realize that Legolas and Gimli's friendship was an outright miracle .... or maybe both Gimli and Legolas could be termed rebellious?

Will watch for the bunny stare down as The Hobbit has now arrived at the second run theater and I hope to go a couple of times this week.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com





Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 3 2013, 3:42pm

Post #14 of 81 (634 views)
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I agree with your rebel idea [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas never rules; he leaves his father's kingdom and wanders with - of all things - a DWARF companion! Plus from the set stills it appears that it is Legolas who brings Orcrist to BO5A - I bet he places it with Thorin too. Altogether differerent from his father. Makes me like him more.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Mar 3 2013, 3:46pm

Post #15 of 81 (671 views)
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I had gotten the impression that Thranduil [In reply to] Can't Post

and crew had been leaving Erebor when Smaug attacked. Although I could be wrong, I had connected this with the earlier scene of Thranduil in front of Thror's throne inside Erebor, and thought perhaps the Elves were just leaving after that visit.

'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 3 2013, 4:27pm

Post #16 of 81 (615 views)
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Indeed... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
the question is, how did he get there so fast? It takes some time to muster an army, even an Elvish one, and it's a bit of a trip from Mirkwood and they got there in full battle array in time to see dwarves fleeing out the front gate. That's pretty speedy travel unless they had advance warning of some kind. Or a teleport. Or just happened to already be in the neighborhood...in full armor.



Based on what Tolkien wrote and using Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth, I have to conclude that it should have taken King Thranduil one day to muster and prepare a force, and at least three days to march from Mirkwood directly to Erebor. The movie scene just doesn't work when one is aware of the logistics involved.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


CathrineB
Rohan


Mar 3 2013, 5:23pm

Post #17 of 81 (600 views)
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But... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
and crew had been leaving Erebor when Smaug attacked. Although I could be wrong, I had connected this with the earlier scene of Thranduil in front of Thror's throne inside Erebor, and thought perhaps the Elves were just leaving after that visit.



I thought of that one too, but doesn't Thror go mad with the Gold and all after the Elvenking's visit? Going crazy takes longer time than that. So Thrandy can't possibly be there with his army at the time.
It'd made more sense if the King was there alone with a few elves instead of an army


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Mar 3 2013, 5:39pm

Post #18 of 81 (609 views)
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What is Time to the Elves? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps they stayed there long enough to watch Thror going crazy, then decided to leave ("I've got a bad feeling about this") right before Smaug attacks.

In Reply To
I thought of that one too, but doesn't Thror go mad with the Gold and all after the Elvenking's visit? Going crazy takes longer time than that. So Thrandy can't possibly be there with his army at the time.
It'd made more sense if the King was there alone with a few elves instead of an army

Although it would be more likely that the Elves were coming back for another visit just at that time--although I'm not sure why they would have an army. Maybe Thranduil had gotten wind that Smaug was causing trouble in the North and decided to go to Erebor to see if they could help defend against the Dragon--but by the time they got there, Smaug had already taken Erebor and the Elves couldn't help at that point.

Just my rambling thoughts however. Great question though, and great replies!

'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 3 2013, 6:39pm

Post #19 of 81 (566 views)
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He probably used the same paths Haldir took to get to Helm's Deep. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Mar 3 2013, 6:50pm

Post #20 of 81 (573 views)
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Middle-earth Messenger Service (spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

And here's another bit from the book, which takes places after Smaug goes after Laketown ("Fire and Water"): "Bard at once had speedy messengers sent up the river to the Forest to ask the aid of the King of the Elves of the Wood, and these messengers had found a host already on the move, although it was then only the third day after the fall of Smaug. The Elvenking had received news from his own messengers and from the birds that loved his folk, and already knew much of what had happened." Still, it was a matter of days between when the little birdies told him and he got partway there.


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Mar 3 2013, 7:04pm

Post #21 of 81 (591 views)
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Just what DO dwarves smell like? [In reply to] Can't Post

After a great deal of serious, in-depth, laboratory research, I’ve come to the conclusion that they smell…

a bit whiffy, really. Tongue

The experts speak for themselves:
1. Gandalf (to the company): “The dragon is accustomed to the smell of a dwarf, the scent of a hobbit is all but unknown to him.” (Subtext: "Hobbits, unlike some others I could name, prefer daily warm baths, then a late breakfast on the lawn afterwards.")
2. Bilbo (to the trolls): “Well, have you smelt them?” (Subtext: "A sprinkle of sage won’t help this lot.")
3. Azog (to the orc-pack): “Do you smell it? The scent of dwarf flesh”—oh, wait. I think that was fear. Must have been thinking of another movie. Never mind.
4. As we see at Rivendell, dwarves don’t wash their underwear. ’Nuff said.
Wink



"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Mar 3 2013, 7:49pm

Post #22 of 81 (562 views)
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You may be right... [In reply to] Can't Post

but I'm willing to test your theory personally, although I may not get past giving Thorin a good sniff-test. The hardships we endure in the name of good science!

Hadn't stopped to consider the implications of the dwarves washing their outergarments but not their underwear. Maybe they all had a change of longjohns with them and they were lounging in the clean ones.


ryouko
Lorien

Mar 3 2013, 8:02pm

Post #23 of 81 (562 views)
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hadn't thought of that [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
4. As we see at Rivendell, dwarves don’t wash their underwear. ’Nuff said.
Wink


Very good point. Though it does make me wonder if the bathing scene in the next movie (the one fangirls are already drooling over Wink ) will have the Dwarves wearing their longjohns while in the water.


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Mar 3 2013, 8:38pm

Post #24 of 81 (550 views)
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WHAT?! Why wasn't I told about this?! [In reply to] Can't Post

A bathing scene?! (There is one in the book before they get to Beorn's house...is that the one?)

With that and Barrels Out of Bond, won't we be exceeding our Recommended Daily Allowance of Sopping-Wet Dwarf?? Wink


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


ryouko
Lorien

Mar 3 2013, 8:46pm

Post #25 of 81 (538 views)
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well, it's not confirmed [In reply to] Can't Post

Mostly speculation, since it's in the book. I think it's more to do with wishful thinking on the parts of some then on what will actually happen. Wink

And I doubt it will happen.

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