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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The so-called 'Nazgul Theme'
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Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 12:31am

Post #51 of 85 (262 views)
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Orcish fea... [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose they must if they are Elven stock. Hmmm....interesting.....wonder what their afterlife options are though?
Enjoy your bears. Heehee, I got Thorin's sword for my birthday.... Smile (giggling)

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 27 2013, 12:37am)


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 12:44am

Post #52 of 85 (289 views)
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Unleash the majesty! [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my favorite parts of the movie. I could discuss this all day. Your idea that the music here is a showdown theme is interesting. This is just another variation -- albeit a much more powerful variation -- of that theme which we've heard in a number of places in LOTR. I do think there's an element of Mordor or Nazgl to it, though.

The music (in the Thorin-strides-through-the-flames scene) is fantastically powerful and wonderfully set against an epic showdown. The music makes for a much more powerful bit of movie than wed have had if the exact music on the soundtrack were used. I love it. The musical reference to Mordor or the Nazgl makes the scene that much more suspenseful and intriguing. Instead of getting so hung up on the music taking us out of the moment (because egad! theres a musical reference to something weve heard before!), I think a better approach is to ask why a variation of this theme is being used here. What are the moviemakers suggesting? Its not random, and we dont yet have all the pieces of the puzzle, so to speak. I find the use of the theme here fascinating, and can't wait til we've got more answers after seeing DOS and TABA.


imin
Valinor


Feb 27 2013, 12:59am

Post #53 of 85 (262 views)
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My reaction was the total opposite to yours during this scene [In reply to] Can't Post

For me it really let the whole scene down because i was thinking why are they using that nazgul theme when they are showing thorin? And whilst trying to figure that out and it taking me completely out of the movie it meant the scene was not powerful to me in any way.

I have to say when i saw the film to me it wasn't that there was an element of the nazgul theme, or reference to it. To me that was the nazgul theme - now i may not have listened to it or watched the movies enough to realise the difference but neither has loads of other people - hence their reaction to the music.

I think it's easy to say don't get hung up about something if it doesn't bother you. For me that whole walking down the burning tree to face your nemesis was ruined by a poor choice of music (imo). I did ask why this theme was being used and what the movie makers were getting at - hence the taking out of the scene.

To me it feels randomly added as thorin is not a nazgul neither is azog but at least he is a bad guy i guess. To me the theme is for Thorin as it started as he got up and started walking and was on him before going to azog - maybe im just simple but to me that suggests its thorins music for this scene not azogs.

I realise it could all come together during the next two movies and the choices of the film makers become clear but to me that is too late. What would have been better would be some music than most find appropriate for the scene and is original - that way the only time it would be mentioned would be when people bring up how much they like it - such as misty mountain song.

Anyway this is not to try and change your mind on this - its a good thing you enjoyed this scene, more just to give my view on the scene and specifically the music.


(This post was edited by imin on Feb 27 2013, 1:01am)


glor
Rohan

Feb 27 2013, 1:17am

Post #54 of 85 (244 views)
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yes we do not have all the pieces. [In reply to] Can't Post

I still think that the so called Nazgul theme has been used in the broader context of Kings whose pride, lust for power and wealth, and prestige is their undoing.

I also suspect that Dain will kill Azog in DOS, PJ and co, like to shift timelines in the movieverse. This also makes sense as it would introduce Dain to film goers whom might be baffled by Dain just turning up after BOFA and going 'I'm King now' and the non-Tolkienite movie watcher going, who, what, huh Crazy


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 27 2013, 1:20am

Post #55 of 85 (270 views)
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Just a couple of thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

...from someone who's studied the LOTR score.

you wrote:
The Nazgul don't really have a set theme (instrumental or vocal) as far as I can tell.


They do. It was one of the first fan identified themes and it's listed as a theme in "The Music of the LOTR Films." From my website:
THE RINGWRAITHS' THEME, a theme for Mordor, is often defined by singing taken from the source text, The Revelation of the Ringwraiths. This theme uses a strong emphasis on the first and second beat of the measure. It is used exclusively with the Ringwraiths except once, in the prologue.


you wrote:
Sometimes there are chants when they appear on screen, but the voice pitch and background instrumentals are always different.


There are very few themes that sound very similar throughout all their uses in the movie. No theme (with the exception of a few tracked pieces of music) is exactly the same twice. Many themes vary wildly almost to the point where the untrained ear might not pick up that a particular instance was a variant on an existing theme. So, it's to be taken for granted that there would be differences from iteration to iteration. But I can say that those differences in the Ringwraiths theme don't make it not a theme.

You can see a list of all the place the Ringwraiths Theme is heard in LOTR here:
http://www.amagpiesnest.com/...rdor_ringwraiths.htm

(Keep in mind: Three Mordor Accompaniments, the Descending Third Theme, Threat of Mordor, and the Mordor Skip-beat, are often used as ostinatos to the Ringwraiths' Theme. Don't confuse them as the Ringwraiths Theme or being part of the Ringwraiths Theme.)

you wrote:
And the reason we hear it then is because Frodo is having a flashback about the Weathertop incident...


I would disagree. I think we hear it because the Nazgul are in the scene. But I'm not sure it makes much difference in the larger picture.

That said, it is surely true that this theme is likely being realigned in some manner. "Realigned" is a word used in "The Music of the LOTR" films to indicate that a theme is now being used towards a somewhat different purpose than it was first applied (at least 'first' in terms of how the viewer watches the series from start to finish - it may not be 'first' in terms of how the music was originally written or applied in the studio). And it is worth noting that I believe the lyrics of the music as heard in TH:AUJ are not the same as those used for the Ringwraiths Theme in LOTR.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 1:32am

Post #56 of 85 (241 views)
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Bolg and Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

I think they used Azog, not Bolg, because Bolg is also a character in the movie series, who in later movies will be doing something other than what Azog is doing. We've not properly met him yet, though he appeared in the Azanulbizar flashback. Until we see how both of the characters are used I think it would be premature to say one should replace the other.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Feb 27 2013, 1:46am

Post #57 of 85 (236 views)
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That's fair... [In reply to] Can't Post

I still have a problem with Azog's inclusion at all. But we shall see how all this plays out, and i can't wait honestly. Who knows, maybe future developments will turn me around on this...


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Feb 27 2013, 1:51am)


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 2:55am

Post #58 of 85 (227 views)
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I love it when you weigh in on the music, Magpie. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for this. I need to spend a seriously enjoyable good part of a day going through the analyses on your site...fascinating!


Esmeralda
Bree


Feb 27 2013, 4:50am

Post #59 of 85 (221 views)
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Very well, then I would like [In reply to] Can't Post

a Thorin-o-gram. Singing dwarf-lord shows up at my door and croons about mountains and gold while I squoosh my Teddy Beorn.

Then I offer him wine, and we all - me, Thorin-o-gram, and Teddy Beorn, cuddle on the white warg-skin rug in front of the fire, watching the embers rise up the chimbley like fallen stars trying to find their way back home...

I'm sorry, what was this thread about again? I got distracted...


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 27 2013, 5:29am

Post #60 of 85 (230 views)
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I've come to realize... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that I feel a bit protective about the music of LOTR. I mean, there were significant numbers of people listening and discussing and documenting it and we did a good job of establishing quite a bit of information even before Doug had done anything more write a few articles here and there (although he was working on stuff that was yet to be published). Then Doug released all his info which fleshed out and expanded all our fan observations and analysis.

So there's a really good solid base of info that is built on material documentation: interviews, magazine articles, commentaries, liner notes, books and, in my case, sound clips. Hundreds and hundreds of sound clips. I took a screenshot of some of my folders open while working:
http://www.amagpiesnest.com/...reggs/screenshot.htm

All those folders hold soundclips and notes. And I have similar folders for the parts with singing. And the diegetic music. And the nuances of the Dead Marshes with the Sprechstimme voices, aleatoric singing, portamentos, and Elrond voice echoing his call from the prologue, "Tangado haid!"

I am making a choice not to study The Hobbit music and I'm fine with any interpretation people take with this music. But they can't start rewriting history by saying stuff like, "There is no Ringwraith's Theme." (and this is not the first... and I don't think it's even the second.. time this has been claimed.)

Or that themes can be exactly alike from instance to instance. Or that any variation is a negation of that music as a theme.

I don't mean to sound harsh but it's just not accurate. And the information is out there so people really need to educate themselves when they talk about it. If you want the best... buy Doug. If you want the non-musicologist approach... look at my site. (I think both sources complement each other well) But don't mess with our music! lol. This stuff is important to the people who worked hours at studying it and it deserves some respect. :-)

and, fwiw Ro, I was really grateful for what you said here.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 6:41am

Post #61 of 85 (223 views)
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So, is it true what they say about Dwarves: [In reply to] Can't Post

the wider the fingers, the longer the sword?


Elizabeth
Valinor


Feb 27 2013, 6:42am

Post #62 of 85 (232 views)
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From Doug Adams book "The Music of the Lord of the Rings" [In reply to] Can't Post

...which dissects and discusses the themes in detail:

Quote
Galadriel's narration illustrates the Battle of Dagorlad and the Last Alliance, which set out to meet Sauron head-on. But, Sauron proves himself a formidable foe. With a scorching uproar of the RINGWRAITH theme, the Dark Lord sends his mace into the throngs of the Last Alliance...


It also gives the notes, and I could play them for you, but I don't think you could hear Unsure








Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 6:46am

Post #63 of 85 (211 views)
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A threesome! [In reply to] Can't Post

*swooon* Thorin and Beorn on a warg-skin rug in front of a roaring fire... erm, I forgot what this thread *was* about, but I like where it's going! Wink


Slim
Rivendell


Feb 27 2013, 7:05am

Post #64 of 85 (220 views)
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I call it the "Dire Situation" theme :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't have a problem with it during the Charge of the Thorin Brigade (love how that sounds!), because I never associate it with the Nazguls -- I associate it with "oh no, something bad is about to happen!"


axecrazy
Rivendell


Feb 27 2013, 7:57am

Post #65 of 85 (209 views)
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I guess I'm the one with misconceptions. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not for the first time either. Tongue Thanks to Magpie as well for the corrections and hard facts.




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 8:21am

Post #66 of 85 (198 views)
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You have every right to feel protective! [In reply to] Can't Post

Good grief! You've done an amazing amount of work on this. The mind boggles. I'm dying to sit down and go through your site thoroughly! Not sure why I hadn't thought to do this before. I've got a bit of training in music -- only a bit -- but it's just enough to make me wish I had a whole lot more, and I find your analyses fascinating. Granted, I have no idea what diegetic music and portamentos are (I keep thinking diabetic analgesics and a new kind of mushroom, respectively); clearly my musical foundation is lacking! Anyways, I love reading your thoughts on the music. I fully appreciate your decision just to enjoy The Hobbit music and not analyze it, but if ever someone spends even half as much time working on TH music, I'd sure love to see that too. I really need to get Doug Adams' book. It's got to be the only LOTR book we don't have a copy of.



In Reply To
and, fwiw Ro, I was really grateful for what you said here.



Smile Thanks. It needed saying.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 10:03am

Post #67 of 85 (184 views)
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"You SHALL!.. not MESS... With our Maggie May!"...Bomby// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 1:46pm

Post #68 of 85 (166 views)
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Agreed! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure, once we see how both characters in the movies are used it would be reasonable to feel both should be used differently, or that only one "needed" to be in and certain subplots could have been omitted to accomplish this, etc. I also have no problem with the opinion that the entire Azog plotline should not be there, as no Orc was chasing the Dwarves in the book during this part of the story and Azog has a nice backstory that should not have been messed with. Though personally I tend not to be a book purist about movies, and I enjoyed the Azog business so I think could fit well into the film series.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 2:15pm

Post #69 of 85 (163 views)
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Nor with RO!.. nor with LIZ..tOo! [In reply to] Can't Post

Or you will have Bom. ..
to deal with...Grrruur


andwise
Rivendell


Feb 27 2013, 2:57pm

Post #70 of 85 (167 views)
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good point... [In reply to] Can't Post

I said something similar to this in my thread about Howard shores score.I saw it as that theme being played because azog,being a gundabad or,would surely have been under rule of mordor/an Mar,so it makes sense for this theme to be used for him too.whether its a showdown theme or just a 'bad guy' theme I don't know but I certainly don't mind it being used there.well said again sir! Smile

Arrow....black arrow,I have saved you to the last.you have never failed me and always I have recovered you.I had you from my father and he from old.if ever you came from the forges of the true king under the mountain,go now and speed well


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 5:23pm

Post #71 of 85 (144 views)
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Beautiful labor of love [In reply to] Can't Post

I mentioned in another thread - discussing AUJ vs LOTR redundancies - that I would have to look to your work first to even try to analyze score.. Even though for the non-musically-gifted (ahem, me! can't carry a tune in a slop bucket- class) sometimes its a challenge to "get" it all. I lurked about for years and didn't post but have followed what you have been up to.
Do not think it is not appeciated for the amazing body of knowledge that it is!

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 27 2013, 5:32pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 5:29pm

Post #72 of 85 (149 views)
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(Uncontrollable giggling...........!) [In reply to] Can't Post

'Tis TRUE Ro! Smile And I couldn't wait to tell you..........!
The width is very nice, and its quite long! And silky hard texture.....ummmm where's that fire you were talking about? HAHAHA.........!
The Thorin Sickness strikes again.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


axecrazy
Rivendell


Feb 27 2013, 6:27pm

Post #73 of 85 (148 views)
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Gah [In reply to] Can't Post

Looking at the first post now, I feel stupid. Blush Of course this has been brought before and discussed to death. A quick youtube search later and I feel even worse. Unsure Bleh. Shutting up now.




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 7:22pm

Post #74 of 85 (133 views)
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Don't feel bad Axecrazy! [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit score is new territory. And you had symbolic questions which are worth discussing. An ear like Magpie's helps us all out though. It's a subtle and intricate (still head scratching sometimes to me) topic! Smile

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 27 2013, 7:23pm)


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 7:44pm

Post #75 of 85 (130 views)
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No, don't do that! [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, no need to shut up! Your post obviously generated a fair lot of discussion, and just because we've discussed something before doesn't mean we're not interested in discussing it again. There are always new angles and takes to consider on any topic, and different people weigh in with their thoughts (or the same people weigh in with new thoughts). It's dynamic!

So, don't feel stupid. Your thoughts and ideas are welcome. And so are you, by the way: welcome to TORn! Smile

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