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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Plot speculations for DOS
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Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 3:18am

Post #1 of 64 (1811 views)
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Plot speculations for DOS Can't Post

Can you believe we still have to wait 9 1/2 looonnng months til we finally get to see DOS? I'd start jumping up and down with excitement already, but I think I'd be pretty tired come December. It's like the anticipation for Christmas when we were little kids, only...well, drat it, this is even better!

Okay, okay. Was just thumbing through the edition of The Annotated Hobbit that's currently living by my laptop (here's an aside question for you: how many copies of The Hobbit do you have in your house, and where are they all living right now?) and got into Flies and Spiders. (Another aside: I just realized there are several paragraphs there directly referring to Elvish history as recounted in The Sil -- how many times have I read The Hobbit (including just recently), and The Sil too, and I just now noticed this? LOL!). I can't get past the fact that in the book, the Elvenking does not recognize Thorin. This is a rather signficant point in the book. This can not possibly be true in the movie -- unless Thranduil comes down with an amazing case of amnesia. So I can't help wondering, what in Middle-earth will be Thranduil's excuse for locking up Thorin and the rest of the Dwarves? What is the Company going to do that so offends Thranduil? Just trespassing? Surely Thorin will know that they are in Thranduil's realm, and ought to have ready some smooth arguments for why Thranduil ought to leave them alone, should they run into each other. And Thranduil's betrayal of Thror et al. when Smaug attacked Erebor ought not to cause Thranduil to feel such anger towards Dwarves that he locks them up on sight.

So, that's what I can't stop thinking about. Much more interesting than cow water, which is something else I ought to go think about.

What other plot points are you super-curious about? And what are your thoughts on this one?


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 27 2013, 3:39am

Post #2 of 64 (1213 views)
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Thranduil [In reply to] Can't Post

He will definitely recognize Thorin. I think it will be simple trespassing but also Thranduil is going to want to know what Thorin is doing back on this side of the Misty Mountains. Since we know in the book neither Thorin nor Balin is talking, He tosses the whole lot in their cells till he can sort it out. He may suspect they are on their way back to Erebor, but I'm not sure whether he will or not. I think he will have an innate mistrust of Thorin probably having heard some of the bits about Thrain being mad and wandering around the area before he was taken to Dol guldor. He may suspect that Thorin is out for revenge, although that I think is more iffy.

I wonder how Laketown and the master of Laketown plays out. Will he be pretty much disgarded in a hurry or will he have a bigger part.

I also wonder if they will have Bilbo inside a barrell in the Barrels out of Bond scene. Or will he hang on to them like he did in the book. I hope we see a seriously almost drowned Bilbo and his "sneezing" when he gets back to land. I also really hope PJ keeps the dialogue in when he pulls Thorin out of his barrel "Well..are you alive or are you dead" :)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Feb 27 2013, 4:05am

Post #3 of 64 (1093 views)
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Bilbo (spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

We've seen a number of shots of Bilbo riding a barrel in the water, mostly in some of the production videos. It's possible that he starts inside and then gets out, but I suspect that an "invisible" Bilbo will engineer the escape, and end up riding a barrel.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Feb 27 2013, 4:11am)


Mahtion
Rivendell

Feb 27 2013, 4:29am

Post #4 of 64 (1091 views)
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The Court of Thranduil, Elvenking [In reply to] Can't Post

I imagine that this scene will play on the history between Thorin and Thranduil. For inspiration I suspect that parts of the spirit of the Silmarillion will be echoed. Thorin will definitely being hold a grudge against Thranduil and will say his smug remarks directed at the king and complain about inhospitality and the betrayal at Erebor. Thranduil will like Elu Thingol take offense and probably lash out with words such as "I am of the Elder days and who are you to make demands in my kingdom. We are not under the Mountain here Thorin son of Thror but in the halls of my father where I am king of all that you witness." Thorin could follow with "yet my people wrought these very halls, the same you so casually abandoned at the moment of our greatest peril!"

Dialogue aside I believe the encounter will begin with hostility and heated words and then end with the dwarves refusing to speak about their intentions. I could not imagine movie Thorin ignoring his elf grudge in the presence of the source of his hatred. No, Thorin will speak if only to insult and demean Thranduil. I wonder how Thorin will agree to venture through Mirkwood knowing that he didn't even want to see Elrond who was innocent of the events of Erebor. Will Thorin be tricked again into going into another elf realm or will he go in hesitantly knowing that it is the quickest path through to the lonely mountain?


(This post was edited by Mahtion on Feb 27 2013, 4:32am)


Bellerock
Rivendell

Feb 27 2013, 4:47am

Post #5 of 64 (1097 views)
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Thranduil should recognize Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember that even as a child when I first read the book that point puzzled me. Why didn't the elf king recognize Thorin?

Thranduil should definitely know Thorin in the movie, but he will probably lock him up anyway. For one thing, if Thorin can't even bring himself to be polite to the hospitable and blameless Elrond, I'm sure Thorin will not be conciliatory towards Thranduil against whom he has a real grievance. And Thranduil struck me in the movie as rather proud and resentful of Thror's power. Tossing Thorin in the cellar would doubtless be enjoyable for Thranduil as a bit of petty revenge.


cats16
Valinor

Feb 27 2013, 4:49am

Post #6 of 64 (989 views)
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My take [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Mahtion on this. I definitely see Thorin spouting off and antagonizing Thranduil. I can't wait to see them interact together!

And, for the rest of DOS, I'm wondering how the ?tunnel? leading from the Hidden Door to the inner halls will be shown. I had always imagined it, like the goblin tunnels, to be very claustrophobic and appear to be like labryinths underground. But, in AUJ, they changed this to a very open environment with much more lighting than I had imagined. Obviously, I totally understand this from a filmmaking perspective (for lighting). So, I wonder if this tunnel to the inner chambers will be something similar, considering what we've seen of Erebor so far. Hopefully we get the sense of claustrophobia. DOS, as a whole, I hope, will have a very claustrophobic and constricting feeling. Mirkwood should definitely contribute to this feelling.

Just my take here.


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 27 2013, 5:40am

Post #7 of 64 (1013 views)
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Oh, I can hardly wait to see Thorin and Thranduil together [In reply to] Can't Post

Given that Thorin's hatred of the elves for what he deemed their betrayal of his people had years to simmer, I expect the first words out of his mouth are going to be really choice. Can't wait. I would expect Thranduil would imprison him for self-preservation if nothing else! And the rest of the company would be thrown in prison just on general principles since they are Thorin's buddies. Unless of course they 'accidentally' (nudgenudge) shot his Uber-Elk and ate him for supper.

And like others, I couldn't fathom why in the book Thranduil didn't recognize Thorin. Does he need glasses? That's certainly not going to happen in the next film!

**Spoilers for those who haven't read the book!**

And I gotta say, I'm not looking forward to the spiders. No, not at all, precious. Those critters are sort of a phobia for me, so I don't know how I'm going to handle it. Especially in 3D HFR!! Oh GAWD!

On the other side of the coin, I can hardly contain my excitement for seeing Smaug the Extra Special!! And played by my favorite actor to boot! What a bonus!! I wonder...and I know this isn't a plot thing....but I wonder how he's going to 'talk' to Bilbo. In fact, I wonder (looking down the road a ways) how any of the creatures are going to 'talk', like the raven Roac. I'm a little concerned. I hope it's a mind-thing, because I just can't escape my visions of Mr. Ed, the talking horse, when I was growing up. Okay. I'll stop there.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

(This post was edited by Old Toby on Feb 27 2013, 5:45am)


Esmeralda
Bree


Feb 27 2013, 5:45am

Post #8 of 64 (1009 views)
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Aside from Thorin not wanting to reveal [In reply to] Can't Post

their intention of going back to the Mountain and getting inside (where *does* he keep that key so neither the goblins, nor the elves are able to find it?), I've been wondering about the state of Mirkwood. Radagast's scenes made it clear that the Necromancer's effect on Mirkwood is very recent and rapidly increasing - rather than the long, slow decline portrayed in the books. If the elves have found themselves suddenly under siege by 'dark forces', any strangers roaming the forest are likely to be treated with suspicion, if not down-right hostility. The elves want answers to what's going on, and the dwarves' refusal to give any good account of themselves will be infuriating, and possibly seen as an assumption of guilt. As far as the elves know, they could be in league with the baddies, or responsible for stirring them up. Add to this the charm and tact with which Thorin is known for in his dealings with elves and we've got ourselves a powder-keg Wink.

I am looking forward to seeing how Thorin responds to captivity. In the book, Thorin is completely isolated and nearly broken by the time Bilbo finds him. Movie-Thorin is so driven and action-oriented, I can only imagine the sort of melt-down he may experience under those circumstances, with nothing to fight except his own fear of failure.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 8:37am

Post #9 of 64 (909 views)
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Me too! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Given that Thorin's hatred of the elves for what he deemed their betrayal of his people had years to simmer, I expect the first words out of his mouth are going to be really choice. Can't wait. I would expect Thranduil would imprison him for self-preservation if nothing else! And the rest of the company would be thrown in prison just on general principles since they are Thorin's buddies. Unless of course they 'accidentally' (nudgenudge) shot his Uber-Elk and ate him for supper.



"Really choice" is about what I'd expect; or, as Aragorn would say, "That was NOT so courteous!" Self-preservation, lol! And Thorin's hatred isn't going to get any better: being thrown in the dungeon by Thranduil is going to seem like the ultimate humiliation and betrayal to Thorin. After all, this Elvenking used to pay homage to his granddad. Thranduil ought to bow to Thorin, too.


In Reply To
And I gotta say, I'm not looking forward to the spiders. No, not at all, precious. Those critters are sort of a phobia for me, so I don't know how I'm going to handle it. Especially in 3D HFR!! Oh GAWD!



I don't mind spiders, but Mr. Ro screams when he sees one. He calls them "spawn of Shelob". He still jumps out of his seat at seeing Shelob in ROTK. He insists that the Mirkwood spiders should be stepped upon and mashed flat.

In Reply To
In fact, I wonder (looking down the road a ways) how any of the creatures are going to 'talk', like the raven Roac. I'm a little concerned. I hope it's a mind-thing, because I just can't escape my visions of Mr. Ed, the talking horse, when I was growing up. Okay. I'll stop there.



I actually rather hope they end up not talking, I have to admit. A talking dragon, fine. But I just really don't think talking ravens and thrushes fit with the Middle-earth that PJ has shown us so far. I'm hoping he can find away to stay true to the spirit of the birds helping out but without showing them actually talking.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 8:49am

Post #10 of 64 (914 views)
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*not thinking about Thorin revealing anything* [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(where *does* he keep that key so neither the goblins, nor the elves are able to find it?),

I figure we don't want to go there... Wink

In Reply To
I've been wondering about the state of Mirkwood. Radagast's scenes made it clear that the Necromancer's effect on Mirkwood is very recent and rapidly increasing - rather than the long, slow decline portrayed in the books. If the elves have found themselves suddenly under siege by 'dark forces', any strangers roaming the forest are likely to be treated with suspicion, if not down-right hostility. The elves want answers to what's going on, and the dwarves' refusal to give any good account of themselves will be infuriating, and possibly seen as an assumption of guilt. As far as the elves know, they could be in league with the baddies, or responsible for stirring them up. Add to this the charm and tact with which Thorin is known for in his dealings with elves and we've got ourselves a powder-keg Wink.



Interesting point that the Elves may not really know what's going on, and that they're wondering where these dark forces are coming from. It hadn't occurred to me that maybe they think the Dwarves, showing up so unexpectedly as they do, could have something to do with it! And yes, if the charm and tact Thorin showed to Elrond (whom he had no particular reason to dislike except on principle) is any indication, the meeting between him and Thranduil ought to be epic. At least Gimli had Aragorn to rein him in when he started spouting off at Haldir; only Gandalf might be able to thwap some sense into Thorin, but he'll be nowhere near. Can't wait to see that play out.



In Reply To
I am looking forward to seeing how Thorin responds to captivity. In the book, Thorin is completely isolated and nearly broken by the time Bilbo finds him. Movie-Thorin is so driven and action-oriented, I can only imagine the sort of melt-down he may experience under those circumstances, with nothing to fight except his own fear of failure.



I'd be surprised if he doesn't have some sort of epic meltdown in response to being thrown in the dungeon. After all he's been through and all the indignities he's put up with over the years, surely being thrown in prison by the person he hates most has got to be the biggest insult of all? I'm thinking I'm going to be pretty sympathetic towards his reactions to the presence of Thranduil when they're all holed up in Erebor before the Bo5A and Thranduil shows up with his army.


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 27 2013, 11:07am

Post #11 of 64 (884 views)
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I didn't think we had seen any shots of Bilbo in and/or on top of any barrels. [In reply to] Can't Post

Apart from when he was being pushed around by the crew?


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 27 2013, 11:08am

Post #12 of 64 (926 views)
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I'm still convinced that .... [In reply to] Can't Post

As in the book, Beorn will check out the Companies story. He will go up to the cliff top, find out they were telling the truth, and bring back the Oakenshield.

I don't like the whole metaphorical business it is supposed to represent.

Tongue


glor
Rohan

Feb 27 2013, 11:25am

Post #13 of 64 (907 views)
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Thranduil not recognising Thorin.... [In reply to] Can't Post

It could be done in the film if Thranduil initially pretends not recognise Thorin, as some kind of haughty belittlement, a mocking of Thorin as a King without a Kingdom. It could mirror the Goblin Kings exchange with Thorin thus re-enforcing Thorin's pompousness.


axecrazy
Rivendell


Feb 27 2013, 1:15pm

Post #14 of 64 (842 views)
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the plot [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just grateful I don't have wait three years between films, as is usually the case with most big trilogies.

I think the most important plot point in the next film will probably be Gandalf's encounter with Thrain. I can see far reaching ramifications for individual character arcs and general plot going forward due to that meeting. It all depends on what they do with the character. Is he going to be a mere footnote or something much more? I hope that meeting will be chock full of revelations for the audience and Gandalf. I can see so many lines of convergence during that meeting, not only for The Hobbit, but for LoTR as well.

There's also the issue of the Rings of Power. One of the few things I was sort of dissatisfied with was the lack of mention in AUJ of the effects the Rings have on Dwarves. I mean this is kind of important, and I'd like to see it emphasized somehow. Gandalf's meeting with Thrain is key here. It's the only point in the story I can see it being addressed directly. I just hope the meeting plays out the way I hope it will, because I am definitely not a fan of some vague mental illness running in the line of Durin.




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 27 2013, 3:16pm

Post #15 of 64 (802 views)
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I absolutely hate spiders! [In reply to] Can't Post

We have tons of Black Widows here. I hate them hate them hate them. I kill them on the spot when I see them. They always lurk in the shadows and dark places looking for an opportunity to make my life miserable.

Having said that, I wonder if we will get Bilbo's full rendition of Attercop Attercop. I would LOVE to see Freeman do that as Bilbo. I think that would be terrific. And the best part is we get to see Sting get it's name. That is going to be a stellar moment and you just know the audience will be cheering when it happens.

I can't wait for the conflicted Thorin either in Thranduil's caves. You just know he's going to go OFF on Thrandruil when he meets him. I cannot wait for that scene and RA's voice is going to really be great there, deep and menacing.


elaen32
Gondor

Feb 27 2013, 3:30pm

Post #16 of 64 (777 views)
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I always felt... [In reply to] Can't Post

that this was what was going on in the book. Thranduil is immortal and has been in his realm for a long time, seeing many dwarf lords come and go. It seems inconceivable that he has no inkling that this interloper might be at least likely to be of Durins line. So I always feel Thranduil is pretending not to know who Thorin is, probably with a mixture of motives, some good, some not so good.

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 27 2013, 3:50pm

Post #17 of 64 (878 views)
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Oh yes, I think Thorin will want to give Thranduil some dwarvish iron [In reply to] Can't Post

right up his jacksie!!

"I'd be surprised if he doesn't have some sort of epic meltdown in response to being thrown in the dungeon. After all he's been through and all the indignities he's put up with over the years, surely being thrown in prison by the person he hates most has got to be the biggest insult of all? I'm thinking I'm going to be pretty sympathetic towards his reactions to the presence of Thranduil when they're all holed up in Erebor before the Bo5A and Thranduil shows up with his army."

And being thrown in Thranduil's prison is just the icing on the cake. Yup. "That'll do it," as the Goblin King said. Then for him to have the audacity to show his face at Erebor before the Bo5A after all this! Of the two demands that Thorin had before he'd be willing to parley - laying down their arms and sending the elf King packing - I think the latter was the bottom line. He not only humiliated Thorin, not only betrayed him and the dwarf kingdom, but sides with those coming to demand part of the booty of Erebor (justified or no). Yeah, Thranduil just hasn't shown himself in the best light. (Jerk. Or maybe he's just a bit dim-witted and doesn't really have a great handle on things....I mean, look at his son Legolas. Nice fighter, yes, but not the brightest bulb in the box. Oh just kidding folks. I'm not hating on Legolas. Well, okay. Maybe I'm hating on Thranduil a bit.)

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

(This post was edited by Old Toby on Feb 27 2013, 3:55pm)


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 27 2013, 3:52pm

Post #18 of 64 (772 views)
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Oh I hope you're right DanielB! [In reply to] Can't Post

and it makes sense to me that he would find it and bring it back. I don't know about the metphorical business. I think it would just be a decent gesture, not reading anything into it.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 27 2013, 3:54pm

Post #19 of 64 (774 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think you need to do much more than trespassing. How this will play out will be interesting, because they won't have time for a history lesson -- again -- on why they don't like each other. I wish they would do something with that, about the Elder Days, but it really can only be explained in a book to any degree. Given more time and thought I suppose I could come up with some sequences, but...the animosity or distrust might simply be that Thorin is going to stir up the dragon by his actions. But that's only if Thranduil guesses why he's going east, which he's smart enough to guess.

It's pretty weak to base it on Thranduil turning away instead of helping them at Erebor. This is kind of a weak piece of the first film for me. What was Thranduil doing with an army there anyway? Out on maneuvers? Anyone that looks at a map will see it's pretty far to march or ride an elk. The dragon flew in and beat the living whatever out of Dale and the dwarves in a few hours, maybe. But I digress.

In fact, all of this could have been taken care of with one lines by Gandalf, a neutral party, in AUJ, perhaps saying something to Bilbo: "There's never been much trust between dwarves and elves, and in these times, all peoples are estranged..." or something like that. Then you've established the dwarf/elf rivalry at least in Bilbo's mind and the audiences. The rest can be inferred by references to old grudges, troubles with Sauron in the past, etc.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 27 2013, 4:08pm

Post #20 of 64 (880 views)
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Thranduil [In reply to] Can't Post

I always thought he was a jerk in the book. Seriously. I can't wait for that scene at the wall probably in film 3 i suspect. Thorin is going to be beside himself. Sending Thrandy away has to be schadenfreude for him in a big way.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 4:14pm

Post #21 of 64 (793 views)
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A question deserving of its own thread... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Was just thumbing through the edition of The Annotated Hobbit that's currently living by my laptop (here's an aside question for you: how many copies of The Hobbit do you have in your house, and where are they all living right now?) and got into Flies and Spiders.



By my count, I have five copies/versions of The Hobbit, in total, not counting related reference works.

1. The green, leather-bound, slip-cased edition from Houghton Mifflin.
2. The Rankin-Bass animated film on DVD.
3. The Mind's Eye radio dramatization on CD.
4. The Eclipse Comics/Ballantine graphic novel adapted by Charles Dixon with Sean Deming, illustrated by David Wenzel.
5. The Annotated Hobbit annotated by Douglas A. Anderson.

At various times I have also possessed the Ballantine softcover, the BBC radio dramatization, the Mind's Eye/NPR version on cassette, and the comic-strip adaptation that ran in Children's Digest in the early 1970s, drawn by Lester Abrams who would go on to be a character designer on the animated television-movie and the animated adaptation of The Return of the King.

I expect that the role of the Master of Lake-town will be expanded; the addition of the new character Afrid suggests as much. The role of Bard also looks to be expanded beyond what Tolkien wrote, although perhaps not in the way that I originally expected.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 27 2013, 4:18pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 6:06pm

Post #22 of 64 (732 views)
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Thorin won't keep quiet I am sure [In reply to] Can't Post

Watch out for those Widows, Ham Sammy. Yucko. I was bitten a long time ago by a Brown Recluse. Still have a big scar from it.
"Going off...indeed!"
You know based on what I expect to be Thorin's inevitable reaction to Thranduil I have a hard time seeing how he WON'T be recognized in the film. I very much doubt film Thorin is going to be able to "say nothing" like book Thorin, especially since we have the conflict set-up shot already with Thranduil turning away. (Been thinking about the schematics of how they would have gotten ther in time, as Rostron points out....can only speculate that from a writing perspective that Smaug was seen to be "stirring" in the North [maybe dragons need lots of stretch time, hit the snooze button a lot, needed extra lattes to wake up?] and that Erebor was a likely target. Just idle speculation.)
Having seen a shot of RA with webs in his hair, standing with other Company members, I would guess they will all be taken at once. Though they might separate them in the cells so Thorin can still end up alone.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 27 2013, 6:08pm)


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 27 2013, 6:22pm

Post #23 of 64 (705 views)
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That's interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

Where's the shot of RA with web standing with the others?


marillaraina
Rohan

Feb 27 2013, 6:28pm

Post #24 of 64 (699 views)
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I do wonder [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder how the separate cells thing will be shown to affect the dwarves. The dwarves are portrayed as being very close to their friends/family. They may fight and tease but they are also very protective. I mean how will Bofur take it being separated from his brother and cousin and Kili and Fili are practically joined at the hip, we saw how they looked when they were separated by the Stone Giants. And there is Dori and his fussing over Ori.

So I wonder if, assuming they are all put into separate cells and possibly not all near each other, Jackson will deal with that at all. I also wonder if Thranduil will do it for that reason. Not just for practical purposes of being easier to house and control his prisoners but because knows it'll hurt the dwarves to be separated from what are most likely at least some of their kin?


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 6:40pm

Post #25 of 64 (721 views)
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Set stills [In reply to] Can't Post

Found them on YouTube, by LegoHobbitBoy (The Hobbit: Desolationj of Smaug/There and back Again, NEW PICTURES)
Starts with Bard. Then shows first a shot of the Company, including a slimmer Bombur, and then a thunderous looking Thorin also webbed up standing with them.
It also appears to show Legolas against greenscreen with Orcrist........ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope this isn't restricted info...not sure of its origin but its authentic. its been up for at least two weeks on YouTube.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 27 2013, 6:45pm)

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