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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
pre filming industrial information released
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 26 2013, 1:09am

Post #1 of 36 (1053 views)
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pre filming industrial information released Can't Post

As we all know Sir PJ & Co had to deal with industrial action prior to the commencement of filming. Much of that correspondence has just been released and I have had a cursory read of some of it. This is of course a debate that got heated and arguments were drawn along political lines. As is common the true context of comments are lost in the media and it is impossible to form an accurate opinion of what has happended.

I am not an ardent Sir PJ fan although I do admire many aspects of what he has acheived and all I can say from what I have read is that he, Fran, the Government and even the studios come across as being transparent in their dealings with each other.

Now I have seen in full some parts of the correspondence it is clear to me that partial representation of some of the comments, which I had earlier seen in the media, which were variously made by Sir PJ, the government and the studios were described in innaccurately unfavourable context.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 26 2013, 1:54am

Post #2 of 36 (575 views)
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Link to story and the files, [In reply to] Can't Post

right here.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 26 2013, 2:42am

Post #3 of 36 (535 views)
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Interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

But it still doesn't explain what the unions were complaining about. Not enough Union jobs? Pay scale too low? Too many hours of work?


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 26 2013, 2:49am

Post #4 of 36 (545 views)
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They wanted people to be contractually considered employees [In reply to] Can't Post

while still retaining selected benefits that would be afforded contractors i.e. the best of both worlds. So much anger about this, so much that cannot be said in public.


Moahunter
Rohan


Feb 26 2013, 5:46am

Post #5 of 36 (499 views)
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What cannot be said in public? [In reply to] Can't Post

Afaik the unions wanted the right to negotiate collectively.
If you are employed as a contractor you can't do that.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 26 2013, 8:36am

Post #6 of 36 (452 views)
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There was much more to it than that. [In reply to] Can't Post

To simplify it to that sole issue is far from a complete picture.


cameragod
Lorien


Feb 26 2013, 9:28am

Post #7 of 36 (452 views)
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What the unions wanted [In reply to] Can't Post

was the control of the residuals and a 15% cut of them.

All artists are prepared to suffer for their work, but why are so few prepared to learn to draw? :BANKSY


"A Cameraman without a camera is just a man." Stephen Press


Glorfindela
Valinor

Feb 26 2013, 11:34am

Post #8 of 36 (414 views)
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What are residuals? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Owain
Tol Eressea


Feb 26 2013, 3:57pm

Post #9 of 36 (370 views)
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Residuals are... [In reply to] Can't Post

 a payment made to the creator of performance art (or the performer in the work) for subsequent showings or screenings of the (usually filmed) work.

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 26 2013, 4:41pm

Post #10 of 36 (342 views)
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Thanks folks [In reply to] Can't Post

That makes much more sense. I knew it had to be a money trail. Interesting about the residuals.


Glorfindela
Valinor

Feb 26 2013, 5:35pm

Post #11 of 36 (329 views)
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Thank you, Owain [In reply to] Can't Post

...for the explanation.

Ask me about book publishing and I can (probably) provide you with an answer. In the book publishing industry these are known as royalties (though these may not have quite the same meaning in my profession as residuals do in the film industry).

Ask me about film terms and I am a complete novice. Wink


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Feb 26 2013, 5:38pm)


Owain
Tol Eressea


Feb 26 2013, 7:11pm

Post #12 of 36 (297 views)
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Sure, no problem.// [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Moahunter
Rohan


Feb 26 2013, 7:41pm

Post #13 of 36 (304 views)
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Council of Trade Unions statement. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Hobbit sunshine welcome
Tuesday, 26 February 2013, 5:04 pm
Press Release: Council of Trade Unions
CTU Media Release
26 February 2013
Hobbit sunshine welcome
The release today of another group of Hobbit documents is welcomed by the CTU and we thank the Ombudsmen for ordering they be made available.

Helen Kelly, CTU President says "the documents confirm that the dispute was settled on the 18 October well before Warners came to New Zealand and before Wellington film workers were told on 20 October that they should demonstrate to lift the boycott. Minister Gerry Brownlee now needs to explain to the public why he too joined in this fiction."

"Clearly the Government and Warners chose to retain this fiction to justify the deal they subsequently made, including the huge unfairness of changing employment law. The documents confirm that Mr Brownlee was of the view the laws should not be changed but despite this went ahead with the law change."

"We now call on the Government to release the final bit of information, the legal opinion it received from Crown Law on this dispute. There is no reason that this is not being made available."


Moahunter
Rohan


Feb 26 2013, 7:46pm

Post #14 of 36 (311 views)
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What the unions wanted......... [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you give use the source of your statement?


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 26 2013, 11:33pm

Post #15 of 36 (278 views)
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It's in the documents released yesterday [In reply to] Can't Post

not directly from the union but conveyed by others as what had been discussed by the union.

Has anyone addressed the status or the various organisations on the "union" side of this debate and their legal right or otherwise to act in the way they did?


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Feb 26 2013, 11:36pm)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 26 2013, 11:48pm

Post #16 of 36 (276 views)
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No, and I'd love [In reply to] Can't Post

to see any and all documents coming from Simon Whipp and the MEAA. I seem to remember that when all of this went down, there was some indication that not only was he acting "on behalf" of NZ Equity, but he took some major actions, such as calling for the boycott, completely without their knowledge. If true, that lends credence to PJ's assertion that all of this was the result of his attempt to corner the Australasian actor's market and grab as big a piece of the control and the profits of the NZ film industry as he could. The memo that said that Warners received a very favorable offer to film in New South Wales caused my eyebrows to head for the sky. Even the Warners exec noted the "irony" of that. That was pretty blatant.

In addition, Whipp was the only one of the major players in this who did not make public statements. He made all his moves behind the scenes and let everyone else do the arguing in public. I want to see some documentation from the MEAA and Helen Kelly next. It's all very well for Kelly to praise the release of her opposition's files - let's see the same transparency on the other side.

Silverlode






ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 27 2013, 2:31am

Post #17 of 36 (253 views)
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An aussie trying to underarm bowl us [In reply to] Can't Post

who'da thunk it.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Feb 27 2013, 2:32am)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 3:38am

Post #18 of 36 (252 views)
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I don't see how this changes anything [In reply to] Can't Post

The letter from Carolyn Blackwood (New Line Cinema) dated October 12, 2012 is significant. They were interested in exploring legislative and possible economic solutions to their issues. She noted the irony that one place they were considering moving to was repped by MEAA, but that there was labour peace there (through existing contracts, as is the case almost everywhere else they were considering as well).

The many letters from "Peter and Fran" are inflammatory. There is one from PJ dated October 18, 2010 that acknowledges the "blacklist will be lifted tomorrow" (paraphrase). That was sometime before the emergency session of parliament IIRC.

Finally the Stuff.co.nz is hardly balanced and its timing perplexing. At this point, even I would just like to see this issue go away. Water under the bridge and all that.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 3:43am

Post #19 of 36 (242 views)
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Here you go -- [In reply to] Can't Post

This from April 2011 lays out Kelly's position thoroughly, with ample documentation.


Moahunter
Rohan


Feb 27 2013, 4:49am

Post #20 of 36 (228 views)
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That's known as Chinese Whispers. [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course the Government always has legal right on its side cos' it can change the law in its own favour.


Starling
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 4:50am

Post #21 of 36 (242 views)
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Stuff is not the most reliable source, [In reply to] Can't Post

but I'm not sure what you mean about the timing being perplexing. Can you elaborate?


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 6:08am

Post #22 of 36 (235 views)
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Perplexing [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess it comes down to why now? With AUJ quit theatres, the Oscars just behind us, it seems all that is left for us is waiting for the next film, and perhaps some set reports from the filming due to continue soon.

Why bring this issue back to the public? Even the general elections are past (Key one seat shy of a majority IIRC)... just seems odd is all, especially for such a lopsided report.


Starling
Half-elven


Feb 27 2013, 6:40am

Post #23 of 36 (231 views)
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As far as I understand, [In reply to] Can't Post

there is no significance in the timing, it's simply that the ombudsman ruled that the information should be released. If I remember rightly, the Council of Trade Unions always wanted the information in the open. Radio New Zealand wanted to report as much of the full story as they could, but were denied the information. They requested the information under the Official Information Act, and the ombudsman ruled that it should be released. So it's just that the process has taken this long.

I shall keep my views on John Key and Gerry Brownlee to myself to save everyone's sanity. Crazy


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 27 2013, 8:58am

Post #24 of 36 (216 views)
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You keep your opinion about them [In reply to] Can't Post

what about your opinion of Simon Whipp.


cameragod
Lorien


Feb 27 2013, 9:30am

Post #25 of 36 (214 views)
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Well to me [In reply to] Can't Post

Simon Whipp tried to do what he said he would in Empire magazine and that was go after the Hobbit.
Unfortunately he did it in such a way that any goodwill anyone might have had was well and truly nuked.
Then by the time the CTU and Helen became involved, no matter how noble their intentions, it was in a radioactive environment, not helped by them backing Whipp even after he had been caught out being less than truthful.
The whole thing was a mess and we could argue endlessly about what could have been handled better by whom.
But what is important is that the emails show everything PJ was saying in private was the same as what he was saying to us in public.
Peter didn't lie and for some reason that matters to me.

All artists are prepared to suffer for their work, but why are so few prepared to learn to draw? :BANKSY


"A Cameraman without a camera is just a man." Stephen Press

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