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stoutfiles
Nargothrond
Feb 8 2013, 2:59pm
Post #1 of 12
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Why didn't they fight Azog?
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When watching the movie the second time, I wonder why they didn't all just fight Azog and his followers? At some point you would think getting chased would be tiresome, and you would set up an ambush.
1. Two wargs attack the Company in the woods. They are both killed immediately. The dwarves are competent at killing.
2. The orcs are not expert fighters. Even Bilbo kills one, and he has no fighting experience whatsoever.
3. Some have long range weapons, and Kili is shown to be a good archer.
4. When the majority of them get out of the tree to rush to Thorin's defense, none of them are hurt by orcs.
5. They have a wizard with them who is powerful enough to kill a Balrog.
6. The Elves hate orcs and killed some for you. Surely they would help you kill the rest with an ambush.
When you force characters into the story, as well as making the dwarves more competent than shown in the book, you create more holes in the logic. This didn't add tension, just confusion.
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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 8 2013, 3:06pm
Post #2 of 12
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I guess PJ made sure they were stuck on the tree in a way that they couldn't get out and help Thorin. Gandalf is sort of making sure Dori and Ori don't fall down, and several of the others are in precarious positions also. I guess it takes a while for Fili, Kili and Dwalin to be able to get down and be of assistance. That's just how it was shown on the movie. Of course, it was different on the book, but I don't want to spoil for people that didn't read the book. Are there people who didn't read the book?
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stoutfiles
Nargothrond
Feb 8 2013, 3:10pm
Post #3 of 12
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Not referring to the tree scene
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That wasn't a good position for them to fight. I'm saying they should have ambushed them during the day, possibly with the Elves, long before the tree scene. By letting themselves be chased, they are constantly putting themselves in unprepared situations.
It was different in the book, but it made sense in the book when it was the goblins chasing them.
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Earl
Forum Admin
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Feb 8 2013, 3:23pm
Post #4 of 12
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Fighting wouldn't have guaranteed they'd all survive would it?
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I suppose because it's a movie we all expect our heroes to survive till the end and emerge out of every fight victorious.
But being "inside the story", the Dwarves probably felt that avoiding a confrontation was the better option than turning around and fighting. As it is they were only 15 of them, sometimes less by 1, and Bilbo couldn't be counted on to fight (and live!) anyway.
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Kimtc
Nargothrond
Feb 8 2013, 3:39pm
Post #5 of 12
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The dwarves generally run away a lot
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You notice the dwarves spend a lot of time running away (whenever Gandalf tells them to run, for some reason I think of Monty Python, "run away!"). Gandalf only tells them to fight when they are in the Goblin cave, probably only because eagles can't get in there. In fact, despite Gandalf's ability to split boulders, flatten goblins, and later kill Balrogs, he tends to deploy this power in a fairly limited fashion--I think he needs to recharge batteries or something. In LOTR, on the other hand, everyone generally seems to be attacking something (except for the Balrog, where they take the general dwarf tactic to make a run for it).
I would also gently suggest that they have not been terribly successful at fighting stuff. Erebor, nope. Azanulbizar, well, yeah, they technically won, but lots of dead dwarves, and they aren't living there, are they? Trolls--even though they seemed to hack, stab and whack them at length, all I saw were a few troll teeth go, no wounds to speak of. With Azog in the trees--when they did finally attack, it didn't go well. They were surrounded until, well, eagles. I think running away is a good plan for this group.
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stoutfiles
Nargothrond
Feb 8 2013, 4:18pm
Post #6 of 12
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Erebor, nope.
Well, a dragon is a different situation altogether. If they were being chased by a dragon the whole movie, I would support them running away.
Azanulbizar, well, yeah, they technically won, but lots of dead dwarves, and they aren't living there, are they?
The numbers weren't exactly equal. If Azog had hundreds of orcs with him I'd support running, but it doesn't look like an army, just another company.
Trolls--even though they seemed to hack, stab and whack them at length, all I saw were a few troll teeth go, no wounds to speak of.
Missing teeth are wounds? To be fair, the dwarves didn't have wounds either. They could have kept fighting had it not been for Bilbo.
With Azog in the trees--when they did finally attack, it didn't go well.
Thorin fought the only competent orc by himself and lost. When the other dwarves (and even Bilbo!) decided to help, they held their own.
They were surrounded until, well, eagles. I think running away is a good plan for this group.
They were very nearly all killed, and it's a problem that could have been solved long ago. Also, don't forget the possible help of the Elves in coordinating a nearby ambush.
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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 8 2013, 4:38pm
Post #7 of 12
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I think their numbers were not enough to fight Azog and his orcs. Also, the Dwarves and the Elves are not in the best terms and they are not going to fight together. Even Elrond is probably not going to join the Dwarves in a semi-war with the Orcs. He is willing to keep them from his borders, but I don't believe he would join any organized venture with the Dwarves at this point. On the movie, he appears to feel that the Orc situation is under control and the Azog's grudge is with Thorin anyway.
Just my opinion.
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Owain
Dor-Lomin
Feb 8 2013, 9:00pm
Post #8 of 12
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When watching the movie the second time, I wonder why they didn't all just fight Azog and his followers? At some point you would think getting chased would be tiresome, and you would set up an ambush.
1. Two wargs attack the Company in the woods. They are both killed immediately. The dwarves are competent at killing.
2. The orcs are not expert fighters. Even Bilbo kills one, and he has no fighting experience whatsoever.
3. Some have long range weapons, and Kili is shown to be a good archer.
4. When the majority of them get out of the tree to rush to Thorin's defense, none of them are hurt by orcs.
5. They have a wizard with them who is powerful enough to kill a Balrog.
6. The Elves hate orcs and killed some for you. Surely they would help you kill the rest with an ambush.
When you force characters into the story, as well as making the dwarves more competent than shown in the book, you create more holes in the logic. This didn't add tension, just confusion.
1. There were only 2 wargs in the woods... they could manage that... they had to... they were right on top of them. They didn't know how many more there were so their instinct was to get to a better position before they made a stand. So they ran knowing there would be more but not knowing how many.
2. Being an expert fighter doesn't mean you can't get killed in battle. The unexpected happens all of the time. And they didn't know what their expertise level was until they faced them. To assume that all fight the same would probably be unwise. Hence sending in warg scouts to test their metal. (Also interesting to note... it was mostly the warriors or experience/trained that really did any of the killing - Thorin, Dwalin, and Kili.)
3. Long range weapons are great if everybody is armed with them and knows how to use them and has an infinite supply of arrows and hits every mark every time.
4. Perhaps the sudden attack at the most dire moment was ... well... unexpected and caught the enemy by surprise. I wouldn't say none of them were hurt but they survived.
5. Indeed, Gandalf is one of if not the most powerful beings in all of Middle Earth. But even if Peter Jackson hadn't' added Azog and Company to the storyline... Out of the Frying Pan, Into The Fire was a standoff in the trees between our beloved company and the goblins/wargs from the Misty Mountains as Tolkien wrote it. Tolkien didn't have Gandalf use his incredible power (the kind that can take down Balrog's) at that point (and many others) in the novel either. Is that a hole in logic or intentional? (Somewhat rhetorical question)
6. I think this denies some of the tension that exists between the dwarves and elves that was laid out pretty clearly in the prologue and developed into Rivendell... and is also apparent in the novel. The Elves weren't aiding the dwarves when they attacked the party that was surrounding the dwarven company at the secret entrance to the Valley of Imladris... they had already been tracking them. And Thorin resisted the assistance of elves and many others throughout the journey for fear of losing the fortune.
Middle Earth is New Zealand!
"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."
(This post was edited by Owain on Feb 8 2013, 9:02pm)
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irodino
Nevrast
Feb 9 2013, 5:10am
Post #10 of 12
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The Istari were not sent to do things for the Free People, Gandalf the Grey was there to help them find their inner strength to deal with things on their own. So, unlike Gandalf the White, Mithrandir had to restrain himself greatly, and only in his final moments on the bridge of Khazad-dum, did he reveal his true power. Other than than, he was trying to appear to be no more than a 'conjurer of cheap tricks', hence the burning pine cones. He only used a little of his powers in uttermost need, when the life of the entire Company was at stake - Trolls, Goblin town, and the final tree encounter. So it is consistent. He was not allowed to attack on his own.
Tolkien didn't have Gandalf use his incredible power (the kind that can take down Balrog's) at that point (and many others) in the novel either. Is that a hole in logic or intentional? (Somewhat rhetorical question)
"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, and the future frightens us. And our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that terrible in-between."
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Owain
Dor-Lomin
Feb 9 2013, 5:37am
Post #11 of 12
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Middle Earth is New Zealand!
"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Feb 10 2013, 3:12am
Post #12 of 12
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And there was the matter of that Balrog.
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Out of sight. . . maybe. . . but not to be counted out all together. Durin and a kingdom of dwarves couldn't stand against him. . . half an army of wounded and weary dwarves would have been doomed before they started if they had passed beyond the gate. Erebor, nope.
Well, a dragon is a different situation altogether. If they were being chased by a dragon the whole movie, I would support them running away.
Azanulbizar, well, yeah, they technically won, but lots of dead dwarves, and they aren't living there, are they?
The numbers weren't exactly equal. If Azog had hundreds of orcs with him I'd support running, but it doesn't look like an army, just another company.
Trolls--even though they seemed to hack, stab and whack them at length, all I saw were a few troll teeth go, no wounds to speak of.
Missing teeth are wounds? To be fair, the dwarves didn't have wounds either. They could have kept fighting had it not been for Bilbo.
With Azog in the trees--when they did finally attack, it didn't go well.
Thorin fought the only competent orc by himself and lost. When the other dwarves (and even Bilbo!) decided to help, they held their own.
They were surrounded until, well, eagles. I think running away is a good plan for this group.
They were very nearly all killed, and it's a problem that could have been solved long ago. Also, don't forget the possible help of the Elves in coordinating a nearby ambush.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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