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Laerasėa
Tol Eressea
Feb 11, 1:03am
Views: 514
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Tolkien Notes: Intro, Language, and flaws in The Hobbit
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Can't Post
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For those of you who missed it last week, I posted about taking a Tolkien seminar, and offered to share some notes each week from the class. I do want to make a couple of disclaimers before I begin:
1. I am, of course, not the expert here-- I am going to try and avoid giving basic objective information because I don't have sources other than my professor to cite, and while many of the facts/quotes I have here are from texts that we will be reading in the course, there are several we haven't read yet, and I don't want to post things that I haven't read (or read in a while) myself. So, instead, I am going to focus more on big ideas, themes in the course, and discussion topics. I haven't done something like this before, so bear with me until I figure out how to better organize this kind of thing!  (and feel free to give advice or ask questions or make requests about topics-- I'm cutting a lot of notes out in doing this, so the content of these posts is very much subjective, on my part)
2. I am not reliable. Anybody who even remotely knows me knows this. I plan on having this be kind of weekly, but stuff comes up sometimes, I'm incredibly busy with classes and grad school/job applications, and it may happen that I miss a week here or there, and that'll just be me being me. I will try and let you know if I'll be gone for a week.
Basic Intro, Language
So, to start, we have reading the works of Tolkien through the lens of four threads of his life that shaped his works:
1. Tolkien's own personal experience
2. His obsession with language
3. "Asterisk Worlds"
4. His theory of fantasy
By "asterisk worlds," what our professor described had to do with word origins being associated with world origins. In the dictionary, next to most words, there is a word with an asterisk next to it, which is the root or whichever word you're looking up-- she called that the "asterisk" word. Logically, there had to be a culture in which that asterisk word existed. For example, she took the word "lunatic"-- and pointed out that the origin of that word, luna is Latin for "moon." In our culture, there is no association between the moon and being crazy, but that must have been the case at some point, based on that word. She called that the "asterisk world"-- a hypothetical world, based on languages and "philology."
It's also what Tolkien calls the "secondary world," in On Fairy Stories.
I knew that language was important to Tolkien, but I hadn't looked at it in this way before. I guess if I want to make this a discussion, I would interject here with a question-- where in Tolkien's fiction work do you see worlds created by language? Do you have any thoughts on the role/usage of philology in TH, The Sil, or LOTR?
Flaws in The Hobbit
The first work we read in the course was The Hobbit, mainly because our professor saw it was Tolkien teaching himself how to create a mythology. She called TH a "deeply flawed" work, partly because it is practically negated at points by On Fairy Stories, but also because it doesn't end in the same way it begins. Some specific problems that we addressed:
1. Lapses in narration-- there are several things that don't seem to quite "fit" in Middle Earth that are mentioned in The Hobbit. One of the dwarves mentions, during the scene with the stone giants, that he doesn't want to be punted over the mountains "like a football." There is another mention of Bilbo carrying out an activity in with the same amount of ease that "you or I would go to the post-office."
2. The Rivendell elves are cute/silly, and absolutely not something that we come across at any other point in the Middle Earth mythos. Our professor described them as "Oscar Wilde characters." Elrond is depicted as more serious, but it doesn't even sound like he is actually an elf at all; the text describes him as an "elf-friend."
3. The Mirkwood elves-- they're more serious than the Rivendell elves, but the problem our professor pointed out is that they basically seem like humans. They're greedy, they play tricks, they get drunk, they hunt, etc-- In some ways, they seem just like the people of Lake Town.
4. Animals that talk (in Beorn's house)-- this is Disney, which Tolkien detested. Tolkien never has another talking animal like this again.
So, what do you think of these "lapses"? Do you prefer LOTR to TH because of this, or the other way around? Did you see these as lapses when you read them-- were they jarring to you? (On that note, did you read TH before or after reading LOTR?)
Personally, I always preferred the language of LOTR-- not because it was more serious, because it was more removed from this world, which is one of the reasons I've always loved fantasy.
Next week, I think I'm going to talk more about TH as it relates to Tolkien's theory of fantasy.
"When we can take green from grass, blue from heaven, and red from blood, we have already an enchanter's powerupon one plane; and the desire to wield that power in the world
external to our minds awakes."
--J. R. R. Tolkien
Mozart and Chocolate
(This post was edited by Laerasėa on Feb 11, 1:07am)
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Tolkien Notes: Intro, Language, and flaws in The Hobbit
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Laerasėa
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Feb 11, 1:03am
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Flaws in The Hobbit
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dernwyn
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Feb 11, 1:41am
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Oh dear...
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Laerasėa
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Feb 11, 3:28am
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Hmm?
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Al Carondas
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Feb 11, 4:06am
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No, no, not you!
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dernwyn
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Feb 11, 1:43pm
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I think
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 4:24am
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Ah, language....
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Silverlode
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Feb 13, 7:58am
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I understand
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 3:11pm
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The Hobbit was written for Tolkien's children.
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Elizabeth
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Feb 11, 2:19am
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I don't think I explained it properly
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Laerasėa
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Feb 11, 3:15am
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It *had* to be the same universe as LotR
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Elizabeth
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Feb 11, 4:04am
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I believe also, if i am not mistaken,
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silneldor
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Feb 11, 5:38am
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Long live The Hobbit
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Al Carondas
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Feb 11, 3:21am
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Nope
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 4:35am
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Further to dernwyn's comments
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SirDennisC
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Feb 11, 4:02am
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She is absolutely open to new ideas
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 4:03am
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in regards to replies in this thread...
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Magpie
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Feb 11, 5:10am
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Thank you, M
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 4:46am
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I feel safe in saying
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demnation
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Feb 11, 6:46am
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I was actually under that impression, as well
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 4:05am
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A few comments
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sador
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Feb 11, 2:50pm
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I love Tom Shippey!
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 3:53am
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Good for you!
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sador
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Feb 13, 5:18pm
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And there is more...
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Otaku-sempai
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Feb 11, 4:51pm
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Wow!
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 3:32am
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This Great Fun
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IdrilofGondolin
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Feb 11, 7:50pm
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Thank you!
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 3:24am
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Excited to follow your class!
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Menelwyn
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Feb 11, 9:27pm
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Good to see you here :)
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Laerasėa
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Feb 13, 4:49am
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Laerasea my dear,
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silneldor
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Feb 12, 3:18am
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I find more flaws in LOTR than in TH. //
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macfalk
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Feb 13, 10:28am
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I know you do. :-)
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Magpie
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Feb 13, 2:35pm
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Well, even Tolkien, himself, had issues with 'The Hobbit'.
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Otaku-sempai
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Feb 13, 3:44pm
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I am aware of this
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macfalk
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Feb 14, 12:43pm
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But those first few chapters are so good!
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imin
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Feb 14, 12:53pm
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Which problems with LotR really bother you?
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Otaku-sempai
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Feb 14, 12:53pm
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It's hard to put it to words
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macfalk
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Feb 14, 12:58pm
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Well, I can see where an inablility to relate to the main character could be a problem.
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Otaku-sempai
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Feb 14, 1:07pm
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On the Other Hand
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IdrilofGondolin
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Feb 14, 4:51pm
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okay, here's a question... since we're talking about anachronisms in language
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Magpie
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Feb 13, 2:41pm
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To lapse or not to lapse? That's a question? ;)
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grammaboodawg
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Feb 14, 3:49am
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