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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Elrond and Glamdring
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IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Feb 12 2013, 4:56pm

Post #1 of 36 (1241 views)
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Elrond and Glamdring Can't Post

Does anyone else find it curious that when giving the histories of Orcrist and Glamdring, Elrond does not mention that Glamdring belonged to his grandfather? It is undoubtedly true that Tolkien didn't have the connection in mind when he wrote TH, but it might have been fun if this tidbit had been included in the screenplay.

That gives rise to another question: since Glamdring is an heirloom of his house why is Elrond so uninterested in recovering it?


Angharad73
Rohan

Feb 12 2013, 5:51pm

Post #2 of 36 (710 views)
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From a practical POV... [In reply to] Can't Post

... maybe this fact was left out of the movie for copyright reasons? From what I understand PJ & Co. don't have the rights for the Silmarillion...

From a more whimsical and purely speculative POV, perhaps at his age Elrond has learnt to let go of things, even if they are heirlooms of his family. And after all, he is giving Glamdring not just to anybody but to Gandalf. Who better to give it to?


Arandir
Gondor


Feb 12 2013, 6:38pm

Post #3 of 36 (648 views)
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Yes, it's due to the copyright [In reply to] Can't Post

I read an article (forgot what it was exactly) in which in detailed how PJ and Co avoided using any particular names and references to 'The Silmarillion' - one of which was this particular scene.

'The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey' Review


The White Wizard
The Shire


Feb 12 2013, 7:37pm

Post #4 of 36 (592 views)
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I think you are right. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you are right. They did not have the rights to any books other than LOTR and TH. In fact, when Gandalf says he has forgotten the name of the two blueses it is because their names are not mentioned in those two books although they are mentioned in other books.

True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 12 2013, 7:53pm

Post #5 of 36 (571 views)
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Not at all [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always considered it a minor plot hole when that fact was added later on. Acknowledging it in the movie would have been a poor choice.

"And this is...well this is my grandfather's sword, Glamdring! Where did you find this? I'll be keeping this by the way, thank you for returning it to me. Is that Orcrist? I'll be keeping that as well, thank you."


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 12 2013, 7:56pm

Post #6 of 36 (610 views)
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Doubtful, Narsil is housed there [In reply to] Can't Post

And it's broken. I would imagine Elrond cares a great deal for important weapons, especially since he appears to be a history buff. Note I'm only speaking about the movie situation.


(This post was edited by stoutfiles on Feb 12 2013, 8:00pm)


Angharad73
Rohan

Feb 12 2013, 8:06pm

Post #7 of 36 (583 views)
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Narsil is different, though [In reply to] Can't Post

Narsil doesn't have anywhere to go - yet - since Aragorn isn't ready to for it and the right time to reforge it has not come. So it makes sense that a sword that cannot be used - because it is broken - is stored somewhere safe. And once the time comes, it is remade and given to it's rightful owner.

Glamdring was lost and has been found by someone who is worthy of having it. So it has somewhere to go and a job to do.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 12 2013, 8:12pm

Post #8 of 36 (558 views)
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But it's on display [In reply to] Can't Post

Something that someone who is proud of historical things would do. I bet if he had his families swords he'd show them off as well.

As for letting his family heirlooms be used, Elrond surely wouldn't want that. He doesn't approve of this quest, remember? It would make more sense for him to take the swords just to make sure they don't go on the suicide quest.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 12 2013, 8:24pm

Post #9 of 36 (577 views)
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Would have been a mistake if he did [In reply to] Can't Post

Turgon-----Idril------Earendil-----Elrond, therefore great grandfather


Angharad73
Rohan

Feb 12 2013, 8:26pm

Post #10 of 36 (568 views)
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Swords are to be used [In reply to] Can't Post

Otherwise, what use are they? Narsil, though, cannot be used in its broken state - might as well put that somewhere. And the place where it is has always looked more like an altar to me than a real display. Or maybe I'm wrong and Elrond is actually running a museum on the side. Rivendell doesn't finance itself, does it? Tongue

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that Glamdring and Orcrist both are in usable state. Elrond himself has a sword (if his daughter is not currently borrowing it), so he has no immediate use for another. So Glamdring and Orcrist might as well do what they were made of, which is kill orcs and goblins, instead of lying about somewhere. And as one of the Istari, Gandalf certainly is worthy of carrying one of the heirlooms of Elrond's house. I'd say it's not just the present quest that Elrond hands it over for but he expects Gadalf to keep it for whatever mission he has to accomplish.

Now, the fact that he gives Orcrist to Thorin is a far bigger leap of faith, because Elrond knows what Thorin is going to do and doesn't approve of it.


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Feb 12 2013, 10:49pm

Post #11 of 36 (496 views)
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How right you are [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't count on my fingers high enough. Not enough hobbit in me I guessSmile


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 13 2013, 1:19am

Post #12 of 36 (468 views)
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Agreed on both, though it seems that the Appendices would allow one to trace [In reply to] Can't Post

Earendil to Turgon?

Definitely agreed about the later. I also felt it was a show of goodwill towards the Dwarves. It is not surprising that Elrond would not contest Gandalf just about anything, within reason. But it was more significant that he essentially gives his blessing to Thorin wielding a sword of his kin. And I do think there is much of the wisdom of being able to let go. As Frank Sinatra was quoted as saying upon giving a casual acquaintaince a pair of expensive cufflinks that they admired, "If you can't give it away, you don't own it. It owns you."

In Reply To
... maybe this fact was left out of the movie for copyright reasons? From what I understand PJ & Co. don't have the rights for the Silmarillion...

From a more whimsical and purely speculative POV, perhaps at his age Elrond has learnt to let go of things, even if they are heirlooms of his family. And after all, he is giving Glamdring not just to anybody but to Gandalf. Who better to give it to?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Feb 13 2013, 3:13am

Post #13 of 36 (453 views)
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Narsil has a future [In reply to] Can't Post

it is waiting, being kept safely on display, awaiting for the return of a King to take it up, remake it and use it against the Enemy.

I get the idea, from the book and the movie, that Elves aren't as attached to their weapons or those of their ancestors. Perhaps because Elves are immortal, they do not see the past as quite as distant as men. To Elrond, Glamdring didn't belong to far distant ancestors through hundreds of generations, it belonged to his great-grandfather.

And yes, I agree with you too!

In Reply To
So Glamdring and Orcrist might as well do what they were made of, which is kill orcs and goblins, instead of lying about somewhere.


'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


(This post was edited by Aragalen the Green on Feb 13 2013, 3:15am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 13 2013, 4:53am

Post #14 of 36 (431 views)
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There would also be, in Elrond the wise, a knowledge of Feanor, and of what being too attatched [In reply to] Can't Post

to the works of one's hand, or the works of one's father can lead to.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 13 2013, 2:01pm

Post #15 of 36 (374 views)
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Not seeing it [In reply to] Can't Post

I get the idea, from the book and the movie, that Elves aren't as attached to their weapons or those of their ancestors.

The fact that the weapon is named, and that he knows who it belonged to, shows that Elves ARE attached to their weapons and family history.

Even if we ignore that though, it still makes no sense that Elrond would let his family's weapons be used on a quest that he doesn't approve of.


Mahtion
Rivendell

Feb 13 2013, 2:52pm

Post #16 of 36 (376 views)
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Read the inscriptions [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I get the idea, from the book and the movie, that Elves aren't as attached to their weapons or those of their ancestors.

The fact that the weapon is named, and that he knows who it belonged to, shows that Elves ARE attached to their weapons and family history.

Even if we ignore that though, it still makes no sense that Elrond would let his family's weapons be used on a quest that he doesn't approve of.


Elves of the passing ages are continually letting go of their greatest attachment, the land of Middle earth. Of course the elves of the 1st age were possessive and proud but it cost them dearly. Many of the elves remaining in Middle earth are either too young or let go of events that occurred millennia ago.

Elrond never knew Turgon or had seen Gondolin. He appreciates his family history and collects historical artifacts but would not fight free peoples to claim them. In the book and movie Elrond reads the inscriptions on two swords which he has probably only heard in legend or lore, despite belonging to his kin he has no desire to possess these weapons as shown.

We can look at Finrod who gave his family ring to the ancestors of Beren or Galadriel giving the light of Earendil to Frodo as indications of the elves ability to give away treasures and personal items of immense value. This of course only presents a precedence for this behavior but we can see that this in Elrond's character. In those cases the heirlooms were presented as gifts condoning the actions and motives of the recipients. Obviously Elrond doesn't want the Dwarves to stir up trouble but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be honored for Thorin to wield Orcrist.

Even if we go by the movie Elrond says he knew Thror and has been trying to extend his good will towards Thorin. His attempts are meant to mend Thorin's elf hatred and reinforce the perception of Elrond as a great host. Therefore we see that Elrond has many more reasons to give the blades away then to keep them. Elrond would keep the swords for personal and historical value but he would rather let Thorin keep Orcrist and Gandalf Glamdring because it is in his nature to be generous, it behooves him as a host of his house, it serves as a token of good will in memory of Thror, and the swords have greater purpose serving those who need them rather than collecting dust.


Angharad73
Rohan

Feb 13 2013, 3:22pm

Post #17 of 36 (363 views)
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Gandalf and Glamdring [In reply to] Can't Post

By giving Glamdring to Gandalf, Elrond might also be acknowledging the bigger picture. He is not giving him the sword to use in the dwarves' quest. He is giving him the sword for whatever the future will bring. And as Elrond is well aware of who and what Gandalf is, he might see it more as giving him a worthy weapon for whatever purpose Gandalf has in Middle Earth.

Now, the same, obviously, does not apply to Thorin and Orcrist. That is generosity on Elrond's behalf. Or perhaps it is indeed a foreshadowing of the elves leaving Middle Earth and all that is in it behind, which might include weapons forged in Middle Earth. Maybe Elrond considers it time that Orcrist becomes someone else's heirloom.


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Feb 13 2013, 3:51pm

Post #18 of 36 (397 views)
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Lost for how many centuries/millenia? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me Elrond (and his father and any other relations who might stand to inherit these belongings) have long given the sword up for lost. So he has not (at least for a very, very long time) had any active interest in recovering the sword. Had he ever even seen it, or was it lost before he was born?

Then it shows up (along with another Elven blade to which Elrond may not have any direct connection, and whose "rightful" heir may not even be known) in the possession of his guests, who have come by them in a legitimate way, claiming them from a Troll hoard defeating said Trolls. I do not find it strange he did not demand these swords or attempt to take them away by force. Nor would I describe it as "generous" - I find his behavior that of an honorable host. He might have asked Gandalf for the sword based on his relationship to its original owner, but I think he does not actually feel any sentimental tie to it (as I doubt he has given it any thought for an Age), so I do not find this odd either.


cats16
Valinor

Feb 13 2013, 3:58pm

Post #19 of 36 (351 views)
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I wonder [In reply to] Can't Post

if we might see a line in the EE reference to this in anyway. LOTR EE's had plenty of extended scenes, not just entire scenes excluded from the theatrical cut. Maybe, maybe not.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 13 2013, 4:37pm

Post #20 of 36 (340 views)
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Or the best answer [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien added these facts to the swords after the Hobbit and it's now a minor plot hole. There is just no way that Elrond would have let Thorin use his families weapon for this quest, at the very least without acknowledging how generous he is being by letting him do so.


Angharad73
Rohan

Feb 13 2013, 4:46pm

Post #21 of 36 (340 views)
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Clearly... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I'm not going to convince you that elves just might be more generous than other folks Tongue But I do like to take an argument and run with it Angelic


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 13 2013, 6:46pm

Post #22 of 36 (321 views)
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Just don't think he would be invested [In reply to] Can't Post

in a sword. Its a matter of perspective. Thousands of years of seeing magnificent swords....his father is that star over your shoulder...and of all the Elves Elrond the kindest (kinder than summer. We finally see it here.) Doubt he would fuss at all over a blade like we mortals do. And if the blade goes forth to good service of ME at large that would matter more to him than possessing it.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 13 2013, 10:08pm

Post #23 of 36 (352 views)
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An amendment. Elrond's relation to Turgon is not off limits to the filmakers, as it can be drawn from The Appendices. [In reply to] Can't Post

They mention that Idril, mother of Earendil, was the daughter of the Elven King Turgon of Gondolin. The appendecies also mention, in the language portion, that Galadriel is the sister of Finrod Felagund, who was king in Nargothrond.

In Reply To
I read an article (forgot what it was exactly) in which in detailed how PJ and Co avoided using any particular names and references to 'The Silmarillion' - one of which was this particular scene.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 13 2013, 10:11pm

Post #24 of 36 (305 views)
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Perfectly stated, Mathion. And thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

for sparing me the trouble of writing something like this, which I was considering. lol. Your explanation mirrors, almost to the letter, my thougts on the matter.

In Reply To

In Reply To
I get the idea, from the book and the movie, that Elves aren't as attached to their weapons or those of their ancestors.

The fact that the weapon is named, and that he knows who it belonged to, shows that Elves ARE attached to their weapons and family history.

Even if we ignore that though, it still makes no sense that Elrond would let his family's weapons be used on a quest that he doesn't approve of.


Elves of the passing ages are continually letting go of their greatest attachment, the land of Middle earth. Of course the elves of the 1st age were possessive and proud but it cost them dearly. Many of the elves remaining in Middle earth are either too young or let go of events that occurred millennia ago.

Elrond never knew Turgon or had seen Gondolin. He appreciates his family history and collects historical artifacts but would not fight free peoples to claim them. In the book and movie Elrond reads the inscriptions on two swords which he has probably only heard in legend or lore, despite belonging to his kin he has no desire to possess these weapons as shown.

We can look at Finrod who gave his family ring to the ancestors of Beren or Galadriel giving the light of Earendil to Frodo as indications of the elves ability to give away treasures and personal items of immense value. This of course only presents a precedence for this behavior but we can see that this in Elrond's character. In those cases the heirlooms were presented as gifts condoning the actions and motives of the recipients. Obviously Elrond doesn't want the Dwarves to stir up trouble but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be honored for Thorin to wield Orcrist.

Even if we go by the movie Elrond says he knew Thror and has been trying to extend his good will towards Thorin. His attempts are meant to mend Thorin's elf hatred and reinforce the perception of Elrond as a great host. Therefore we see that Elrond has many more reasons to give the blades away then to keep them. Elrond would keep the swords for personal and historical value but he would rather let Thorin keep Orcrist and Gandalf Glamdring because it is in his nature to be generous, it behooves him as a host of his house, it serves as a token of good will in memory of Thror, and the swords have greater purpose serving those who need them rather than collecting dust.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 13 2013, 10:21pm

Post #25 of 36 (308 views)
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I have to disagree./ [In reply to] Can't Post

Behaving in that way, especially considering how the dwarves came by those swords, would have only served to reinforce movie Thorin's distrust of Elves, and would also have made Elrond seem like a petty, obnoxious person and a poor host. It would have hearkened more to the manner of Thingol when he was away from the restraining and enlightening counsel of Melain, or of some of the sons of Feanor (behaviours influenced first by the taint of Melkor The Morgoth, whose lies and dark emotions infected them in their despite, though they hated him, and later influenced by the Doom lain by Mandos). Elrond was of entirely different temperment. Most of what he did he did with the well being of the wider world in mind, and he was very much like a steward, and his kinship to Melain, and his close friendship to Gandalf, as well as his own lore knowledge, almost certainly enhanced that aspect of his being. Narsil he kept, not as a vaunted treasure, but as an heirloom to be bequeathed to his far kin, the mortal kings of Arnor, if and when a time should come for them to reclaim their kingship. Vilya he kept for its safety and for the preservation of his realm. But nothing in his nature ever suggests a covetousness, nor the sort of greed and desire for baubles and troves that sometimes afflicted elves like Thranduil and Thingol, nor did he seem to suffer from the excess of pride that had afflicted the likes of Feanor and his sons, Thingol, and to some measure even Galadriel.

In Reply To
There is just no way that Elrond would have let Thorin use his families weapon for this quest, at the very least without acknowledging how generous he is being by letting him do so.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 13 2013, 10:24pm)

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