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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Negative thread about the movie
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JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Feb 9 2013, 5:13am

Post #51 of 86 (255 views)
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Directors [In reply to] Can't Post

Please help me understand how that relates to critics expecting better from a director, or how a layperson should not expect any better from their surgeon than they could do theirself?


Escapist
Gondor


Feb 9 2013, 5:18am

Post #52 of 86 (244 views)
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Gladly [In reply to] Can't Post

critics expecting better from a director:
step one: First of all, you need to define what "better" is before expecting it and in the area of entertainment, I predict that what you will find is that this is not standardized and the consequences are not at all anything like the consequences of a surgeon making an error.
step two: Let's not be hasty and move on to step two until step one is completed. Once you reach a unanimous and objective agreement about what good film is for everyone everywhere then let me know so we can continue this conversation sensibly.


layperson expecting better from a surgeon:
The surgeon can't make mistakes because if he does then he is likely to be responsible for egregiously maiming/hurting/killing another person, something he takes oaths about and great amounts of insurance for the inevitability of since he accepts on some level that he is human after all.


Actually, I think that these two things might not have that much to do with each other at all.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Feb 9 2013, 6:21am

Post #53 of 86 (244 views)
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Not The Point [In reply to] Can't Post

The reason you say they don't have much to do with each other is that's not what I was responding to. The common error is saying we can't criticize a movie unless we can do better ourselves. This is bad reasoning. Of course we can't do better, and such reasoning is meant to squelch ALL opinion - specifically here - except between people who can make movies and make them better. But I can certainly know what I don't like about a movie without knowing how to make one just as much as I know when a surgery is botched.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Feb 9 2013, 8:09am

Post #54 of 86 (240 views)
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nope, its logical reasoning compared to.... [In reply to] Can't Post

comparing a director of a motion-picture to a surgeon. Peter goofed eh?? so i take your not going to see the two sequels right?? haha, yeah you will be in the front row opening night only to post afterward that smaug didn't have enough screen time...


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


imin
Valinor


Feb 9 2013, 11:42am

Post #55 of 86 (232 views)
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The customer is always right [In reply to] Can't Post

So therefore i agree with you that the previous logic of you can only complain about something if you have more qualifications/talent than the person doing it is ridiculous for something which is subjective like film.

Many people love this film, many dont. This is in comparison to the many who loved lotr films and the lesser number who disliked the films.

That is really the only difference is the number of people liking and disliking the film - its disappointing to both Tolkien laymen and Tolkien fans but for different reasons (for the ones who find some aspects disappointing).

For me i preferred the film more because it is based on M-e and Tolkien's work to some extent, if it were not then i imagine i would be more critical because as a film it has some flaws as others have pointed out here.

Other people though just go with the flow when watching a film and so things that could bother them if they stopped to think, dont, which is perhaps a better way to enjoy a movie, though for anything remotely Tolkien related for me, just aint going to happen.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Feb 9 2013, 2:59pm

Post #56 of 86 (236 views)
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Plenty of director out there could have done a better job. [In reply to] Can't Post

The animated version cut out beorn and it could have kept him in.

One long 3h and 20 minutes Hobbit film could have easily been achieved. However, i think two was the appropriate choice. Three is comendable as long as its put to good use, which is what didnt happen : no bilbo in rivendell, azog vendetta stuff, overlong over the top violent scenes, etc...

As to the WC stuff, i could easily do without it, since i havent seen anything particularly interesting. All we have is some minutes of radagast in mirkwood, his ridiculous appearance at the trollshaws and chase and a white council scene that was disappointing.

I could have a hobbit film without that stuff, since it did unbalance the tone of film and wasted time not in favour of the bilbo storyline which is the main thing.

He was, and then he stopped when he was told that it wouldnt be TH.

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Feb 9 2013, 5:11pm

Post #57 of 86 (224 views)
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The Converse [In reply to] Can't Post

Notice that I also implied that, under your reasoning, neither are you permitted to PRAISE a movie unless you are at least equally as skilled and qualified in movie-making. It's a ridiculous concept either way that demands no criticism and no praise from the audience.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Feb 9 2013, 7:48pm

Post #58 of 86 (211 views)
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oh really? [In reply to] Can't Post

so than i would assume you want to make a ban on movie reviews?


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Feb 9 2013, 7:50pm

Post #59 of 86 (211 views)
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"I could have a hobbit film without that stuff", -fine.. [In reply to] Can't Post

than make your pitch to a movie studio and try your luck!


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Feb 9 2013, 7:52pm

Post #60 of 86 (201 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL. How do you figure? I think you have it reversed.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Feb 9 2013, 7:55pm

Post #61 of 86 (204 views)
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my point was not.. [In reply to] Can't Post

you cannot give TH a negative review simply because you have to be a professional director, my point was i see all these people on this forum bashing TH and saying what they would have done if they directed the film. My point is that these people are not professional directors or screen writers but they are acting like it, i don't mind people giving the film a negative review but creating a thread solely for the purpose of bashing TH is ridiculous.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


sador
Half-elven


Feb 9 2013, 7:57pm

Post #62 of 86 (207 views)
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Just because you've asked [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
You really would rather no necromancer/white council just so that the film can "stay true to the book"?


Yes.
Although I must say that the necromancer/white council is (so far) mercifully short. I expected far worse - and was pleasantly surprised.


In Reply To
even though Tolkien once was going to rewrite the book.


Have you read the attempted re-write?
As far as it did get, the was no extra necromancer/white council stuff in it.
Also, in my opinion it is among the least memorable pages Tolkien has ever written. If anything, it should convince one how difficult it is to mesh the two stories together.



However, I agree with you - fans always think they no better, despite having given hardly a couple of hours of thought to it. I am pretty sure that had I tried to adapt The Hobbit to screen, I would have done far worse.
But this doesn't mean the same fans have no right to an opinion.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Feb 9 2013, 8:01pm

Post #63 of 86 (202 views)
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the other thing is too [In reply to] Can't Post

we have not seen the whole trilogy yet, i think until we all see the next two films we really can't be too quick to judge how great or bad TH trilogy is.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Feb 9 2013, 8:04pm

Post #64 of 86 (203 views)
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Balance [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the difference between creating a thread solely to bash The Hobbit and one solely to praise it? It seems symmetrical and balanced to me. Would you remove the negative posts from threads with mixed reviews? If you take those mixed threads apart and reassemble them into two separate positive and negatives threads, what's the difference?

When people say what they would have done if they were the director, they usually mean what they wish the director had done - not that they could literally take their place and do better. It's a manner of speaking, and I think we can understand that without demanding that they submit their own treatment to the studio and become a director before having the right to be critical.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Feb 9 2013, 8:05pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Feb 10 2013, 1:41am

Post #65 of 86 (185 views)
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Youre impossible to talk with [In reply to] Can't Post

if one wishes to have a reasonable and balanced discussion.Unimpressed

For some reason, you seem to be so angry at opinions that difer from yours that you use the "Well then do it yourself " card.

As to the movie, i very much look forward to the fan edit, now that i have seen the Phantom Edit.

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Feb 10 2013, 1:44am)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Feb 10 2013, 1:46am

Post #66 of 86 (184 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

very well said.

People get so vexed and upset over a thread which contains opinions that critisize TH film while threads that just praise it, receive no such response. It only contributes to the not quite so pretty nicknames Our forum already has been acquiring in other places.

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Feb 10 2013, 1:49am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Feb 10 2013, 2:12am

Post #67 of 86 (173 views)
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really?? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
if one wishes to have a reasonable and balanced discussion.Unimpressed

For some reason, you seem to be so angry at opinions that difer from yours that you use the "Well then do it yourself " card.

As to the movie, i very much look forward to the fan edit, now that i have seen the Phantom Edit.


your comparing TH to episode1 now? wow....


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Feb 10 2013, 3:34am

Post #68 of 86 (178 views)
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At no point [In reply to] Can't Post

did i compare TH with SW.

I said : now that ive seen one fan edit, and liked it, i am curious about a hobbit edit. One that cleans the film of over long action scenes and superfluous boxing comabts in the misty mountains etc..

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Feb 10 2013, 3:35am)


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 10 2013, 4:11am

Post #69 of 86 (157 views)
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Let's take a break [In reply to] Can't Post

There's no need to make personal comments.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 10 2013, 10:39am

Post #70 of 86 (146 views)
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Well, that's an argument for criticizing AUJ if ever I've heard one... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd sure hate for people on other forums to be calling us names.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Feb 10 2013, 2:35pm

Post #71 of 86 (137 views)
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You misunderstood [In reply to] Can't Post

the meaning of those words, willingly or otherwise.

Read my comments again and you shall find i didnt say that in order for us to be spared name calling on other threads and acquiring a bad reputation, we Need to critisize TH.

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Feb 10 2013, 2:36pm

Post #72 of 86 (138 views)
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Fair enough [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens

Feb 10 2013, 3:26pm

Post #73 of 86 (148 views)
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Replies, replies for many of you [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi all again I wanted to ansewer the greatest number of posters possible today and I focused in some interesting posts, well I´m sorry if someone has not been answered, and I am not saying that there is a need of answering but I wanted to let you know that I just didn´t want to write a massive post withiout later apreciations to your opinions!;-) I´m tryig to be a loving persn not a loveable or lovely one so I hope that no one gets ofended, here we go!

Hi elevorn well since you seems to be interested in watching some events of the time frame of TH this movie fts your expectations, I understand that. But my post went on discussing two things I feel that can be treated separatedly or even together, that is:

-The film (or the trilogy)as a document that compiles all those events.

-And the film as a film itself, wether as a stand alone or part of a trilogy.

In the first case I would say this is the movie you have been looking for. But then again I can´t help feeling that this makes The Hobbit book a weak favour for it is not adapting it in a claver way. Is copying or adapting in a slightly maner some passages of the book (and that’s why I had the feeling sometimes that the movie is closer to the book than LOTR was). But is adding all that material like an stampede an copresing in in IMO painfull way for the quest of Thorin. For me, an adaptation tries to translate a book into a screen in a clever way, in a way that allows you to feel more confortable, why?

-Well since you ar not allowed by the nature of cinema itself to leave the narration and pick it up later, or even change the place or circumstances where you are receiving all that info, not with a book. A films should feel like a jacket that some has adapted to the circumstances of cinema experience, so is not about changing big things about the story, at least not in this case, I can understand LOTR´S case because is such a longer book. But the point is of touchign the key keys to make the suit fit better onto you.

-That leads me as a film itself. It flaws because for a decission of an unknow nature, though I as said I suspect what kind of nature it is, of adding some material that IS NOT The Hobbit. Since that point we have both, and addaptation and a compression. Sometimes you feel the Hobbit, right. Sometimes you feel some rude guy messing with the main plot and wanting to say things that don’t have an inmediate impact on the point of the story. And since in the tittle says The Hobbit, that doesn´t work for me.
Having as I said some characters out of the screen for such a long time only to have a detour to see things that your budget allowed to show, that fails in a BIG way for me as a movie narration.

But yes I´m pretty glad you apreciate the effort of making a respectfull and interesting discussion,and indeed I´m glad that you enjoyed the film itself.

Hi Ayiana! Well some friend told me this:

-Did you watch this film?
-YES, I ´ve been living in this film for a long time.

That is exactly what I feel with LOTR, even previous to that I knew nothing about the books. There are some huge right decissions on that trilogy. And what I found watching The Hobbit is that it was THE MOVIE who was asking me not to seet anymore, I paid 4 screenings. In the case of LOTR it is me who puts me aside of watching again the movie because my brain has is dose of LOTR trilogy already, all in the trilogy invites me to lose myself into the detail. Not I can say that of TH sadly.
Hi sador! Well here things are getting worse day by day. The other day news anounced that they where going to build this massive casino called Eurovegas and that politicians are changing the law in order to make easier that that multimilionarie bussines man(I don’t remember his mane) can built this mastodont project here. I am sad beause since there is people here suiciding themselves because banks are gonna take away their homes and the government does nothing, instead thay change the law very quickly to allow that a project of unknow nature (again) takes place.
I was very upset at the time when unions tried to disturb around the Hobbit, and I was very glad that the prime minister of NZ change the law in order to atrackt WB and not to them to take the movie to UK. But now I can understand why some people complained. LOTR project started in a very humble way. Not this Hobbit project, and having seen the result hmmmm I´m not shure.
Regaring Arwens decissions at the end they turned out well, and if you remember an interview with PJ on the extras of EE he said that the more they got close to the book the better.
All the best for your well wishes Im glad truly that having this thread going on. Take care.
Hi shadowdog!

Once I said that LOTR movies will improve with the background of Hobbit movies. More weight in the caracters etc. But I feel that AUJ should be able to stand also by its own. Time will tell of course, and I am specting as you to see the whole result ;-)
Hi arthmancer !

Yes that fan filmI saw wouldn’t worked as a stand alone film if it has been released as that. But what I wanted to show is that the material it has been showed to us can be handled in a more clever way(and by that I´m not saying that the fan cut I saw was the unique and definitive version, but IMO it worked better with the material that AUJ was working with), my main point with that fn cut is going back to the state where The Hobbit was going to be two movies, in that scenario that fan cut followed of more story would have worked awesomely well.
Hola Lusitano!

Well we both agree here in many of this so I am not gonna ad very much stuff of what has been said, only one more thing.

In a hole of the ground there lived a Hobbit

A narration with Holm´s voice but not showing him would have worked better. Why?

Plenty of new generations seeing it and that are not supossed to have seen the LOTR trilogy. I saw one little girl with her parents at the cinema in one of those screenings and she was delighted and Im sure she convince her parents to go, Sweet. But they are not supossed to have seen LOTR so, if you show Holm´s voice only regular fans would notice instantly and the new one goers would have no idea if Bilbo is going to survive or not. Since the very first moment you see old Bilbo yu have no tension about Bilbo´s character and a good hook to get on with the fans is lost for there is not that piece of extra care about Bilbo since you know he is going to survive.
He he yes mckfalk the sleepy Bombur for DOS and I think maybe dwarves pulling up Bombur with the ropes maybe for TABA?

Xanaseb, there is no point to make backlash at all, the most negative thing in the bottom of may heart I find is sadness but not hate at all. That sadness comes from love to the film and all the team that is behind the movie. There is a huge will of loving the movie and the two more incoming, and I m wildly hoping that they spark the flame on me again. But there was somethings I thought that must be told.

Hi Sulime! Well Idont think you will be able to find that cut anywhere since there was no intemption to share it at all, it was a job done by video amateurs so. And yes that fan cut is very very interesting for some caraters have a different tone, tha main thing goes around Thorin and Bilbo in a distinct way. I putted the example of the fan cut to base my statements and hw I was surprised that a movie that has been suffered a cut of one entire hour of its length can still going on and working. Despite the tone, the deviations or the tratement. And that after being one open mind (and still being) leaded me to a very huge panorama of questions I wanted to answer.
Hi cats16 Im glad with this thread since there is full of different opinons in a respectfull way as I said. If you a filmmaker let me wish you al the best! Hey and if you are looking for some scripts that may sound interesting hey! I have some ideas around here (not abour TH hehe).
Well I compared TH with LOTR to make an example with a story that occurs in the same world and LOTR was very handy to that. But I could have gone trough that post without naming LOTR for I find that the weakeness of TH is critizable by its own. In the past I said that it wasn’t fair to cmpare them and I was afraid ahtat Pj would do TH into the tone of LOTR but he didn´t and Im glad for that, so I will avoid comparissions between both if I can.
Pettytyrant101 That was so rude and funny in a way, but I don’t like to go over bad films in that way, I tend to love every single piece of art(despite could be a flop) if behind that has been one single soul that has putted some love on the project.
Rostron2 I wouldn’t wanted Guillermo to direct it, I said I felt PJ could be the man and so I say now.
Elostirion74 I feel that even being older effects, LOTR CGI captred my imagination and so I does now, nowadays its very hard to surprise people with CGI when you are representing thing os our common world such as landscapes. I guess that’s why Avatar made such cash, because that was a completely different scenario and averyone was surprised. Very hard times to do something really unique if you are focusing only in CGI.
MouthofSauron I only will say that I wanted to give voice for some negative impressions about the film. I think as I said its very healthy if it is done with respect, nor that is necessary to say why I don’t like the film. That I explain it because I want to start a clever discussion. And I wanted to contribute to TheOneRing´s Hobbit Movie Forum the negative thread that this opened and rispectfull forum diserves.

SirDennisC what was that thing Aragonr told Legolas when Legy told that Aragorn was not a mere ranger?;-) hehehe-

Yes, yes and yes, this movie suffered from a lot of bad decissions and unexpected troubles I fear. I didn´t think about Fili´s actor trouble and consider that 48fps rendering could have being so hard to do is something I didn’t think about. Thanks mi amigo for enlight me a little bit more, and I am not filmmaker at all , at least not professional one, you made me feel so shy hahahaha
Elessar of course if there has been a thread about being negative way with the film but in a disrespectfull way I would have been against it.;-)

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens

Feb 10 2013, 3:27pm

Post #74 of 86 (130 views)
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That´s the point [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 10 2013, 5:23pm

Post #75 of 86 (140 views)
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Bravo, isaac [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I wanted to give voice for some negative impressions about the film. I think as I said its very healthy if it is done with respect, nor that is necessary to say why I don’t like the film. That I explain it because I want to start a clever discussion. And I wanted to contribute to TheOneRing´s Hobbit Movie Forum the negative thread that this opened and rispectfull forum diserves.


In my opinion you should be proud of the way you discussed the things you didn't like about the movie. You definitely did it in a very respectful way and didn't find the need to justify you position by insulting those who made the movie, by implying that everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong, or by implying that people's opinions that differ from yours are inferior. What people don't realize is that doing those things just make their points weaker (no matter whether they liked the movie or disliked it). You presented your opinion intelligently and directly, giving some good examples. That, my friend, is about the best way to contribute here of any, so: well done! Smile

The nature of this board has ebbed and flowed over the months, sometimes having mostly 'negative' threads and sometimes having mostly 'positive' ones. That's just natural. All opinions are welcome here as long as they are presented in a respectful way. Your posts always are. Smile




Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase




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