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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Gandalf in Dol Goldur

emre43
Lorien

Feb 21 2013, 1:54pm

Post #1 of 11 (798 views)
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Gandalf in Dol Goldur Can't Post

I don't know if this has been mentioned before (apologies if it has), but has anybody noticed in the first trailer that when Gandalf is walking through Dol Goldur he is carrying Glamdring. This doesn't make sense as he gave the map and key to Thorin at Bag End, yet, him having Glamdring when he confronts Thrain means he met him after Trollshaws. Crazy


Lindele
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 2:27pm

Post #2 of 11 (459 views)
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In those shots [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf is in the High Fells, which happens after Rivendell as the rest of the company goes through the mountains. There is a lot about this in The Hobbit Chronicles book.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 21 2013, 3:25pm

Post #3 of 11 (379 views)
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We don't know though at what point that scene occurs [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't know that the scene in Dol Guldor occurs during the time he found Thrain. It could be from film 2 or 3. I agree that would be an error if it is at the time before they were in the Trollshaws though.


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Feb 21 2013, 7:35pm

Post #4 of 11 (322 views)
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Im afraid that Gandalf being at both highfells and Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

Take place in PJ universe after Rivendell. I suposse that Gandalf met Thrain perhaps before Azanulbizar. I dont know.

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Feb 21 2013, 7:52pm

Post #5 of 11 (350 views)
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It was meant to be a flashback initially... [In reply to] Can't Post

 from what Boyens said in an interview on it - that they'd tried to fit the Gandalf/Thrain scene in Bag End but it didn't work...

http://www.vulture.com/...y-in-the-hobbit.html


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






Lindele
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 8:12pm

Post #6 of 11 (284 views)
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Actually [In reply to] Can't Post

you are right, there is a shot of him in Dol Guldor, must be after Trollshaw!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 21 2013, 11:37pm

Post #7 of 11 (251 views)
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Not in all of them. He is only in the fells in those corridor shots, All the other shots, [In reply to] Can't Post

and all of the ones with Glamdring, as well as those with Thrain, are in Dol Guldur. When we see him walking alone with Glamdring at the ready, that is a scene in Dol Guldur.

In Reply To
Gandalf is in the High Fells, which happens after Rivendell as the rest of the company goes through the mountains. There is a lot about this in The Hobbit Chronicles book.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Michelle Johnston
Lorien


Feb 23 2013, 3:43pm

Post #8 of 11 (140 views)
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There's so much we still don't know [In reply to] Can't Post

Allthough a quote from CEOT3K its perfectly applicable to the Thrain story arc.

What we do know is Gandalf visits Rhudaur and the High Fells after the White Council (Hobbit Chronicles). It is not entirely clear from those elements in the first trailer whether he has Glamring, though of course he does. There is a section in the 2nd trailer (Gandalf losing his footing in a tunnel and emerging on a high ledge) where he appears not to, is this his first meeting with Thrain which Pippa is referring to in Moria or a descent toward the Tombs?

My guess now is when G leaves the company, alerted by Radagast and his own visit to the tombs, he travels to Dol Gulder and encounters Thrain alive and deranged, Bolg his torturer and discovers the true meaning of the necromencer for himself echoing elements of the appendices. I suspect the remaining material from trailer one is that Dol Gulder material.

I would not be at all surprised if Thrain is the prologue to Part II. The dialogue between T & G and passing of the key and the map to Gandalf for safekeeping would recapitulate the main plot and his incarceration after the Battle of A launches the sub plot.

What I have decided is to avoid any trailers going forward I really want the story to unfold on the big screen spontaneously. I rarely see trailers for the vast majority of films I view in the cinema and I was very pleased to see Skyfall on that basis.

I will probably need handcuffing and medication to subdue my curiousity but I am going to have a go.

I tried to save the shire , and it has been but not for me.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Feb 23 2013, 3:44pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 23 2013, 6:40pm

Post #9 of 11 (381 views)
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And I am still not entirely certain that Gandalf and Thrain in Dol Guldur, and Gandalf with Glamdring in Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

aren't two seperate events. Phillip said, I think, that they wanted to include Thrain in the prologue of An Unexpecetd Journy, but were confounded by pacing and timing. The sword is not visible in the Thrain clip, and may not be present. It may be that there is a Thrain prologue from an earlier visit to Dol Guldur, in which, perhaps, Gandalf finds Thrain the prisoner of what is seemingly only a squatting orc band, but no evidence of clear Wraiths or THe Necromancer. This would lend itself to him saying to Radagast that the fortress is abandoned (if he drove the orcs out), but still being wary, as though the other Wizard's words conform to a pre-existing suspicion that he had.

The return journey with Glamdring would be where he would himself encounter the darker denizens of Dol Guldur, and escape (hopefully after and impressive magical confrontation. . . a bit of a lift, perhaps, of his battle against the Nine on Amon Sul).

Of course, I do not know one way or the other. We can only hope, speculate, and wait and see. lol

In Reply To
Allthough a quote from CEOT3K its perfectly applicable to the Thrain story arc.

What we do know is Gandalf visits Rhudaur and the High Fells after the White Council (Hobbit Chronicles). It is not entirely clear from those elements in the first trailer whether he has Glamring, though of course he does. There is a section in the 2nd trailer (Gandalf losing his footing in a tunnel and emerging on a high ledge) where he appears not to, is this his first meeting with Thrain which Pippa is referring to in Moria or a descent toward the Tombs?

My guess now is when G leaves the company, alerted by Radagast and his own visit to the tombs, he travels to Dol Gulder and encounters Thrain alive and deranged, Bolg his torturer and discovers the true meaning of the necromencer for himself echoing elements of the appendices. I suspect the remaining material from trailer one is that Dol Gulder material.

I would not be at all surprised if Thrain is the prologue to Part II. The dialogue between T & G and passing of the key and the map to Gandalf for safekeeping would recapitulate the main plot and his incarceration after the Battle of A launches the sub plot.

What I have decided is to avoid any trailers going forward I really want the story to unfold on the big screen spontaneously. I rarely see trailers for the vast majority of films I view in the cinema and I was very pleased to see Skyfall on that basis.

I will probably need handcuffing and medication to subdue my curiousity but I am going to have a go.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Michelle Johnston
Lorien


Feb 24 2013, 2:19pm

Post #10 of 11 (166 views)
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The Key To This ..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is not the key and the map its Thorin. As you know my great joy in AUJ are the three character driven story arcs. Everything in this movie happens for one of two reasons:-

1) Homage to Tolkien.

2) Substantiating Bilbo, Gandalf and Thorins character development.

In the B Of A flashback we see the triangulation of the Thror/Azog/Thorin story line. What we are missing is the story of Thorins father and the emotional repurcussions for Thorin.

At the end of AUJ that began to emerge through the revelation to Thorin that Azog is still alive and that Azog knew Thrain.

Very early on in film 2 Thorin will try and establish the meaning of what he experienced and Gandalf who knows will make him aware. This will set up the Thrain/Azog/Thorin story line only increasing the emotional stakes.

Where did Gandalf obtain the map and the key from Thrain.

Why was Bolg featured at the Battle of A and looked to be in the reshaped movie based on the late advertising.

Why was Azog at the Watch Tower of Amon Sul, like the Nazgul 60 years later, looking for activity om the Great Road.

Why when Gandalf obtained the key was he not aware of the Nazgul and the N M which have been discovered by Radagast.

Maybe because Thrain was captured by Bolg at the Battle of A with the map and key and was incarcerated either at DG or M. Gandalf encountered Thrain reclaimed the map and key from Bolg but was unable to rescue Thrain but not before the enemy had become aware of their existance and the families desire to reaquire Erebor.

Cinematically it would be simpler if the initial incarceration was at Moria. It would then mean Gandalf's real time visit to D G was his first on the back of Radagast and where he discovers Thrain now driven mad by the N M and ringless with the story slipping into the logic of the appendices. The first encounter could be at Moria or a D G inhabited by Bolg but to present that in the second movie as back story when you have already seen Radagasts visit to DG would be more complicated than Moria particularly to the more casual viewer.

I tried to save the shire , and it has been but not for me.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Feb 24 2013, 2:19pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 25 2013, 2:29am

Post #11 of 11 (129 views)
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A majority of this seems likely to me as well. [In reply to] Can't Post

Very well thought out and stated, and I largely agree.

THough I wouldn't want to deal too much with Moria without acknowledging the true reason that it became a place of Ancient Dread, i.e. Durin's Bane, slayer of their great Ancestor King (reincarnated), the greatest Terror unto the dwarves in The Third Age, the true cause for their inability to retake Moria after Azanulbizar, and the active initiator of their first great exile (the one which led them to Erebor). Of course, since in the films Gandalf and The Wise Know the Demon captain is there, and since in the book Dain speaks powerfully, and dread overwhelmed, of his presence, I hope they do manage to sort that.

Back to Dol Guldur, Azog, Bolg etc. Agreed.

In Reply To
Is not the key and the map its Thorin. As you know my great joy in AUJ are the three character driven story arcs. Everything in this movie happens for one of two reasons:-

1) Homage to Tolkien.

2) Substantiating Bilbo, Gandalf and Thorins character development.

In the B Of A flashback we see the triangulation of the Thror/Azog/Thorin story line. What we are missing is the story of Thorins father and the emotional repurcussions for Thorin.

At the end of AUJ that began to emerge through the revelation to Thorin that Azog is still alive and that Azog knew Thrain.

Very early on in film 2 Thorin will try and establish the meaning of what he experienced and Gandalf who knows will make him aware. This will set up the Thrain/Azog/Thorin story line only increasing the emotional stakes.

Where did Gandalf obtain the map and the key from Thrain.

Why was Bolg featured at the Battle of A and looked to be in the reshaped movie based on the late advertising.

Why was Azog at the Watch Tower of Amon Sul, like the Nazgul 60 years later, looking for activity om the Great Road.

Why when Gandalf obtained the key was he not aware of the Nazgul and the N M which have been discovered by Radagast.

Maybe because Thrain was captured by Bolg at the Battle of A with the map and key and was incarcerated either at DG or M. Gandalf encountered Thrain reclaimed the map and key from Bolg but was unable to rescue Thrain but not before the enemy had become aware of their existance and the families desire to reaquire Erebor.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

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