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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Thorin took work where he could find it, laboring in the villages of men

AshNazg
Rohan


Feb 26 2013, 1:05pm

Post #1 of 13 (1022 views)
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Thorin took work where he could find it, laboring in the villages of men Can't Post

Am I right in assuming what Thorin is forging at Dale is the Black Arrow? If so, what significance will this have later?

The way I read it is that when Thorin was looking for work he met and was employed by Bard's family as a blacksmith. Here he made the Black Arrow for the very purpose it is used in the story and as such its destiny is later fulfilled - this gives Thorin more involvement in an area of the story that he's otherwise absent.

Thoughts?


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 26 2013, 1:15pm

Post #2 of 13 (560 views)
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The shot was after Dale was destroyed [In reply to] Can't Post

And more than likely just one of many random settlements in Middle-earth. Plus, it was a sword.

Laugh


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 26 2013, 2:42pm

Post #3 of 13 (496 views)
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Dale was destroyed by Smaug... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Am I right in assuming what Thorin is forging at Dale is the Black Arrow? If so, what significance will this have later?

The way I read it is that when Thorin was looking for work he met and was employed by Bard's family as a blacksmith. Here he made the Black Arrow for the very purpose it is used in the story and as such its destiny is later fulfilled - this gives Thorin more involvement in an area of the story that he's otherwise absent.

Thoughts?



When would Thorin's wanderings have taken him to Dale at the right time to forge the Black Arrow belonging to Bard's family? Smaug destroyed Dale right after he occuped Lonely Mountain. The survivors of Erebor probably didn't start working for Men just to scrape by until after crossing the Misty Mountains. It was never even confirmed that Bard's arrow was made by Dwarves. The odds that Thorin crafted the Black Arrow are incredibly long.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 26 2013, 4:48pm

Post #4 of 13 (412 views)
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That would be a shift [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be a way to arc in Thorin more to the story, but it's farfetched.

It's dangerous to quote book canon here versus movie canon, but the line is "if ever you came from the forges of the King under the mountain...blah blah..." Meaning it was made when the kingdom was thriving.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 26 2013, 10:36pm

Post #5 of 13 (311 views)
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Also... [In reply to] Can't Post

If the arrow was forged under the Mountain then it was (as previously discussed) a relic of Girion's time, if not earlier. Another part of Bard's speech:


Quote
You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old.



Prior to Smaug's attack, Thorin was probably too young and inexperienced to have crafted such a masterwork weapon. I do think that the workmanship of the arrow should suggest that it was of Dwarvish make.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Feb 27 2013, 6:18am

Post #6 of 13 (229 views)
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well now... [In reply to] Can't Post

I never thought of that....

thanks for the insights!

Go outside and play...


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 7:39am

Post #7 of 13 (242 views)
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And oh, did he look good doing it. [In reply to] Can't Post

What? Someone had to say it! Cool


Angharad73
Rohan


Feb 27 2013, 8:01am

Post #8 of 13 (231 views)
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In complete agreement... [In reply to] Can't Post

It had to be said!
I just wish that sequence had been a little bit longer. Only so that we could see in more detail what exactly he was making there, of course... Tongue


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 27 2013, 8:07am

Post #9 of 13 (241 views)
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Longer, purely for empirical purposes. *Ro nods knowingly* [In reply to] Can't Post

One should never stint when undertaking research. The longer, the better...

You do realize that Thorin was originally supposed to be shirtless in that scene, right? As per the Weta Chronicles book. Given that he's laboring over that hot forge, it's only natural he'd want to lose as many layers as possible.


Angharad73
Rohan


Feb 27 2013, 8:23am

Post #10 of 13 (241 views)
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Sigh... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I know... That would have been interesting. Those tattoos would have needed closer inspection. Purely as a reference to Dwarvish culture, naturally... All in the interest of research.


Esmeralda
Bree


Feb 27 2013, 2:23pm

Post #11 of 13 (189 views)
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I think it would be cool if... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the arrow that takes down Smaug was shown to have been made in the mountain that the dragon despoiled, crafted by the dwarves he ravaged and displaced. I love that kind of poetic justice.

I suppose it could have been forged during Girion's reign - if 5 or 6 generations of men could be considered "of old". So there is a remote possibility that a very young Thorin could have made it - perhaps a simple iron arrow wouldn't be too challenging for a talented dwarf princeling? (Why do I have a picture of his parents sticking his designs on the fridge along with Dis' fingerpaints and Frerin's etchings of uneven Cirth-script?)

The anvil-scene in the movie is great - showing a powerful dwarf-lord reduced to laboring for others. It encapsulates so much of where Thorin is at the beginning of the quest:

"A great anger without hope burned him, as he smote the red iron on the anvil." Appendix III - Durin's Folk

I'm also curious about the filming itself - in LotR, the commentary said they used actual hot metal for the forging scenes, so I'm wondering if Richard was actually hammering a white-hot bar of iron - while wearing prosthetic hands. Challenging much?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 3:39pm

Post #12 of 13 (184 views)
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I agree that it would make for a nice 'Easter egg' [In reply to] Can't Post

We could see a flashback of Dwarven smiths working under the Mountain and 'just happen' to glimpse the Black Arrow. Perhaps the following sequence shows the arrow as part of a shipment being sold in Dale when the city was still prosperous.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


sharku
Rivendell

Feb 28 2013, 5:56am

Post #13 of 13 (122 views)
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Arrow making [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It would be a way to arc in Thorin more to the story, but it's farfetched.


Don't you mean 'far-fletched' Laugh


(This post was edited by sharku on Feb 28 2013, 5:57am)

 
 

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