Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Who gets the Arkenstone?
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 20 2013, 10:24pm

Post #26 of 43 (164 views)
Shortcut
Thanks Ham Sammy. I'll look in to it. :-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 20 2013, 10:25pm

Post #27 of 43 (165 views)
Shortcut
I posted the link [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's the Empire magazine one. I'm pretty sure that's it.


Kirly
Lorien


Feb 20 2013, 10:55pm

Post #28 of 43 (169 views)
Shortcut
Shirehorse is right [In reply to] Can't Post

i have found the "it's racist" argument quite bizarre myself.

As for the Arkenstone, while it wasn't mentioned in writing in the contract, no one argued the point when Thorin said it was his. No one. By not speaking up and demanding it either be added to the contract or the claim is null and void, they have all implied their consent. Furthermore, whatever happened to people be bound by their words by their honor rather than demanding that every detail no matter how momentous and obvious nor how tiny must be in writing?

My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


Kirly
Lorien


Feb 20 2013, 10:58pm

Post #29 of 43 (163 views)
Shortcut
is that really so unimportant to you? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
wasn't legally wrong, just morally wrong



it's not illegal to do a lot of morally wrong things. your comment implies, to my reading, that a moral wrong is unimportant / of no consequence to you.

My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


Kirly
Lorien


Feb 20 2013, 11:03pm

Post #30 of 43 (156 views)
Shortcut
I think that is an opinion rather than something you can know, without Tolkien quotes [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Had Bilbo taken the stone and broken the rules, he would say "Bilbo, I'm using your share to buy back the stone because you broke the rules of the contract." He wouldn't say he was betrayed, he would say the contract was betrayed. It would have been a very convenient, easy out had it been there for the taking.

and you know this how exactly? Is there some writing of Tolkien or some interview which says that?


My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


Kirly
Lorien


Feb 20 2013, 11:09pm

Post #31 of 43 (155 views)
Shortcut
That's the way I remember it too... [In reply to] Can't Post

that Balin folded it up and we never saw it again in AUJ. Of course, many events occur "off screen" (we don't see them going to the restroom but surely they must have - bad, extreme, but obvious example) so perhaps Balin returned it to him and we just didn't see it.

My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


Marionette
Rohan


Feb 20 2013, 11:14pm

Post #32 of 43 (158 views)
Shortcut
Morally, it´s Thorin´s but... [In reply to] Can't Post

That´s a good point. Maybe if there´s no legal willing, the Arkenstone theorically can be anyone´s.

But, morally it belongs to Thorin.

Bilbo knew that, he knew it belongs to Thorin but also he knew he has rights over it.

Seriously, all this is very complex.


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 20 2013, 11:52pm

Post #33 of 43 (150 views)
Shortcut
Not to wade into an ants' nest here... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"Take it that I have disposed of my share as I wished, and let it go at that!" "I will," said Thorin grimly. "And I will let you go at that-and may we never meet again!" Then he turned and spoke over the wall. "I am betrayed," he said. "It was rightly guessed that I could not forbear to redeem the Arkenstone, the treasure of my house. For it I will give one fourteenth share of the hoard in silver and gold, setting aside the gems; but that shall be accounted the promised share of this traitor, and with that reward he shall depart, and you can divide it as you will. He will get little enough, I doubt not. Take him, if you wish him to live; and no friendship of mine goes with him."

It doesn't get any clear then that. Thorin decides to use HIS share to buy back the stone. Had Bilbo taken the stone and broken the rules, he would say "Bilbo, I'm using your share to buy back the stone because you broke the rules of the contract." He wouldn't say he was betrayed, he would say the contract was betrayed. It would have been a very convenient, easy out had it been there for the taking.



but I think that quotation from the book is quite clear that the share of treasure that Thorin promises to set against the Arkenstone is BILBO's share, not Thorin's. To wit: "For it I will give one fourteenth share...; but that shall be accounted the promised share of this traitor...". Thorin at that point intends Bilbo to go home with nothing but the mithril shirt on his back (which I'm sure he would have liked to remove from Bilbo if he could have), and whatever the Elves and Men choose to give Bilbo out of the share of treasure exchanged for the Arkenstone.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 21 2013, 9:39am

Post #34 of 43 (129 views)
Shortcut
Bomby doesn't care? [In reply to] Can't Post

BOT MINE
from Badali jewelry
....80 buck-A-Roonies

Its Mine
It is..

Bomby has it
In a pocket
& carries it
everywhere!

(get your OWN Rock?)


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 1:36pm

Post #35 of 43 (105 views)
Shortcut
If I have a sword in my hand [In reply to] Can't Post

And them claim I want an object, and you know that I'm pretty crazy about this object, would you say something? Note I'm really crazy, and am perfectly willing to murder you for this object.

By not speaking up and demanding it either be added to the contract or the claim is null and void, they have all implied their consent.


Please name one time in the history of real life or literature where not saying something means you consent to something. Sorry, life doesn't work that way. Note that Thorin did not say "anyone who says nothing agrees to give their consent", so examples in that format will not work. I would of kept quiet too, I wouldn't want physical confrontation.

Furthermore, whatever happened to people be bound by their words by their honor rather than demanding that every detail no matter how momentous and obvious nor how tiny must be in writing?

If honor was so binding, then they wouldn't have had a contract to begin with.



(This post was edited by stoutfiles on Feb 21 2013, 1:36pm)


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 1:40pm

Post #36 of 43 (101 views)
Shortcut
Common sense. [In reply to] Can't Post

nd you know this how exactly? Is there some writing of Tolkien or some interview which says that?

Why would be angry when he wouldn't be footing the bill to get the stone back? He gets the stone back and the Hobbit who he now hates leaves with nothing. It's so perfect that, had it been an option, it would have been the obvious option.

Thorin does not fight this and uses his money instead, because he knows he has been legally defeated. He was betrayed morally, not legally.



stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 1:52pm

Post #37 of 43 (99 views)
Shortcut
Good point. [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess he can't use Bilbo's share if it was given away to begin with! You'd think he'd still be fine with the arrangement then, if Thorin intended for the Arkenstone to be his 1/14 share. Everything works out perfectly in this situation: instead of the money going to Bilbo whom he hates, it goes to the Men and Elves, whom he also hates but they have armies and are willing to fight. I guess logic goes out the windows when Thorin is scheming to keep all the treasure for himself.


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 21 2013, 4:13pm

Post #38 of 43 (99 views)
Shortcut
Nice lawyering [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't change that it's going to end up buried with Thorin. So, now we need a discussion about wills and trusts. Discuss.


Kirly
Lorien


Feb 21 2013, 6:07pm

Post #39 of 43 (81 views)
Shortcut
Adverse possession// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


Kirly
Lorien


Feb 21 2013, 6:13pm

Post #40 of 43 (82 views)
Shortcut
More opinion. Where is the proof please? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 8:27pm

Post #41 of 43 (69 views)
Shortcut
Big difference [In reply to] Can't Post

With adverse possession you have to both physically claim it (not the same as calling dibs) and it can be taken back from you when the party with legal rights reclaims it in a certain period of time (not the same as calling dibs). What Bilbo did would almost be adverse possession except for the fact that the Arkenstone is legally part of the treasure, and it considered equal with the rest of it.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 8:30pm

Post #42 of 43 (85 views)
Shortcut
Did he not admit defeat [In reply to] Can't Post

And let Bilbo leave unharmed? Was the Arkenstone worth more than 1/14 of the treasure on the open market even though it was proved it wasn't due to the successful trade back? Did the contract ever cover that Thorin got the Arkenstone to himself?


macfalk
Valinor


Feb 21 2013, 10:33pm

Post #43 of 43 (90 views)
Shortcut
The Arkenstone has different value to different people [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see the "proof" anywhere of how much the Arkenstone is worth.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.